A Hawaii doctor's wife testifies against him. A dad's retrial in Mississippi. And realtor safety.

[00:02] Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand. It starts with our approach. Every Mazda comes standard with proactive safety features. So you're more aware of what's around you, more focused on the road ahead, and ready before problems ever start. [00:19] Mazda. More of what matters most to you. Go to mazdausa.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse or promote any product. [00:30] Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building. You're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog, HVAC on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering, and 24-7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. [00:56] Grainger. For the ones who get it done. [01:01] Hey, good morning, everybody. You're listening to the Dateline Story Meeting. Let's jump right in here. Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news. Any indication, none motive, nothing yet. They were looking at all of the cases that detective had been on because she had deleted one or two pieces of evidence. A lot of it happens after they figure out who it is, really. [01:21] Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's March 26th, and here's what's on our docket. [01:30] courtroom as a man accused of murdering his daughter's boyfriend stands trial for a second time. And his daughter is the prosecution's star witness. The last time that Caitlin testified, she said she started questioning her dad and he basically told her not to look a gift horse in the mouth. In Dateline Roundup, we're on verdict watch in the trial of the Utah nurse accused of poisoning her best friend. And 15 years after the murder of an Iowa realtor, news of an arrest.

[02:00] Shocked that Ramsey was the person who had been arrested. Plus, how can realtors protect themselves? We've got some safety tips. It's just a little pin behind my necktie. I can be pushing it, sending an alert to the authorities to tell them, hey, I need help. Before all that, we're heading to a courtroom in Honolulu where an anesthesiologist is on trial for attempting to murder his wife with a rock. [02:30] a woman's cries for help pierced the quiet of the Palipuka Trail, a scenic and sometimes treacherous hike overlooking Oahu. Two hikers raced toward the noise and saw a man beating a woman with a rock. They called 911. Hi, someone's currently being attacked on the top of Palipuka. [02:48] There's a man trying to kill her. She's blood all over her face. The man fled and the hikers helped the woman, Ariel Koenig, down the trail. [03:00] at the edge of the forest, it was her husband, Dr. Gerhardt Koenig. Now, Dr. Koenig is on trial in a Honolulu courtroom accused of second-degree attempted murder. He has pleaded not guilty, and his defense says the story is much more complicated. They say, far from being a victim, Arielle is the one who attacked Gerhardt first. On Tuesday, exactly one year since the attack, jurors got to hear from Arielle as she took the stand to tell her story of that morning and what led up to it. I just started screaming because I,

[03:30] trying to knock me unconscious to be able to drag me over that. I just was screaming then. Here to bring us the latest from the courtroom is Hawaii News Now anchor and reporter, Mihailani Richardson. Welcome back, Mihailani. Aloha, Andrew. Good to see you. Before we get to this story, there's been severe flooding impacting Honolulu this past week. I hope you all are staying safe. I know you're covering that as well. That's right. And actually, the judge in the Koenig trial, he thanked the jurors for coming [04:00] able to make it to court despite the flooding. Amazing. So to start, Mihailani, tell us about the relationship between Gerhardt and Arielle Koenig. They've been married since 2018, two young sons together living in Maui. That's right. They live in Kahului, Maui, and they also have a 19-year-old stepson. That's her stepson, his son, Emile Koenig, from a previous marriage. Emile was also living [04:30] right? I mean, Gerhardt was an anesthesiologist, former medical school professor. Ariel worked at a nuclear engineering company. That's right. Highly successful, highly educated. It was this dream-like situation. She was able to work from home while Dr. Koenig was an anesthesiologist going to different hospitals on Maui. The prosecution and defense, they presented very different theories as to what happened that day. Take us through the sequence of events the

[05:00] outlined to the jury during his opening statements. Well, the prosecutor said that they went up this trail, the Palipuca Trail. It's not a very far hike to get up to. And the prosecutor said that Ariel did not want to be there. She felt this unease in being there. And that's what led to this whole confrontation or it was an attack, as the prosecutor calls it. And then as Ariel's [05:30] - Okay. [05:31] at this narrow spot. [05:33] With the cliff behind her, the defendant pushes her backwards towards that cliff. [05:37] They start wrestling. [05:39] They start struggling. [05:42] They start fighting. And he had a syringe in his hand? That's right. Ariel Koenig in her testimony said that in the middle of this alleged attack, he pulled out a syringe and tried to stab her with it, and that he also reached into his bag and pulled out a vial. And so at this point, we don't know what was in that vial. The syringe and the vial were never found by police. [06:12] and then she knocks it out of his hand. So then he moves on to a rock. That's right. She told police that she was hit multiple times by this rock, a jagged lava rock, about 10 times. The defense said that she was hit [06:27] twice. The prosecutor said Gerhardt called his older son, Emil, after he ran off into the forest. What's important about that phone call? Well, it is very important, Andrea, because at this point, it's becoming a he said, she said in a violent attack. Who attacked who? Who started it? This was a FaceTime call. And apparently, Dr. Koenig was seen on camera and his son saw him bloody.

[06:57] to prosecutors, Dr. Koenig confessed to trying to kill his wife, and he was very depressed about it. But according to the defense, it was not a confession in that he was depressed that they had gotten into the situation and that he wanted to end his own life by jumping off the cliff. Oh, my goodness. This is Gerhardt's own son who's going to have to testify against him. That's a lot. So what is the prosecution's alleged motive for the attack? [07:27] marriage. And leading up to the incident, they had been going through couples counseling. He had concerns that she had this so-called emotional affair with her married co-worker. And the prosecution is basically saying that this fueled this rage in Dr. Koenig. The defense, of course, presented a very different version of what happened. That's right. The defense repeatedly has said that this was an attack instigated [07:57] Koenig, that Ariel Koenig tried to push Gerhardt first and that she tried to hit him with the rock. So that was the long buildup to Ariel's testimony on Tuesday. What was your impression of her as she took the stand? I mean, she's facing off with the man she says tried to kill her. Well, she was very stoic. From the moment she walked into that courtroom, she looked straight toward where she was supposed to go. She sat down. All eyes were unheard.

[08:27] And she just looked straight ahead. Can you please state your name? My name is Arielle Koenig. And she answered the questions very clearly and concisely. Let's take a listen to some of that testimony. My back was to the cliff and he's facing me at the cliff. [08:41] What happened next? When I walk up to him, then he grabbed me [08:47] really forcefully by my upper arms. And he said, "I'm so f---ing sick of this s---. Get back over there." And he starts pushing me back towards the cliff. Ariel says it really felt like Gerhart was almost kidding at first. And then for her, she says it turned into a matter of life and death very quickly. That's right. She says that she was only 10 feet or less to that cliff, which drops hundreds of feet. I threw myself onto the ground. [09:16] Because there's a lot of trees and shrubs there so that I could hold on. Can you... [09:21] Tell us what you remember he said as he was on top of you. [09:25] I mean, I'm screaming and he's telling me, shut the up. Nobody's, nobody's going to hear you out here. Nobody's coming to save you. And I'm saying like, you can't do this. [09:36] everyone knows we're on a hike um [09:42] they'll know this wasn't an accident and our kids will be orphans. She talks about this relationship with Jeffrey Miller, the guy from work, and she really downplays it. You know, she's [09:51] Saying yes, I talked to him, but I, you know, it wasn't at all like anything bad. Right. Did you ever have sex with Jeffrey Mnome? No. In these messages, did you flirt with Jeffrey Mnome?

[10:03] Yes, some of them are flirty in nature. How did Gerhardt find out about Ariel's emotional affair? Well, he logged onto her WhatsApp and he found that there was this long conversation. And Ariel described an angry confrontation. When you say angry, upset, can you describe what he said to you? Yeah, called me a lying bitch, you're a whore. [10:25] "How could you do this?" sort of thing. [10:29] How did the defense handle Ariel on cross-examination? The defense asked very pointed questions every single time about the truthfulness of her answers. The defense questioned her on just how serious her injury really was after the incident. The defense said that the laceration on her head, though it looked bad on the pictures, it actually was not as severe and it just bleeds a lot. You did not have any skull fractures, correct? [10:58] That's correct. No skull fracture? Yeah, no facial fractures, correct? [11:03] That's correct. No fracture on my face. You're discharged the next day, correct? [11:07] Yes, sir. Interesting. [11:09] How long can we expect this trial to go on for? Well, we expect the trial to go on until mid-April. We potentially can expect to hear from Dr. Koenig himself. He is on the witness list for the defense. Yeah, well, since he's claiming self-defense, you know, jurors like to hear, you know, a firsthand account of that. We'll see what happens. Mehalani, thank you so much for bringing us this story all the way from Hawaii. We love hearing aloha at the top of our stories.

[11:39] It's very special. Thank you. Mahalo, Andrea. It's good to see you again. [11:46] Coming up, a man accused of murdering his daughter's boyfriend stands trial for a second time. And his defense team has a bold new strategy. [11:58] . [12:00] Earning your college degree can be a big win. [12:03] But it can also be a big commitment. [12:05] Southern New Hampshire University understands. [12:08] They work hard to make learning flexible, offering more than 200 programs you can take online. [12:15] And with no set class times, you can do it all on your schedule. [12:18] Life is busy. [12:20] But your goals don't have to wait. [12:22] Visit snhu.edu slash dateline to learn more. Insurance is not one size fits all. That's why drivers have trusted progressives' Name Your Price tool for years. [12:35] Just tell Progressive what you want to pay. [12:38] And they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget. [12:41] Visit Progressive.com to find a car insurance rate that works for you. [12:46] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. [12:52] With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. He wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums, he'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs.

[13:09] "'What's in your wallet?' [13:11] Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. [13:23] On November 30th, 2022, father and local businessman Kirby Carpenter was shot and killed outside his home in Tippa County, Mississippi. He was just 36 years old. For nearly a year, the murder went unsolved. Then, on the one-year anniversary of his death, investigators arrested Kirby's girlfriend, Caitlin Spence, along with her parents, Jeffrey and Karen. All three pleaded not guilty. [13:50] Then, in a sudden change of heart before their trial, Caitlin and her mother Karen took a plea deal, leaving Jeffrey to face a jury alone. Caitlin testified against her father for the prosecution. Your father told you that he was responsible for Kirby Carpenter's day, correct? [14:10] Yes. But after four and a half hours of deliberation, jurors could not reach a verdict. A judge declared a mistrial. [14:20] Again, Jeffrey Spence is on trial in a new courthouse in a different county. Dateline producer Rachel White, who attended the first trial, is back to tell us what else might be different this time around. Welcome back, Rachel. Thanks, Andrea. So first thing, why the move to a new county for this new trial? Well, [14:39] So the judge ordered the retrial to be moved. They were looking for jurors who didn't know details about the crime or the case. And the case has gotten a lot of local attention. So now we're in Calhoun County. What is the atmosphere like in the courtroom?

[14:54] Kirby's family members that are in the courtroom have been emotional. I think there are a lot of things that are hard to hear. And there are also, you know, photos from the crime scene that I think are really devastating for them to have to look at. So before we get to the opening statements, let's remind people of what happened here. Tell us about Kirby. Sure. So Kirby Carpenter was 36 years old. He was a Marine Corps vet, a father of two young children, and by all accounts, [15:24] He worked as a rare metals dealer and often handled cash, gold, silver, things like that. And Kirby's relationship with Caitlin Spence, his girlfriend, is really central to this case. Explain how they met and how her family became a part of his life. Yeah, sure. So Caitlin and Kirby began dating in 2020, and they had a daughter together in July of 2022. [15:54] them with the baby. They stayed for several months before returning to their home on November 29th, 2022, which was just one day before Kirby was murdered. Okay, so walk us through what investigators say happened the day Kirby was killed. [16:08] So investigators say that Kirby arrived back at his house after going to the grocery store, and he was shot twice, once in the neck and once in the chest. And then his body was dragged to the side of his carport in the driveway. And then two days later, on December 2nd, Caitlin Spence called 911 and reported finding Kirby's body. It took a year, but detectives, the investigation eventually leads them to Caitlin and her parents.

[16:38] Yeah, so that information came to police from a former employee, someone that Kirby knew, told police that while he was at Kirby's funeral, Caitlin allegedly said something to him along the lines of, Daddy killed Kirby, speaking about Jeff Spence. But, Rachel, you just said that Jeffrey Spence had already gone home to Virginia the day before Kirby's death. That's 500 miles away. Is that possible that he was the killer? Yeah. [17:07] So prosecutors say that Jeff Spence did drive home to Virginia, leaving Kirby and Caitlin's home. But then he drove back to Mississippi to kill Kirby. As for motive, the prosecution alleges that it was really about money. A few days after the shooting, when Jeffrey Spence was in Mississippi, Kirby's side of the family say they noticed something suspicious. [17:37] vehicle. We mentioned that Caitlin and her mom took plea deals. How did that come about, Rachel? So Caitlin pleaded guilty to being an accessory after the fact to capital murder. And her mother, Karen Spence, entered an Alford plea to charges of being an accessory after the fact to grand larceny. Now, an Alford plea is not her pleading guilty. She's just saying the prosecutor has enough evidence to convict her. And she's received a suspended sentence and is now on probation. [18:07] and her mom saying that they knew that the dad had done this? That's not exactly what they're saying. So the last time that Caitlin testified, she said that she did not know that her dad had killed Kirby until many months later when they had this conversation at a waterfall near her parents' property. I asked him if he had anything to do with Kirby's death. He turned aggressive and

[18:37] he did what he had to do, that the less I knew, the better. He said that I shouldn't let a gift horse in the mouth. [18:45] How did you take this conversation with respect to Kirby's death? [18:49] that he was confessing to me that he had killed Kirby. [18:52] So she is in trouble because she didn't [18:55] say anything? Like, why does she have to take a plea deal? [18:59] Like, was she in on the planning? Sounds like she wasn't, right? I mean, we don't know. One of the reasons that investigators are sure that Caitlin wasn't the one who pulled the trigger is because she was actually on security video at a local Walmart in the parking lot with her daughter at the time that they believed that Kirby was killed. So they know that she couldn't have been involved in the actual murder. [19:20] So Caitlin testified against her dad and that trial last fall still ended without a verdict. Rachel, the defense must have put up a good fight. They focused on, you know, common sense arguments. They told the jury that there was no physical evidence placing Jeff Spence at the scene. And they said that the timeline just didn't add up. They said that the prosecution didn't. [19:43] prove that he drove back to Mississippi like they said that he had. Okay, so mistrial was in September. Retrial is happening right now. Opening statements got underway on Tuesday. An assistant DA was up for the prosecution. What did he ask the jury to pay attention to? And did you notice anything different? So he laid out just what the jury can expect to hear from prosecutors. And he said that they would prove that Jeff Spence made that drive back to Mississippi to kill Kirby Carpenter.

[20:13] Jeff Spence's defense is, hey, I wasn't there. I left on the 29th. We'll prove otherwise. The defense also had their opening statements. Anything new from them? Well, the team itself is new. So Jeff Spence is now being represented by a new set of attorneys. And, you know, just like his defense at the first trial, they say there's no proof that Jeff was at the scene when Kirby was murdered. What felt new this time, though, is that they said that, [20:41] You know, things about Kirby's family that they might have been the ones who wanted to steal from him. And that definitely wasn't a part of the trial last time. They really also leaned into alternate suspects, including someone that they say owed Kirby money and had threatened him 24 hours before he was killed. And they also brought up another man who allegedly threatened to shoot Kirby. There are so many people who had motive, who had opportunity to kill Kirby Carter. So many people who wanted to see him more. Those people would never, ever investigate. [21:11] Rachel... [21:12] Can we assume Caitlin will testify again? She's such a key player in all of this. We don't know what day, but attorneys for both the prosecution and the defense mentioned her in their openings and said that we'd hear from her. OK, Rachel, thank you. We will keep an eye on this as the trial moves along. Thanks, Andrea. [21:35] Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. A jury decides the fate of the Utah nurse accused of murdering her best friend. [21:42] And 15 years after an Iowa realtor was shot dead at an open house, there's been an arrest. Plus, what can real estate agents do to stay safe? We talked to one realtor who's made it his mission to get agents the training and tools they need to protect themselves.

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[23:36] With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. He wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums, he'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. [23:53] "'What's in your wallet?' [23:55] Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. [24:08] Welcome back. Joining me for this week's Roundup is Dateline producer Marissa Meyer. Thanks for being here, Marissa. Thank you for having me, Andrea. Okay, so first up, we are headed to Provo, Utah for a story that you brought us last week, Marissa. This is the case of Megan Sundwall, the former nurse on trial for allegedly murdering her best friend, Casey Terry. Remind us of the details of that case. [24:31] Yes. So Casey Terry died in August of 2024, and her friends and family believed that she was terminally ill with cancer. But investigators soon learned she didn't actually have cancer and she died from an insulin overdose. The prosecutors are alleging that her best friend, Megan Sunwall, poisoned her because Megan believed she was the beneficiary of Casey's life insurance policy. [25:02] Closing arguments took place on Monday, and the prosecutor pushed back on the defense's theory that Megan was helping her friend fulfill a wish to die by suicide. It was not a best friend merely helping out her other best friend in the whole world.

[25:18] This was control. [25:20] And the person who was in control during that entire time frame [25:23] sits at that table. [25:25] Megan Tundwall. [25:26] What did the defense have to say? So Megan's defense attorney said again and again that there's simply no proof that Megan was the one who killed Casey. Our system requires proof, not just a good stringing together of suspicious looking things. [25:45] Suspicious looking words. [25:48] Reasonable doubt comes from lack of evidence. [25:50] Lack of proof. [25:52] And he argued that based on the glucometer readings, it very well could have been Casey who gave herself the fatal dose of insulin. And for anyone who doesn't know what a glucometer is, because I didn't before I started covering this case, it's a it's a portable medical device that essentially measures the amount of sugar in your blood. There is no evidence that anything was injected after Casey Terry. [26:20] was unconscious. [26:22] The way the zanakopal in this case [26:25] Casey Cherry could have done anything that was [26:28] The cause of her death herself. The case went to the jury on Monday afternoon. Have they reached a verdict? Yes, they found Megan Sudwell not guilty of murder, but they did find her guilty of assisting Casey Terry in the commission of suicide, which is a second degree felony. For our next story, we're going to Hudson Valley, which is in upstate New York.

[26:58] of his ex-girlfriend, Megan McDonald. So Marissa, this is a story the podcast covered a while ago, but just remind us about the details. [27:06] So back in March of 2003, Megan McDonald is 20 years old. Her friends say that they saw her at a party, but that she left to go look for her ex-boyfriend, Edward Hawley. Megan's body was found two days later on a dirt path she'd been bludgeoned to death. Marissa, the investigation didn't lead to an arrest until 20 years later when police arrested Edward Hawley. He was indicted for second-degree murder in 2024. [27:36] which ended in a hung jury. In January, his second trial got underway. Days and days go by, as we said, 14 days before the jury returned its verdict. What did the jurors decide? They acquitted Edward Hawley. And we should say Edward Hawley spoke out. He told the Mid-Hudson News, quote, it's only right for me to be a free man. I didn't do anything. I should have never been in jail. [28:03] What did Megan's family have to say about the verdict? So they posted a statement on the Justice for Megan McDonald Facebook page. They thanked the prosecutors and said, after decades of seeking the truth, we now have the answer to who took Megan from us. So it seems like it is, you know, some kind of closure for them. [28:27] Yeah. For our final story, we're off to West Des Moines, Iowa, where there's major news in the 2011 murder of 27-year-old realtor Ashley Oakland. Marissa, tell us about that case.

[28:57] The Iowa attorney general launched a cold case unit. And last year, new detectives got onto the case. That brings us to last week when police announced that 53-year-old Kristen Ramsey had been arrested and charged with Ashley's burner. And Ramsey has yet to enter a plea in this case. So this came out of the blue for a lot of people. Right. [29:19] What do we know about Kristen Ramsey? Yeah. So investigators really haven't shared much information at this time, but we know that at the time of her murder, Ashley was working as an agent with a firm called Iowa Realty. And at the time of the arrest last week, Kristen Ramsey was working for a subsidiary of Iowa Realty, and she had started there a few months after Ashley's death. [29:49] had been an arrest in the case, but were shocked that Ramsey was the person who had been arrested. Kristen Ramsey's next court date is scheduled for early April, and we will make sure to follow along as the case progresses. Marissa, thank you very much for that update and for all the updates. Thank you so much, Andrea. [30:11] For our final story, I wanted to talk to someone who's been on my mind a lot [30:19] Ashley Oakland, and his name is Carl Carter. I first met Carl more than a decade ago, reporting on a Dateline episode called The Client, which told the story of another murdered realtor, Carl's mom, Beverly. I'm texting her, I'm calling her, and I can't get any response. In 2014, Beverly was one of the top-selling realtors in Little Rock, Arkansas, when she was kidnapped and murdered by a man posing as a new client, Aaron Lewis. And she was

[30:46] Lewis and his wife, Crystal, were eventually convicted of kidnapping and capital murder charges in connection to Beverly's murder. Ever since his mother's death, Carl, who is a realtor himself, has been determined to do what he can to keep realtors safe. He set up the Beverly Carter Foundation, an organization dedicated to training realtors about the potential dangers they face and the tools they can use to protect themselves. And Carl is here now to share some of those tips. And we're so grateful to have you on, Carl. It's good to see you again. [31:16] It's always, always good to see you. What a tough time. I mean, for all of us that know of Ashley's story and I've [31:24] through the work that I've done with the nonprofit. [31:28] you know, had befriended people that were close to Ashley. And so, you know, for a case that I think many of us had just accepted that there was probably not going to be closure. Yeah. And then suddenly. Suddenly we have this arrest. It's a ripple effect for all of the realtors around the country when something like this happens. And you know that all too well. Realtors and these kinds [31:58] are. [31:59] you know, countless agents that I've met across the country. And it doesn't just fit one particular profile of a person that's going to be victimized. Everyone, I think, has risks that are just associated with this industry that these precious people are working alone. Yeah. I mean, secluded areas sometimes, not always the best cell service everywhere, can be at nighttime. And we should say, Carl, this isn't just an issue for women. It happens to men, too.

[32:28] in the business. It does. There have been, just in the past couple of years, several men realtors that were killed while [32:38] doing the work. Over the years, I've met many, many men that have been either assaulted or assaulted and robbed. What tips do you give realtors? Well, you know, just thinking about my precious mom, the number one thing that I always go to is [32:56] Try to find out who you're working with. What have you done to verify their identity? As best you can, ensure that they are actually interested and have the means to purchase a property. And Carl, I know you talk about meeting in a public place first. Absolutely. Always check your cell phone battery and signal before heading to an appointment. Technology has really stepped up with other things you can do to stay safe. [33:24] There are things like the Alexa devices or the ring doorbells. So those add a layer of surveillance, but they also add accountability. You know, I've had agents say, everything's been fine. We've shown multiple properties and suddenly starting to just get that weird, you know, feeling in your stomach. And so they'll say, hey, just want to be mindful of the fact that I read in the property description that this home has recording devices. [33:54] Just that kind of little ping of accountability to that person would hopefully deter some. They might think twice about what they're about to do if they're thinking, oh, is there a chance that there's a camera in here? But I also love just some of these wearable devices that you can be even more discreet. So it looks like jewelry or there's one that's just a little pen. And so I can put it behind my necktie and I can be pushing it, sending an alert to my support group.

[34:24] you know, the authorities to tell them, hey, I need help. We should say what you were talking about, you know, with behind your tie or a piece of jewelry, it's called Invisi-Wear. And also there's a system called Foreworn. What is it, Carl? So it simply, it is... [34:39] You take a phone number and it does a reverse lookup and it hits a ton of databases. Based on, you know, this data, are they who they say they are? So, you know, if people want to get these tips, what should they do? So, beverlycarterfoundation.org. But also there's a treasure trove of resources through the National Association of Realtors. They have an ongoing safety committee. Fantastic. [35:09] real estate agents. Thank you. It's my honor. That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. If you're looking for a show to binge this weekend, we've got the podcast for you. All six episodes of Josh's original podcast series, Trace of Suspicion, are out now. If you haven't listened yet, it's a story about the mysterious death of a Marine and his widow's eyebrow-raising behavior and the investigation that followed. There are some twists you won't [35:39] you [35:39] You can get that for free wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to listen without ads, subscribe to Dateline Premium. [35:47] Thanks for listening.

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