WANTED: Killer on the High Bridge

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies, it's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now, wherever you get your podcasts. [00:30] Hi Crime Junkies, I wanted to give you a quick reminder about the promotion that we're running. If you go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating with a written review and sign it with your Twitter username, we are doing a giveaway once a week where we pick our favorite review and give you some free Crime Junkie swag. We actually just did our first giveaway this past Saturday and a listener named Morgan won and she got a really cute [00:54] Crime Junkie zippered pouch, which I personally am obsessed with. She's been a crime junkie since day one. So it was really exciting. So thank you to Morgan. Thank you to everyone who's been giving us reviews. But I want everyone to know, even if you're not on Apple Podcasts, we appreciate you guys just as much. And we're going to be giving you chances to win as well through Instagram, through Facebook, and through our newsletter. Go to CrimeJunkiePodcast.com, see all the places you

[01:24] of different giveaways on all of those platforms so you'll have a chance to win as well. [01:39] Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of Crime Junkie. This week I have a really big case, but a really kind of hard case for Brit and I because it is local, it is still really fresh. We're going to be talking about Abigail Williams and Liberty German who were murdered in Delphi, [01:58] Last year, it's almost exactly a year from today. It'll actually be tomorrow. The 13th is the one year anniversary of when they went missing and then they were found murdered on 14th. So more than ever, I want to tell you guys a little bit about Crime Stoppers, who is the local organization here in Indianapolis. They're not actually taking tips on the Delphi case. [02:28] So never a more important time to tell you about such an important organization.

[02:58] No, no, not quite. [03:00] While everyone loves the idea of a badass crime-fighting dog, that's not what Crime Stoppers is. Crime Stoppers is a nonprofit that allows a place for people to give anonymous tips about crimes if they are in fear for their life or, for whatever reason, don't want the police to know who they are when they give the tip, but they have valuable information. You can do this through phone numbers, online tips. They even have an app called P3 that you can download and submit your tip along with photos and videos. Yeah. [03:29] Crime Stoppers is a nonprofit and receives no government funding. So look into yours, see how you can get involved, see how you can help. And if you want more information on Crime Stoppers of Central Indiana, go to crimetips.org. [03:43] All right, Britt, are you ready to jump into this one? This is such a big case. And again, so close to our home, close to our hearts. [03:54] So reason right and I'm a couple of other podcasts have covered this and I [04:00] There isn't a lot of information, so what I really want to do is I'm going to try as best I can to stay away from rumors and speculation. [04:08] ton of that on the internet and you can find it there. This is going to be a one part episode. I really just want to give you the facts and more than anything I really just want people to still [04:16] be talking about these girls because I still think it's really important that we get justice for them. And I think it's important because there is still someone out there who murdered these girls that everyone needs to be aware of and keep an eye out for.

[04:29] It really is so scary. Right. [04:31] Delphi, Indiana is actually just an hour and 23 minutes from where I'm recording this episode right now. And last year in February of 2017, it was unusually warm in Indiana, like 50 degrees from what I remember. And from what I'm finding online, and Libby's grandfather remembers it being even warmer, like closer to 60s, because he remembers trying to convince Libby to take a jacket with her when she wanted to go outside. [05:00] Our story takes place over a Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. And the reason I talk about the weather is because normally these girls would have been in school. And I often wonder how different everything would have been if they would have been in school that day. But their school had a built-in snow day. And for those of you who live in beautiful, warm places and have no idea what I'm talking about, built-in snow days, though, in Indiana, we just prepare for god-awful weather. It's going to happen. It is. It's going to happen. [05:30] So we build in these days where if we have snow days, we make up our school on these built-in snow days. And if we have a beautiful, warmish winter, then we get these days off. So these girls actually had Monday the 13th off of school. They weren't skipping school. And it was beautiful and warm. And so that Sunday night on the 12th, Abby decided to stay the night at Libby's house. These girls were...

[05:59] best friends. They wanted to [06:02] have a sleepover they watched movies they ate pizza they hung out with kelsey which is libby's older sister and just had like a girls night and a movies night both families said the girls were extremely close and they did so much together both in school and out they were in band together and even played the exact same interim instrument which is the alto sax so i feel like brett this was like kind of us [06:24] as young kids, like BFFs, we did everything together. [06:28] I played alto sax. Like, this is really similar. I was going to say minus the instruments, because you played all the instruments, and I got through fifth grade by pretending to blow into my flute for an entire year. But it was still like, hey, I have a day off of school. [06:42] we need to do something because we never, like, we never get this opportunity on a Monday as 13-year-olds. Like, it was definitely something that I remember doing with you growing up. [06:53] So that next morning, that Monday, when they had off of school, Libby asked her older sister, Kelsey, if she would drop her and Abby off at the Monon High Bridge. And this area is kind of like desolate, but it's a normal hiking trail. So one of the things I see online all the time is... [07:12] like they were hiking in the middle of nowhere and it's this like abandoned railroad track and why would these girls go there? [07:19] It's everyone goes there. It's like a historical site, but it is a little bit different than a normal hiking trail that we have maybe here in Indianapolis or some other areas. There's not this designated area to park or where everyone filters in one way. You basically just roll up to like a trailhead and you can enter in a bunch of different places. But it is made specifically for walking and hiking.

[07:42] this [07:43] Monon High Bridge is a very [07:46] I want to say touristy destination. It's popular. Not that many people tour Delphi, but... [07:50] Right, exactly. [07:52] So the girls were dropped off at about one o'clock and the plan was to have another family member pick them up in a couple of hours. The family member that was coming, I read somewhere that it was Libby's dad. The plan was when he got close, he was just going to call them and they were going to come where they were dropped off and be picked up. [08:10] So the next thing we know for sure that happens is at 207, Libby posts a Snapchat photo of Abby walking across this bridge. [08:21] From what I can see in the picture, she's about halfway through the bridge. The bridge is totally empty. [08:29] it doesn't appear that there's anyone else walking, it's not a busy day, and [08:34] There's really no caption with this photo. It's just her walking. It's like very dramatic like you are when you're 13 and 14. I love it. [08:42] At 3:11, [08:43] Her dad [08:45] calls Libby to say that he's getting really close, but she doesn't answer her phone. [08:50] And at 3.13, he calls her again because he's actually at the pickup location at this time. But again, she doesn't answer her phone. So by 3.30, he's gotten out of his car and he started to hike. [09:03] And maybe hiking is the wrong word for people who aren't familiar with Indiana. Walking through our woods. It's all trails. [09:09] Yeah, all trails through the woods. It's not hilly. It's very flat here. So he starts walking the path that the girls would have walked. And by 4 o'clock, when he's not finding them, he's starting to get really concerned. So he calls...

[09:23] Libby's grandma Becky and Libby actually lives with her grandma and grandpa at the time so he calls to alert them something's wrong I can't find them anywhere I need you guys to come out and help me look and they actually call Abby's mother as well her name's Anna and get her out there to help them look and so the family starts hiking the trail they go across the bridge all the places that [09:50] but they don't find them. So at about 530 is when they start raising the alarms and calling the police. And there is a full on community search almost right away. And this is something that I'm so proud of, because usually in cases like this, you can point to all the things police did wrong. But really, I think they did everything right. In this case, they were out there immediately. They got so many people involved. They took this so seriously. And they just did a really [10:20] I live about two hours... [10:22] two and a half hours north of Delphi. And I mean, we were getting amber alerts, we were getting notifications, like it was huge up here by the six o'clock news. And we're, you know, two or three hours away from Delphi. [10:37] where the girls went missing. So they really did a great job at getting the word out immediately. [10:44] They did. So they're looking for the girls. And best I can put together from the information that's out there, at about the time that they call the police, that 530 mark, Libby's phone goes dead. And I can't find out any information on Abby's phone if she had one. But they're no longer able to even...

[11:04] try and get in contact with the girls phones. At one point in the night around midnight-ish, they have to call off the search because it's gotten just too dark. [11:14] for people to even know what's going on. They're not making great progress in the dark, and they decide that the best thing to do is just to call off the search until the next morning. But at this point, I mean, again, news... [11:25] Outlets are already there and police are saying that they're not suspecting foul play. And even the families, you know, when they go back and talk about it, they believed at the time... [11:34] The worst thing that probably happened is one of the girls had gotten hurt and they were so close that the other didn't want to leave them. So they were just waiting for someone to come help. [11:43] They resumed the search in the morning, which now we're about Tuesday, February 14th, Valentine's Day. And the search resumes with canine units, dive teams, and now the FBI is participating. So everyone is out here in full force. [12:00] Around noon, though, that day, Kelsey said, her sister, she's out there searching with everyone else, and she recalls just hearing somebody yell that they had found them and it wasn't good. The girls were found on the edge of the water in Deer Creek, which runs parallel to the bridge that Abby was last photographed on, but they're about a half a mile from what I could get on Google Maps, like, from each other. So it's not like the creek is directly underneath the bridge. [12:30] walkaways but they do run in parallel from one another. This area where they were found was super close to this park and this public area but we later learned that it's actually part of a 40 acre lot that's private property belonging to a seven-year-old man named Ron Logan. Did they not get that far that night or was it something that they had searched the night before? Did they

[12:55] Do we know? There's a lot of back and forth about whether that area was searched or not the night before. And a lot of this, again, is on those blogs where nothing I feel like can be known for certain. Some searchers say that they did and they didn't see anything. But something to remember is that they stopped searching around midnight. [13:14] They called... [13:15] in the police at 5:30. It gets dark here in February. [13:20] by six. I mean, I think six is even pushing it. Right. So if they were searching, they were searching in the dark. But this kind of feeds into the next part. They did autopsies on the girls the next day, February 15th, and confirmed that [13:35] It was Abby and Libby that were found. I don't think anyone's really expecting anything different, but they had to confirm the identities. But they wouldn't release anything about the manner or cause of death or... [13:47] whether or not they had been sexually assaulted. There have been rumors, again, online about everything. So nothing at this point means anything to me. People have literally given every variation of what could have happened. They've said both girls were sexually assaulted. Only one girl was sexually assaulted. Neither were sexually assaulted. Neither were, but they were mutilated. Literally, everything has been said, and it often gets said with such conviction. I don't know how these people think they're so right. It's crazy. [14:17] happened to them. I think it's unlikely they would have been able to have been attacked where they were found. Because from the time the Snapchat photo was taken until when people were looking was only a couple of hours. So I have no idea how someone would have

[14:36] moved the bodies of these two girls by themselves. They couldn't have done anything to them right there. So my best guess, and it's just a guess, is that they were killed where they were found, right? [14:50] And I don't know when that was, though, if they were killed right away or if they were alive and right because there's and there's later because we don't have a cause or manner of death. We don't have an approximate timestamp of death either. [15:04] Right. Right. So they could have searched it. They could have not searched it. They could have searched it and they could have been there. Big question mark. There's also been a lot of rumors around the cause of death itself. And again, Reddit and WebSleuth is a mess of theories and people are so sure that they're right. It's just insane to me. There are people saying that the crime scene was bloody and a mess and they believe their throats had been cut. And then the post right after it would say, nope, there was no blood at the scene. [15:34] were broken. [15:36] And people say that they didn't die at the same time. It's all alone. And there's no official report, so there's nothing to check it against. [15:43] . [15:44] Right. So it's I don't know if people are going off of what they're hearing in town, but we like there is nothing to go off of. People do not know what they're talking about until we get something from the cops. Like, that's the only thing that I will trust. The rumor that I did hear most consistently, and there may be some weight behind, was that the girls were wearing scarves at their memorial service and. [16:06] This is why people believe that something would have happened to their necks. And I think that's why they keep guessing at what could have happened. But...

[16:13] Back to what we do know. [16:15] So the same day they do the autopsies and confirm the identities, they release a photograph of a man who's likely hiking in a car. [16:23] in the same area that same day. And you can see this photo if you haven't seen it already. I mean, it's been on every Facebook page, on every news outlet, but we've got it on our website as well, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. Initially, the police don't call him a suspect. They just say they want to talk with him because he may have seen something. By the 16th, the girl's story had made national news. They were everywhere, CNN, NBC. [16:53] 5. [16:54] They officially call this guy the main suspect and say that he was there the exact same time as the girls. And I get why before they were just saying they want to talk to him, you know, hoping maybe that he would come forward to try and rule himself out. But he's not coming forward. No one is giving their name. Because even if it was a relative, I can see why someone would be hesitant if it's the main suspect. Whereas you're like, oh, you were hiking that day, dad, and you look just like this guy. You should go forward. [17:24] sleuth and [17:25] Everyone was going mad with speculation about this picture. Did it come from a camera on the trail? Was it in a parking lot? Did someone on the trail take it? I literally probably could have just gone over there and seen if there was a camera or not. But this just in, I'm not the police and I'm not trying to get in anyone's way.

[17:44] Unfortunately, though, even with this renewed urgency, the cops saying, okay, people, we're [17:49] Not playing around. This is our man. Still no one significant comes forward. So on Wednesday, February 22nd, the Delphi Police Department, the Carroll County Sheriff, [18:01] and the Indiana State Police, along with the FBI, hold a giant joint... [18:06] mother of all press conferences. Do you remember this day? [18:10] I remember it like it was yesterday. It's so hard for me to even believe this was a year ago. So, we were both on the road this day. [18:18] And... [18:18] Yeah, they dropped the bomb like that morning and you and I both had to travel. And we were freaking out. And so I remember Justin, for me, was driving. You were driving yourself. So we'll talk about that later. [18:29] listening to the press conference on my phone, driving through a rural area of Indiana, for me at least, listening to this press conference about a new... [18:45] possible lead or clue in this case. And just like being completely consumed by this massive press conference that involved multiple law enforcement agencies and... [19:00] I was glued to my phone. [19:04] And I was just done. Like, I... [19:06] I was dying to know what they had. I was sure that what they were going to tell us was they had some big break in the case. [19:13] information on how the bodies were found, anything that could connect this case to any other case that was already out there, or a suspect.

[19:23] But what they gave us, I was not expecting. [19:27] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [19:46] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now, wherever you get your podcasts. [19:57] So police reveal that the picture we have of the suspect was actually taken from Libby's own phone. And not... [20:07] Only that. They have audio of this man... [20:12] and they release a small clip to the public hoping that someone will recognize his voice [20:17] We do have some new information for you today. It's in the form of an audio file from the cell phone. [20:30] that Liberty in Germany had with her at the time. We're not going to play everything that we have. Liberty had the presence of mind [20:40] to turn on our video camera. [20:43] Again, we're not going to be able to share everything with you, but we are going to share this audio clip with you momentarily with the hope that somebody will recognize this voice. I want to be very clear that what you're about to hear is just four short words. Excuse me, three words. Down the hill. You're going to hear this play four times.

[21:10] curb, but there's enough there that somebody could recognize this person's voice. And as Superintendent Carter said, not to rationalize the way. If you hear this today and you think, my God, that sounds like fill in the blank, call us. Make an anonymous tip. Tell us who [21:40] little bit of time and they'll be cleared and they can go on and they'll never know that you called. [21:45] But you may tell us who the right person was. And you can be the person that helps us to solve this horrible crime. [21:56] Am I going to play the clip, please? Let's play it one more time. [22:10] So that audio clip later today will be available on the Indiana State Police website. You can simply go to our website and add the extension slash Delphi dot HTM. There will be information on that website that talks about the reward that is being collected now. Sergeant Slogan will talk more about that, the amount of money that's been raised towards solving this case.

[22:40] And really, money shouldn't be what drives somebody to help solve this. Just a sense of community and wanting to help and to get this person off the street. [22:51] The image that you see there, the suspect, that came from Liberty's phone. I think many of you had speculated that before. We weren't prepared to discuss it at the time. We have more video. We're not releasing it. It's germane to our investigation. [23:10] And it's important that we spread that person's voice far and wide to somebody that will recognize who that is and will call us and tell us. I remember listening to this clip over and over again and calling you and saying, what did I just hear? What is this? What do we do with this? [23:32] Yeah. I mean, so he just says down the hill and I know there's more audio. I know they just clip this little part. I don't know why that they chose this part. I mean, they have their reasons, but of all of it and why just this, these three little words, but I have listened to this over and over and over. [23:49] And I don't feel like I can draw anything from it. I mean, I don't think I know this guy. [23:53] Do you think it's enough? [23:55] to give people hoping that they'll connect it to someone that they personally know. [23:59] Uh... [24:00] I don't. [24:02] It's three words. We're Midwesterners. We have the most amiable accent in the world. People love Midwestern accents because there isn't an accent. There's nothing to identify him from all.

[24:19] my dad or your dad when it comes to saying these three words, really. [24:25] Exactly. I mean, that's what I'm saying. He's like no one, but he's everyone I've ever met. [24:30] So to this day, that's the most the public has gotten from this video taken by Libby. And police say that it was taken, the video, during, quote, criminal activity. They won't say if it was captured properly. [24:46] during [24:47] the crime or part of the crime, the entire crime, but a lot of people speculate it does because if you watch a lot of these [24:55] press conferences that police have done. Police get really emotional when they talk about this video. And it's so sad to see. You can tell that this case has just rocked, like, even the most seasoned investigators. Even the FBI investigators seem to be very emotionally invested and affected by [25:12] by [25:14] some of the factors of this case. [25:16] So do we know [25:19] If she took the video on purpose or if it was just something that she was taking a video of and then this happened? Or is that part of the mystery, too? [25:31] So we didn't know for a long time. But now that it's a year later and the more police talk about it, they've openly said that they speculate it was a conscious choice by her because she knew that what was happening wasn't normal.

[25:49] Her grandma actually said that Libby and Abby... [25:53] When I say her grandma, I mean Libby's grandma, said that Libby and Abby were both into true crime and wanted to go into law enforcement. And Libby specifically wanted to do some kind of forensics. And she said they watched true crime shows. So she really believed that Libby felt uneasy and started recording on purpose because she knew that something was wrong. Yeah. [26:16] It does. They were little crime junkies. They were crime junkies. Like... [26:20] They were trying to point us to their killer. [26:22] That's like, I have full body of people saying that. [26:27] I know. [26:28] That's the thing is even the police, like when they did their big press conference, they just said, you know, Libby had the presence of mind to know that she needed to record this. Okay, so we don't know. [26:40] We assume that she took this on purpose, but do we know where the photo was taken? Was it by the bridge, by the creek where they were found... [26:49] Thank you. [26:51] We know kind of. Again, so I'm openly telling you I'm diving into the speculation area. Police have never put a red dot on a map and said this is where they took the photo. I found this YouTube video online. [27:06] where this guy went out and he filmed the entire bridge. [27:10] And then he overlaid the picture of the suspect on different parts until he found a damn near perfect match. And it's almost at the end of the bridge. So I'm gonna post this video on our website for you guys to see as well. If this guy's legit, it would appear that the girls started walking on the bridge, took the picture of Abby about halfway through, and then shortly after that,

[27:39] The guy must have gotten on the bridge behind them. And something that he did... [27:44] or what he did or just the way he was or he said something made the girls nervous enough to start recording. And if this guy's shot is right, [27:53] Her video or the photograph was taken towards the end of the bridge, and then he could have confronted them shortly after that video was taken when they were off of the bridge. [28:04] And it could have been at that point that he tells them something about down the hill. [28:10] Do we know why she would take a photo or a video in this point? Like, why wouldn't you call 911? Or even... [28:18] You're... [28:19] your sister, your friend, a family member, just so they could be on the other line hearing [28:25] whatever might go down go down and alert authorities from there [28:30] Bye. [28:32] No idea. And I don't know if it's because she was already on Snapchat and that was just maybe this guy approached them in such a fast way that that's really the only thing she had time to do. [28:42] If he was threatening them, I also remember being 13 and 14. And while I was a baby crime junkie, I also didn't think anything bad in the world could actually happen to me. So I could totally see like, oh, my gosh, there's this creepy guy. And I got a video of him. [28:58] And like, oh, I was so close to danger. I can't wait to show my friends tomorrow. But not really. That I... Yeah, but in the back of your mind, you never think really something like that's going to happen to you. No, there's definitely a sense of invincibility in...

[29:11] Your teenage years is a total, to be honest, but especially... [29:15] when you're 12, 13, 14 and just getting that freedom to yourself. [29:21] Yeah, so I absolutely don't think, like, they did the best they could. And I'm, like, thank God she just got what she did when she was able to. And we don't know what all she got because we've only seen what the police have released. [29:32] you [29:33] Exactly. [29:35] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [29:54] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to The Deck now, wherever you get your podcasts. [30:05] Okay. So this guy, they have on video, they have his picture, they have his voice, but no one has been able to find him. As of January 2018, police have gotten 26,000 tips in, but they just haven't gotten the right one in yet. So finally, they take this video and they're going to find him. [30:28] And some eyewitness testimony they have to the FBI. And they put a sketch together of what this guy could possibly look like. Again, we've got this on the website. If you haven't seen it already, if you haven't seen it, I don't know what rock you're living under. But come out. Enjoy the fresh air. There's true crime up here.

[30:48] But police have been saying over and over... [30:51] Don't get too caught up in the sketch. Focus on the body. They did the same thing with the voice, too. And for a minute, I remember you and I going back and forth. We thought that maybe we were talking about two people because they would say, if you know someone with that voice, but it doesn't match the sketch or vice versa. [31:09] Still call. And they were kind of weird about it. [31:13] It's definitely the same guy. But what I think they meant is like, don't get too much in your head and don't talk yourself out of it. Because I can see someone being like, oh, God, I know that voice. But I like he looks too short. He look, you know what I mean? Like talking yourself out of something you feel in your bones. And as a crime junkie, you've watched all the shows. You've listened to all the podcasts. You know, the eyewitness testimony is not the most secure thing in the world. So. [31:37] Honestly, [31:38] auditory memory is generally better than visual memory, so I can totally see why they made that sort of disclaimer on the audio versus photo of the potential suspect. [31:53] Yeah. And even I mean, as recently as the 15th, when they were on Megyn Kelly, the police officer was saying, like, don't. [32:01] focus on the face. Like we put this together, like he's facing down in the picture. We have a picture of his body type. He's like, if it were my family member, I could recognize that. [32:10] their slouch or their walk or their body type, even if the sketch is a little bit off. So really focus on the body type. And then I think the sketch is meant more for people who...

[32:20] aren't close to the suspect and maybe are walking down the street. Uh, [32:24] Well, the next thing that happens is in August, they tell us they have DNA. [32:30] But the direct quote I found on this says... [32:34] In quotes, at every crime scene, you're going to have DNA. We are still working on identifying all of the DNA that we have there. And this was from Sergeant Holman. And this is from Sergeant Holman. [32:46] After that, people keep talking about DNA, but I'm not sure if they really had the killer's DNA. [32:53] Because that quote is like at every crime scene, you're going to have DNA. We're still working on identifying all of the DNA that is there. That does not tell me that you have the killer's DNA. So this is a pretty popular trail in the area. Yeah. [33:05] Right? [33:07] I went to a... it's technically a state park... [33:11] nearby where we grew up pretty frequently when I was growing up, and people camped there, people hiked there, people rode horses there, and... [33:22] I hurt myself on those trails. I hurt my horse occasionally on those trails, not badly of course. Um, [33:30] But... [33:31] That all constitutes as DNA, including dogs, dogs who chase rabbits, dogs who chase rats and squirrel. Like, there's a lot of things that can technically constitute as DNA without actually being tied to a case. [33:47] Well, even aside from outside forces, I mean, when I read that, what I hear is, okay, we have Abby's DNA, we have Libby's DNA, we have this...

[33:57] searcher who found them, their DNA, police, like you have stuff there. You don't know what's relevant now. [34:03] Everything I keep reading after keeps referring back to DNA. So it is completely reasonable to think that maybe I'm missing a quote somewhere. But this is the only one directly from an officer that I could find. [34:16] But people do keep coming back to the DNA. It kind of reminds me of when you hear about a murder or a last known location of like a hotel room. [34:24] and there's a lot of stuff that goes into that hotel room, or a murder in a public place, like a subway or a sidewalk. There's just a lot to process, and... [34:36] Especially because this is an [34:37] outside [34:39] rural location, there's a lot that goes into that and you don't know exactly what the crime scene radius is. [34:46] So, assuming they've processed a lot of this DNA, [34:50] Do we know if there's any suspects tied to it? [34:54] Amen. [34:56] They say that there's been a lot of suspects, like less than six months into this investigation. Police had already done something crazy, like 300 interviews. They started with interviewing Ron, the guy who owned the property that the girls were found on. He was actually on probation for some DUIs, and he was initially investigated. [35:18] because it was his land, he had to be investigated. But they ruled him out pretty quickly. However, they did arrest him because the day of the girl's disappearance, he was at the city dump, which driving was against his probation at the time. And he was only a month from being off of his probation, but he blew it. And he had to have been conflicted because I can see wanting to lie about, uh,

[35:45] something you were doing that you should have been doing on probation. But my God, if you had an alibi, you need to use that alibi. Telling the truth to break probation versus being a murder suspect is worth it. [35:57] Oh, for sure. Well... [35:59] Kind of. He's kind of a dick about it later. [36:03] After he gets arrested, he is in front of the judge, and the judge asks if he has anything to say on his own behalf. [36:14] Maybe in the future, and quotes, maybe in the future, no one else will be murdered in my backyard. [36:20] Uh... [36:22] Sorry if it was an inconvenience to you, you dick. Ha ha ha. [36:27] *laughs* [36:28] like he was just like a turd i mean so a lot of people think it's super fishy like oh what was he doing at this dump like he was wearing in some of the interviews he was wearing this like blue coat and a camel hat that people were like oh it looks just like the guy in the picture but police have totally ruled him out he's also 77 and while police won't give any kind of age range for [36:58] you [36:58] some facial hair too, but it is white. And the guy in the picture has no white facial hair from anything that I can see. [37:04] While they investigated Ron, they never called him a person of interest. The only person to date that they've publicly called a person of interest is the person of interest.

[37:15] has been Daniel Nations. [37:18] Thank you. [37:18] For everyone listening, keep in mind that Britt and I are over here in Indiana. We're fully abreast of what's going on with Delphi and their case, but not a clue as to other random crimes happening in other states like, say, Colorado. Well, on September 25th, the Internet blows up. [37:38] up. And I wake up to all these Google alerts freaking out. A man named Daniel Nations had been arrested in Colorado. [37:47] For suspicion of wielding a hatchet [37:52] on some trails and threatening people. [37:55] And also in connection to the possible murder of a biker on a trail who had been shot. Yeah. [38:02] already were like acts on a trail okay pretty fishy especially since we don't know how the girls were murdered we just know they were murdered on a trail in the woods text for him me and you specifically to make sure we knew about this yeah [38:19] Yeah, like we didn't know about this. [38:22] He is our own Google alert, though. It was good to know. Good job. [38:27] you [38:28] After they released this [38:30] axe thing they release his picture and it was like if god sculpted him out of clay to match the sketch that police had released back in july this [38:44] the side by side i mean i posted it on my instagram way back in the day i will repost it the side by side is out of this world i remember texting you and being like it's okay case is over this is it we've got answers

[38:59] Yes, like, thank God we're going to get some closure. Her family's going to get some closure. And I'm not sure if you mention this, though. These girls are going to get justice. Though he was arrested in Colorado, he has ties to Indiana during the time the girls were here and murdered. [39:16] Right. So police confirm that they're going to go talk to him like, yeah, this is pretty fishy. And when they go out there, that's when it starts rolling in, like all of the stuff that we find out that not only is he this dude just in Colorado, but... [39:34] with some like fishy similarities, but he's a Hoosier, Indiana dude in Colorado doing all these fishy ax things. So his backstory is in 2015, he has to register as a sex offender after deputies say that he hid in the stall of a woman's restroom at a Rickers gas station on US 31 and was caught peeping and pleasuring himself. [39:59] Side note, been to that Rickers. Totally creepy. I was like, pass it all the time when I go to Indianapolis. [40:05] No. [40:06] Yeah. December 15th of 2015 through January 27th of 2016, he serves time for domestic assault. And in 2016, he has like a number of other arrests for driving on a suspended license, charged with possession of marijuana. Kind of small misdemeanor situations. [40:28] Yeah, his landlord files an eviction petition like nothing crazy. In January of 2017, he registers as a homeless sex offender.

[40:38] After he registers as a sex offender, he has to check in every single week because he doesn't have a normal address where they know he's going to be at and they can go in and check on him. He has to do an in-person check in every week. And this includes February 14th of 2017, the day that the girl's bodies were found. [40:59] you [40:59] And he faithfully checks in every single week. His last check-in was in April. [41:06] And then he stopped checking in. [41:09] July 17th [41:11] is when the police released that composite sketch. And his parole officer [41:17] took notice because again it's like a freaking picture of him. [41:23] And on July 18th, an investigation begins into Daniel Nation's whereabouts after he failed to register his new address as part of his program. [41:33] So police are looking for him. He's definitely on their radar. At this point, no one knows he's on their radar, but they're doing their due diligence trying to find him. And then they get alerted September 25th that he's arrested in Woodland Park, Colorado. And they're down there on the 29th. [41:50] investigating, doing whatever it is they do, [41:54] And when they come back... [41:56] They announced to everyone [41:59] that they can't rule him in or out. But they do officially make him... [42:03] a person of interest, which is the first person of interest in this case. [42:08] you

[42:10] Yeah, but... [42:11] Well, I don't understand how you don't rule someone out, right? It's very suspicious, but outside of the main suspect, which is currently a picture of a man walking from like 50 feet looking down, and a... [42:24] audio clip of three people. [42:26] Or of three words... [42:28] which is the main suspect. [42:30] . [42:30] This is the first time we've had a name and a face to put as the person of interest in this case. [42:39] So here's a question I have for you then. [42:43] And this leads back to my wondering if they have the killer's DNA or not. If they had the killer's DNA, do you think... [42:52] they could officially rule him out as a suspect if his DNA didn't match? Or if they have the killer's DNA and his DNA doesn't match, are they keeping it open to the possibility that there's more than one perpetrator? Because a lot of people think, [43:06] That in order to subdue two girls, you have to have more than one person. [43:14] But... [43:16] I've also watched Law & SVU enough to know that there are privacy laws that prevent [43:21] DNA from being collected from suspects unless they are XYZ. [43:27] I don't feel like they would have any problem. Especially because he's already broken parole. He's in another state. He's been convicted of another crime, which includes threatening with a deadly weapon. I think the charges associated with the biker who was murdered were eventually dropped. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[43:46] you [43:48] But... [43:49] It also seems weird to not officially say, like, [43:53] He's someone we're looking at. [43:54] He's someone we're not looking at. [43:57] But also... [43:59] Well, he's still considered under suspicion for the biker's death as well. And last I heard, he had been paroled for his crimes of wielding a hatchet. I believe in the late December or early January of this year, he was paroled. [44:15] Right. So, [44:16] The latest development. Now, you guys are hearing this in February. We're recording it in late January. On January 15th. [44:26] The... [44:27] Sheriff's Office in a Tennessee town released this notice that the FBI had expanded their search to [44:34] to southeast Tennessee. [44:37] And while this news is breaking, the family is, [44:42] And... [44:43] One of the law enforcement officers from the case were actually being interviewed on Megyn Kelly. And the officer said, no, it's it's a national search. I'm tracking what's going on in Tennessee, but it is national. [44:57] like right after the deputy's office in Tennessee posted that they took it down and then just posted like a general flyer of this guy's information and his crimes. But I remember texting you right away and being like, [45:08] What do you mean you're expanding it to Southeast Tennessee? Like, I had the same thought that that law enforcement officer did. Like, I thought we were looking everywhere. And again, I could be wrong, but I feel like the agency that posted it in Tennessee had to maybe even issue a retraction saying we're looking for it specifically, but also everywhere else is still looking, too.

[45:29] Thank you. [45:30] Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So it makes me wonder if like something happened in Southeast Tennessee, like we're only getting a small piece of the story, which we're getting a small piece of this entire story. Like there's no reason for them to tell the public everything right. Like they're doing what's best for the investigation. But it's just one of those things that like. [45:47] Perked my interest. Piqued my interest. Whatever one's right. [45:59] didn't cause Southeastern Tennessee to post something like that. [46:04] Thank you. [46:05] Right. Well, so again, when they got this information, they were on Megyn Kelly. And I have to say, just like a side note to all of this, the family's composure through this whole thing has been astounding. I mean, when you and I were flipping out about Daniel Nations, I mean, they were just saying, yeah, I think it kind of looks like him. I can see it in the mouth. I can see it in the nose to figure out if it's him or not. [46:28] Yeah, we trust law enforcement. [46:30] And they said, you know, we've we can't ride the roller coaster like we can't get our hopes up every time we trust that the police are going to get this information. They're going to vet it out. And when it's really serious, they're going to let us know. And specifically, one thing that I found really interesting. [46:47] that one of the law enforcement agents' officers said, when asked on TV if there were any other MOs similar in the area... [46:55] The officer basically said that they think a person who would commit

[47:00] such an evil crime like this has likely committed the crime before and they will likely commit that crime again. [47:09] So, again, am I reading it wrong? Are they saying this guy's a serial killer? It sounds like it's a serial killer. [47:16] Um... [47:17] I know that you and I have talked about, I believe it's a pair of cousins in Iowa that sounds kind of similar that is still unsolved. [47:28] . [47:30] Yeah, so Lyric and Elizabeth, they were 8 and 10, and... [47:35] were abducted in 2012. And they were riding bikes, and their bodies actually weren't found for five months later. But so many people have connected this case because the two girls were abducted. [47:48] about the same age-ish. The girls in Delphi were a lot older, but... [47:53] They were found in a wooded area near water as well. [47:58] just like kind of creep factor, they also went missing on the 13th day of the month, but it was in July. So on the 13th day of the month, it's not super consistent with that, but the 13th of February was the day before a holiday. [48:12] I'm all about finding [48:14] serial killers who have really specific tendencies and times that they act or ways that they act. Is there anything connected to day before holidays or holiday killings that we know of with the same sort of victim typing maybe? [48:30] Thank you.

[48:31] Okay, this is when... [48:34] You can turn off the podcast if you want, because I'm telling you from here on out, nothing I'm about to say. I don't believe that this guy is responsible. [48:41] for the next cases I'm about to talk about. It's just a weird coincidence that we have cases in the Midwest that happen before a holiday. [48:51] There is a girl named Nevaeh Buchanan who is five years old in 2009, and she was abducted outside of her apartment complex and then left buried alive by... [49:03] on the bank of a river with concrete poured over her. [49:07] The only connection there, again, not connected to this case at all. It's just that she was found near water. And she went missing right before Memorial Day. So it was right before a holiday. And she was a young girl. And there's another case... [49:20] that I've been deeply invested in lately and going to be doing a podcast on in a few months is another little girl named April, who was abducted and murdered in 1988. Yeah, that was around Good Friday, right? [49:34] Again. [49:36] Yeah. So again, not again, not related to this case. It's not the same guy, but it's weird that these things are happening so quickly. [49:46] close geographically, but... [49:50] right before holidays, super strange. [49:53] So I don't know what's going on in the holidays in Indiana and in the Midwest in general, but... [49:57] Don't go outside. To go back to the two cousins, police have released a couple of things. They've actually talked to the police there. Lyric and Elizabeth, their families actually reached out as soon as

[50:08] Abby and Libby were murdered because... [50:12] They wanted police to know that this was so similar. They actually never released the cause of death in Lyric and Elizabeth's case as well. Mm-hmm. [50:19] which was very similar. [50:21] But police have ruled it out. They've asked everyone to move on. So while they think he's done it before, I don't know that they're able to tie specific cases to him yet. And if they are, they're not telling us. [50:33] And again, I think they're doing what's best for the investigation. So there is a $240,000 reward leading to the apprehension of the suspect or their prime person of interest. So again, if anyone knows anything, I really recommend going to our site. You can see all of the pictures. Someone has to know this guy. He isn't. [50:55] A ghost. [50:56] take a look there's 240 000 in it for you even if you don't want to just be a good person [51:26] You can get all the information on our website. For those of you who still don't know, that's CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. And remember to come back next week for a new true crime story.

[51:47] Crime Junkie is written and hosted by me. All of our sound production and editing comes from Britt Prewatt. [51:56] theme comes from Justin Daniel. Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? [52:03] *Mario's Screams* [52:08] Okay, crime junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? [52:26] It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now, and I've been listening for years. [52:30] I think you'll love it too. [52:31] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.