WANTED: Robert Fisher

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now, wherever you get your podcasts. [00:56] Hi everyone and welcome back to Crime Junkie. [01:00] as always, joined by Britt. Hi, guys. And for those of you who don't know, I actually spent a part of my life in Arizona, and my heart will always be in Arizona. I'm dying to go back. But there is a really famous case out there that everyone in Arizona has an opinion about, even 17 years later. It's pretty controversial. It was a national case for a long time, but a lot of you here in Indianapolis, and especially my listeners abroad,

[01:30] one. Before I jump into the case, I want to tell all my listeners about one of my favorite nonprofits. [01:37] This episode of Crime Junkie is brought to you by Crime Stoppers of Central Indiana. So now that you know a little bit about Crime Stoppers, if you had to guess, where do you think they get their funding? [01:49] Since they work so closely with police, I would have to assume that they're either state-funded or they get some money back from a police program. No, they actually are 100% a non-profit, and they get no money from the police and no money from the state. Wow, and they can still function with that? [02:07] Even though Crime Stoppers of Central Indiana works closely with police and is literally responsible for thousands of arrests, they receive no government funding. [02:17] All of their funding comes from listeners like you. They're a 501c3, so all donations are tax deductible. And as we're rolling into 2018 and you're deciding where you're going to donate your time and money, consider getting involved with your local Crime Stoppers. And if you want more information on volunteering or donating to Crime Stoppers of Central Indiana, go to crimetips.org. [02:39] So it took place in April of 2001. And in a quiet town in Scottsdale, Arizona, everyone's just living their normal life and [02:50] And at 8:42 a.m. on Tuesday, April 10th of 2001, there is a giant explosion that just rocks the neighborhood. And a home is completely blown up and engulfed in flames.

[03:08] There are 911 call after 911 call of people reporting this in. [03:15] Police are immediately dispatched to the house and the flames are at least 20 feet high. What they realize is that a natural gas line had been cut. So... [03:27] There was constantly being gas pumped into this fire, and the flames keep going and going until the entire home is absolutely burnt to the ground. [03:38] This takes hours to happen, and while firefighters are working, police are trying to learn, okay, who does this home belong to? Are there people still in the home? Where is the family? Are they at work? Are they at work? [03:50] What they learn is that this is the home of Robert and Mary Fisher. [03:55] They have two kids, Bobby and Brittany, who are elementary school age. [04:00] and robert is an employee at mayo clinic which fun fact also where i used to work so this was a super popular case at the hospital as well they try and contact robert but find out that he's not working that day and by the time hours later when they actually get the fire put out they realize that there are three bodies there and mary's car is missing [04:24] Now at this point, they don't know who these three bodies are. They do know that two of them are the children, just based on the size. But they have one adult body, and all they can do at this point is speculate. They have no evidence to prove if it's Mary or if it's Robert. And all they're trying to do at this point is put out an all-points bulletin for either one for the vehicle so that anyone who spots the vehicle can notify police.

[04:54] family is now dead. [04:56] After preliminary research, the firefighters and the medical examiners believe that it actually is Mary. And they don't think necessarily that Robert had anything to do with this. Like I said, they likely think he is either en route to work. They know he's not already there. They think maybe he's running errands or out to work. [05:15] just gallivanting around town. So they put it out on All Points Bulletin specifically for him, hoping that they can actually reach him and let him know what's happened to his family. [05:25] as they're trying to [05:27] pursue this investigation, they start learning more about Robert and Mary and their backstory. And they find out that they actually met when they were 16, their high school sweethearts, and they'd been married for 16 years. [05:42] - Yeah. [05:42] they were... Robert was a firefighter initially, and he actually had a really bad back injury, which caused him to have surgery. And after the surgery, he was no longer able to fight fires. And so he got a tech job at the hospital. Everyone in their life says that this actually caused a lot of strain in their marriage. He wasn't able to do the thing that he loved doing. He was angry. He [06:07] But everyone said that from the outside, they looked like the all-American family. They looked like they had a happy marriage. They had wonderful kids. They went to church. But as you listen to Crime Junkie in the multiple episodes over the next couple of years or however long...

[06:25] I plan on teaching you lots of lessons, and my first Crime Junkie lesson is [06:30] You don't know anyone ever. I don't care how well you think you know them. I don't care if they go to church with you. I don't care if you work next to them every single day. [06:41] My general rule is unless you are that person, you have no idea what goes on within four walls of a home or within somebody's head. Wow. I feel like you trust me a lot now. Thanks. I mean, like, so really what we end up finding out from the people that are closest to them. And when I say closest to them, I don't mean their friends and family that thought they had a good marriage. [07:11] relationship. Neighbors would hear them fighting and screaming at each other all the time. And what they said is that [07:18] when things would get really bad, the person who was actually screaming and going on was actually Mary. Robert would often just shut down and take off. If things got too bad, he would go pack up all of his stuff, [07:31] head up north into northern Arizona, which is like wilderness woods camping. And he would spend a couple of days camping, come back when he had settled down. And that was his way of dealing with it. He would just go off the grid for a couple of days. [07:44] Even his times away, though, didn't really solve anything. He kind of just ran away. And they would continue to have these terrible fights, and he was extremely unhappy in his marriage.

[07:55] What we learn later from people in the family is that he actually had had an affair at one point. [08:04] And he says, like, this is, like, a very sketchy story to me because... So he had this back surgery, and... [08:10] He went to a masseuse for the back surgery and [08:15] air quotes, "Fell into temptation." [08:18] Not... I don't know what massage place. He's like, they don't massage envy. It's not like I'm constantly resisting temptation. What massage parlor are you going to where they're like, oh, by the way... There is actually... [08:32] Okay, I, uh... [08:33] lawsuit out for Massage Envy right now for sexual harassment. No, shut up. There is. But also, I have this whole theory that like these little massage places that pop up everywhere. [08:46] are not legit, so I'm the wrong person to talk to about this. Well, he found one that wasn't legit because he actually ends up contracting a UTI from this affair that he has with a... [08:57] air quotes massage therapist. Yeah. [09:00] But he actually ends up feeling so guilty that he confesses to his wife and to his pastor. She initially is furious and sends him away. [09:11] He goes on one of his camping adventures, stays away for a couple of days, and when he returns, she agrees to work on their marriage. They want to go to counseling. She doesn't want to leave. And Robert says over and over to the people in his life that divorce is never an option for him. He came from a home of divorce. His parents divorced when he was 15. And this weighed really heavily on him.

[09:35] He swore up and down that he would never put his kids through that. I don't know what that means for later or how that goes into his decision making, but whatever, either way, he says divorce was never going to be an option for him and his family. They try and work it out, and there are... [09:52] Rumors [09:53] that he had another affair. I can't confirm anything anywhere that this happened, but people close to Mary say that she was talking divorce in the weeks before she was murdered. So obviously, Mary and Robert had their issues in their marriage, but I don't really know how Robert was as a father. There's a lot of accounts after the fact of people saying that he was awkward and weird with his [10:23] very normally sweetly with them he's with them on Christmas he's singing them songs he's playing with them in the pool so I don't know how much of that is actually true and how much of that is people looking back with this sinister view and trying to project that on a past image of him he seemed to have loved his children they seem to have an okay relationship [10:43] But now, you know, we'll never know. And we can only go by these old videos and what people are saying. So that all gives you a little bit of backstory of where Robert is at mentally, where he and his wife were at in their marriage. And this takes us to the day before the explosion, April 9th of 2001. It's a Monday, but Robert had the entire day off. So he's spending the entire day running errands.

[11:09] He actually replaces all of the installation in the attic. He goes and has the oil change on his truck. And then that evening, he takes his daughter, she has some kind of church event. His wife takes their son to an event as well. [11:24] So by all accounts, it's a super normal day, [11:27] And something is triggered that night when they come home. After they each take their children to the events, the next thing we know for a fact is around 10 p.m., they have an explosive fight. The kind of fight that neighbors say normally would cause Robert to leave and go camping for a couple of days and then come back. But they say that he is screaming, she's screaming. The fight lasts about a half hour, so from 10 p.m. to 10.30 p.m. [11:57] The next thing we know for sure is that at 1040, just down the block from their home, [12:04] Robert is seen on an ATM withdrawing $280. Now the rest of this is total speculation by police. [12:14] We know that the family [12:16] was murdered [12:18] But the question is, A, we can't prove that Robert did it, although that's where they end up going with this. And B, we don't even know when this happened. [12:29] We don't know if the family was murdered and then Robert went to the ATM and then fled, or we don't know if he went to the ATM, got money, came back, snapped, murdered his family, and then left. So the way the family was murdered is absolutely gruesome. I can't even imagine how anyone could do this, but he actually slits the throats of his children and so deeply that

[12:59] He does the same to Mary [13:01] slits her throat, and then I'm not sure why [13:05] But then she has a bullet put in her head. Now the bullet in her head comes from a gun that police cannot locate. Robert Fisher has a huge gun collection and a couple of them are missing. And one of the missing guns is the right kind of caliber gun. [13:23] that would have been used on Mary. So again, this is something that they find is linking to him and reason that they think he might have done it and taken the gun with him. [13:34] After the family [13:36] has been murdered, the killer, whether that's Robert or someone else, takes some kind of accelerant and douses the entire house. Because the flames were so strong and so hot, they don't know exactly what it was. They're guessing gasoline, but they can't prove that. [13:53] Bye. [13:54] And to delay the reaction, instead of just setting the house on fire right then, what the person does is they actually, from the furnace, they remove the natural gas line and then they light a candle in the home. So that way there's this delayed reaction. [14:10] where the house is slowly filling with gas all day while this candle is burning. And then by that time, it's 842 when this big explosion happens. And as far as we know, Robert has been on the road. [14:25] for X number of hours. That's really insane. It is. And I wonder, I can't help but wonder again, why Mary was shot. To me, that is more proof that possibly Robert was the one to do it. It just seems like overkill. You killed your children by slitting their throats. You almost decapitated them. It's not like she's still alive. It's not like she's still talking. It's almost just kind of like an F you at the end. Yeah.

[14:52] Is there a possibility that she was shot beforehand? It's possible. Again, like the bodies were so badly burned that I don't, again, I'm not a medical examiner. I don't know how they would tell, but she was shot in the back of the head and then her throat slipped. But either way, so either he shot her then and then decapitated her. [15:09] Out of hatred. Or he almost decapitated her. And then shot her. [15:14] Either way, I feel like it was overkill for Mary. Yeah. Right, right. [15:19] Amen. [15:20] He is gone. Again, they've put out an APB on the 14th for him. The 14th is when they actually declare him an actual suspect. He's the only person they have in this case that they can point a finger at. And they know that they need to talk to him. [15:34] And they bring in this FBI agent, Agent DeFonzo, who actually caught two [15:41] of the people on the FBI's top 10 most wanted list. So they bring in the heavy hitter. And he kind of does a profile on this guy. And what we really find out is that [15:50] He has a Jekyll and Hyde personality. He says that at work and at church, he wants everyone to have this idea of him as this church-going, God-fearing family man, but really he can't stay away from this darker side that he has, having affairs and going to strip clubs. He was an avid hunter, but not even really for sport. People say when they would go out with him, it wasn't the sport that he enjoyed. It was the actual killing.

[16:20] And he turns around and Robert is smearing the blood of this deer all over his body like a freak. So he's got this obsession with death and this darker side that he... [16:38] can hide less and less over time. More of a question for me than even why did he... [16:45] shoot and then slit the throat of Mary. What I cannot figure out, I cannot wrap my head around this, is why the fire? So if you remember, before he was a tech at the hospital, he was [16:58] was a firefighter. And everything that I've read on this case, police always point to the fire as he was trying to cover up the homicides. But if the guy was a firefighter, he's got to know that like it doesn't just disintegrate the bodies. You're still going to find bodies there, right? You would think. I mean, I will say that the use of natural gas as an accelerant is... [17:23] clever maybe [17:26] But it's still... [17:29] pretty obvious that he would know what he's talking about when it comes to [17:33] what fire does to a body. [17:36] Yeah, so to me, if he's trying to cover it up, also, this giant explosion, you bring up the natural gas, this giant explosion, although it's delayed and you're not attached to it. [17:47] It's still intentional. It draws so much attention.

[17:51] Like, if you would have just left the bodies in there, you could have had days or maybe even a week before people noticed that they're missing from things. If you blow up the house, that's like, I mean, big red arrows right down here. Everyone check out this family and they're going to know right away that something is wrong, right? Yeah, but you're also talking about someone who is diagnosed or... [18:13] pseudo-diagnosis, sort of a Jekyll and Hyde. If it was a passion thing that he set up, and then, you know, four hours down the road, he realizes, he comes out of his, you know, furious, enraged stupor, and realizes that... [18:29] this action that he put in place by blowing up the house was you know short-sighted at best he's not going to go back and change it well this kind of I guess leads me into my next point which was do you think that he just woke up or not I guess not woke up but like they had this fight and he just decided to snap because nothing about this seems planned to me even him going and picking [18:59] of their ATM. It is such a minute amount. They had money in their savings. They had their kids' college funds. They had 401ks. And this guy is going to murder his family and go on the run with $280? My next question was, is that all they had? I mean, I assume not, but I don't know. Um... [19:19] you [19:20] And also, so the day before the house blows up, I mean, why are you replacing...

[19:27] the [19:28] insulation in the attic. Why are you getting the car's oil changed? The car that he changed the oil in wasn't even the one that he took. So he's doing all these preparations [19:36] Like he's going to be around. Like why waste your time? If you have any inclination that you are going to annihilate your entire family, why bother? That's a really good point. But it also feeds into the whole theory of a Jekyll and Hyde syndrome. [19:50] I guess. [19:52] They officially make him a suspect on the 14th. [19:57] All signs are pointing to him at this point. And police are openly saying, we think he did it. He's the only one alive. Actually, Mary's parents, her entire family, stands by his side at this point and says, there's no way he loved her. He loved her. He loved the kids. We don't believe that he's capable of this. But unfortunately, I feel like I see this over and over. We saw it in the Scott Peterson case, where initially the family does, like they just, they're so baffled by it. And I don't, [20:25] I think maybe that's just like a normal person reaction. But I think anyone who's a true crime junkie like myself... The husband always did it. I will never stand by anyone. Like if you... [20:36] - [20:36] Always. Like, I'm very fond of your husband, but if you go missing and or die, I'm immediately going to point the finger at him and be like... [20:45] Absolutely. He did it. Because again, back to crime junkie rule number one. You never know anybody. You never know somebody. Right. And I don't care that you've been my best friend since birth. Like, I believe Justin did it. [20:57] Write that down. 100%.

[21:00] Nothing happens then again until the 20th. And this is when the family kind of starts to shift their suspicions. Well, the search for him turns into a full-on manhunt. And he's, [21:16] They actually start getting reports of sightings in Rye, Arizona, which is north of Scottsdale. Their best guess is that he fled and went up north to Payson, Arizona area, because that's where he was so familiar, where he did all of his hunting and his camping. Best guess, that's where they think he went. They start getting calls. [21:38] about sightings in Rye. And Rye is between Scottsdale and Payson. And there's this crazy story that comes in about two people that walk into a bar. It sounds like a bad joke, but a man and a woman that walk into a bar. The woman goes to the bathroom. The man walks up to the bar, orders a drink, and then immediately goes and stands by this fireplace and keeps his head down as not to a draw. [22:02] to draw any attention. [22:04] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[22:33] When the woman comes out, they actually end up getting in kind of a quarrel, fight, leave the bar. And then there's another sighting that night of a woman who is banging on someone's door, requesting to be let in. And she says, basically, she came up here with her boyfriend. They got into a big fight. And then he just left her. The police try and track this down, but they're not able to track down the woman. They're not able to track down the man. [23:03] confirm any of these sightings. So this leads to speculation that maybe he had a girlfriend that he was running away for and that helped him get away. The next time we hear [23:15] anything important is on the 20th. And this is when police believe that the case breaks wide open. They get a call about a car that was found abandoned, like way off of the road in Young, Arizona, which is up north near Payson. [23:33] They bring in helicopters and they confirm that it is Mary Fisher's SUV. So immediately they bring in the Scottsdale SWAT team. [23:44] Check out the car. And it's super bizarre. So I'll try and like lay it out for you. He, the car is a silver SUV and there's this long back road where you can tell this, that's like way, way, [redacted address]. So you can tell they went by this back road and then he drove from the back road way into the woods. But before he would have done that,

[24:08] What he did is got out of the car and actually manually pushed the mirrors in. You know how if you're in a tight parking spot, you push your mirrors in so you don't hit anything? Yeah. [24:17] pushes the mirrors in, goes and parks the car, [24:22] rolls all of the windows down, [24:24] And they find this car in pristine condition. So it's underneath all of these pine trees. [24:33] All of the pine needles are constantly falling, but there are hardly any pine needles on the car, which makes officers believe that it's been there for less than 24 hours. And they think he's abandoned it, but again, I kind of go back to... [24:48] You're going to abandon your car. Why bother putting in the mirrors? If you nick a mirror, you don't think you're coming back. Your family's dead. Why does it matter what happens to your car? [24:58] Yeah, seriously, that's... [25:00] a little bit bizarre. [25:02] Okay. And the most bizarre thing of all, and I know you're going to appreciate this. So within the house, they notice that a person is gone, which they find out to be Robert. They also notice that Robert's dog is gone. And I have always said the reason I, the reason I can never fake my own disappearance is because people would know I could not leave Charlie behind. He takes his dog with him, but when they find the car, he, [25:29] This is the craziest thing to me. The dog has made a bed underneath the car. And again, because I know you're wondering, he's a black lab named Blue. He's adorable. He's in the family home videos. But he's not tied up anywhere. So he could have been running loose in...

[25:48] I have to wonder, again, either why didn't he, if Robert was the one out there, why didn't he follow his master? Why didn't Robert have him tied up? If Robert's plan was to run off, why take the dog and then leave it with the car? [26:03] Right. I have so many questions. So there's this dog, there's this car, and when they actually, oh, and by the way, there's like a, he took a big shit. [26:12] on the driver's side of the car too, for, I don't know why, but there's a [26:16] bunch of pile of poop. They say it's human poop. I can't find anything if they actually match DNA to him or if they just assume. I was going to clarify if it was Robert's. [26:24] Or blues. So thank you for that. [26:27] Yeah, they said human. But they processed the full car. And super strange. There is not... [26:37] a single fingerprint, hair, or fiber anywhere on or inside the car. I knew you were going to say it was clean. [26:47] I know the only thing that they find a fingerprint on is on, there's a coffee mug in the holder between the seats and there is a single fingerprint that belongs to Robert. And they also find a cap, the ball cap that he was wearing in the ATM video. But I, again, couldn't find anything online to see if they actually tested it with DNA [27:17] They say they used this cap as a scent piece when they got cadaver dogs and search dogs out in the woods looking for him.

[27:25] So I would hope they do their due diligence to actually make sure they're giving a scent piece to the dogs of somebody that they want found. [27:33] Police then search the entire area. But we have to remember, this is the Scottsdale Police Department, which is a very metropolitan area. They are not used to searching dense forest woods. And there's this huge span of the Tonto National Forest that they are having the SWAT team basically go out and do. So they basically hit one square mile from, [28:00] but not beyond that. They're just not equipped to do it. They say that what they did find is leading from the vehicle were footprints, about a size 13, from the vehicle to a cave. And it was called Cave 41. So they actually bring in experts to search this cave. They bring in spelunkers. They have cameras with these little robot cameras, basically, so that they can go farther, deeper into the cave. They find nothing. [28:30] because it's the only one they can really prove that there's been any kind of human interaction with. [28:36] But there are 30 caves within a quarter mile radius of this one alone. So a lot of people believe that [28:43] That maybe he left the car and went into a cave and committed suicide. [28:50] They search the cave, they search this area, they search for three days and then call off the search because there's just...

[28:55] Absolutely nothing. [28:58] Cape Fear is a new series now streaming on Apple TV. This 10-episode psychological thriller is executive produced by Martin Scorsese and stars Academy Award winner Javier Bardem, Academy Award nominee Amy Adams, and Emmy nominee Patrick Wilson. When convicted murderer Max Cady is released from prison, he begins infiltrating the family of the married attorneys who helped put him behind bars. Watch Cape Fear streaming now on Apple TV. [29:26] and there's three major theories that come out of this of finding the car and number one [29:33] is [29:34] They think that he left the car there and wanted to commit suicide up where he's comfortable, maybe in one of these caves, maybe just out in the woods. [29:44] But okay, here's my problem with this theory. [29:48] Again, why bring your dog all the way out there if your only plan is to commit suicide? [29:55] You would think that you would at least leave him at home. If you love him more than your family, drop him off at a shelter. But why go through all the hassle of getting your dog and then bringing him and then leaving him? [30:03] Yeah. [30:04] "Why withdraw $280 if you're gonna commit suicide?" [30:10] He had enough... I don't think he stopped for gas, so he didn't need $280. You don't need to eat. You don't need... [30:16] any material things so why go with money [30:20] Right. The police believe after they searched the home after the fire that he had actually taken most of his clothes with him. So why bring your clothes if you're going to commit suicide? And more importantly, why hide your body? Everyone keeps saying, you know, he went into this cave and you wouldn't even hear.

[30:37] if someone shot themselves in a cave. But why? What is it? Like, what does it matter if people find your body at this point? It's not like you could be tried as a dead person. And the biggest question is why clean that vehicle from top to bottom? What does it matter if they find your fingerprints in your hair and prove that you were in the car? There's supposed to be no question that you were in the car, right? [30:57] Yes. [30:59] But let's go back to the Jekyll and Hyde theory. If he was in some sort of [31:05] psychotic break. [31:06] within the Jekyll and Hyde syndrome theory. [31:10] He may not have come to until he made all these other precautions and decisions. [31:17] See, okay, I think you're taking... I'm giving it a lot of credit. The Jekyll and Hyde thing. I'm giving it a lot of credit. I'll say that. And I'm not even saying that I believe it. Well, I think it's too... I think that you're... [31:26] I took it a totally different way than I think you are. Which, not that you're wrong or I'm wrong. I just didn't even think of it the way you're thinking of it. When he said Jekyll and Hyde, I just thought he meant this guy has two distinct sides to him that are constantly competing. And he's wanting to be two totally different things that don't coincide together. Whereas, I feel like what you're talking about is more like an actual split personality. Yes. [31:49] Again. [31:51] Neither could be true. But I'm just thinking if he was two different people, how deep did that go? And we don't know that it didn't go deep enough for him to blink and be like,

[32:10] Oh my God, what did I do? I need to, like, I can't live like this. [32:14] Okay. [32:16] So theory two says that he committed this crime. [32:22] then he just decided he wanted to live as a recluse and he walked away from his car to live in the woods and live off the land. Problems with this theory. [32:32] I say, A, why take money at all, or B, [32:36] Why not take more money? You had more money in there. If you're planning on never coming back to society again, you think you would stockpile a little bit, [32:44] Even if you snapped and this happened last minute, you think you would need a little bit more money to get by. Again, why take your dog if you're going to be living in the woods? Either you take him and keep him with you because you're best friends forever and ever, [32:58] like me and my homeboy. Or, obviously, or you don't take him at all. B, or C... [33:06] Why even kill your family? Like if you just hate your life and want to live in the woods. [33:11] Right. Just go freaking live in the woods. Like, obviously you can get away with it. Why does your whole family have to die for it? No, I agree. Third theory. [33:18] is that he started a new life somewhere else. And again, my problem with this is kind of the same thing. Why not more money? [33:26] I, the dog thing just so throws me. It haunts, I can understand. Yes. Because, like, I, like... [33:34] This sounds so bad, but I don't understand. I get why you wouldn't want to kill your dog. Not that I get why you would want to kill your family. One of my theories was like,

[33:40] why like [33:41] You get out there and you're gonna commit another homicide by killing your dog and then you and then you just chicken out. [33:47] Because you can't kill your dog, but you can kill yourself. And that was going to be like a legitimate theory of mine, but it sounded ridiculous. [33:57] So this is just constantly haunting me. I think the... [34:00] best thing that we can assume is that he just had this, if he did it, he just had this moment [34:08] where he snapped. [34:09] and then didn't know [34:12] what to do or how to clean up the mess that he had made. And so he just goes to kill himself or to disappear. But I have to play devil's advocate a little bit because that doesn't even make sense to me. He had never been even violent with his family before. He was kind of a dark guy and not a happy guy, not really a nice guy. But I don't know how you go from zero to 60. You don't hit your kids, but then you're basically cutting off their heads. [34:39] And I don't get why... [34:42] All the cover up. So even if he had snapped. And murdered his entire family. [34:49] And... [34:50] He like wakes up and snaps out of it. Okay, why even cover it up with the fire? It's clearly pointed to you. Your gun is used. It's your family. You're not there. You take your family's car. Covering it up with a fire doesn't make you any less of a suspect. Okay. [35:04] And then you take the vehicle [35:06] and completely wipe it down so that when they find it,

[35:11] There's no evidence that you took it, even though you're the only person who could have taken it. And the vehicle was seen in the ATM surveillance video. It all seems too clean and too professional. Like the fact, again, the fact that their throats were completely slit cut off. The gas lines broken to explode the house, not just set it on fire like a normal person. And then the vehicles wiped down. The only reason I can see for wiping down a vehicle is that... [35:35] there was some kind of print or evidence in there of someone who wasn't him. And it almost seems too convenient that there's this one coffee cup, which can be [35:46] placed in the vehicle with it you know what I mean to be taken out and placed in placing him there it all just seems too clean and too convenient and [35:56] This was, again, the sighting was back in 2001. He has never been seen since. Have we considered that this is just really convenient for him? What do you mean? [36:07] Is there a theory that [36:10] He did peace out, went camping, and his family got murdered while he was gone. He was just like, this isn't out and I'll leave it. I'll take it. [36:20] Oh my god, I didn't even think of that. [36:22] But yeah, they had a huge fight in his MO. Is it go camping? [36:26] He finds out that... Weird. The next day, he's at, like, I don't know, Waffle House. I don't know if they have those in Arizona. And find out that there's this huge explosion in his neighborhood. He realizes it's his house. And everyone in his neighborhood heard him and his wife yelling at each other the night before. And he can't go home.

[36:47] But also, he doesn't want to go home. And you think he just wants to, like, live a nomadic lifestyle? Because at this point, too, if you choose not to go home, you have to know that you're basically making yourself a prime suspect. So he cleans the car. [37:02] He has the dog because he usually takes the dog camping, maybe. [37:06] But then doesn't know what to do with it. Oh, yeah. And... [37:09] But okay, so then why ditch the car? Why wipe down the car? Because it's his car. I don't, I mean, I'm... [37:15] playing this out as I'm talking, so [37:18] I'm not going super deep here, but... [37:21] But I like where your head's at. Because that is a really good theory. Incredible coincidence. [37:27] But why would he leave his poor little doggy all by himself, waiting at the car for his master to come home? So the dog is something that everyone knows they have. [37:36] ... [37:36] He can change his appearance, but if it's even close to what Robert Fisher looks like, who everyone remembers is having a black lab named Blue, it's gonna- it's still- the dog becomes a witness! [37:50] This is the reason I can never murder my family and run away. The dogs. Well, and Niles is really, like, distinct looking. He has that patch over his eye. Everyone would recognize Niles. Well, so there are... [38:01] There were some sightings of him, allegedly, one from Guatemala, a [38:06] People were down there on vacation taking photos. And in the background of one of the photos, a man was in it. And he apparently had come up to them and started threatening them, saying, I saw you take pictures of me. I don't want to be in pictures. I've killed before. I'll kill again.

[38:22] They haven't released these pictures. The FBI still has them. And they say it does look a lot like him. But they weren't ever able to track this man down. Right. [38:31] And... [38:32] In Louisiana, there was also some sightings of a man who supposedly looked a lot like him. They were never able to substantiate these either. And the craziest sighting to me actually happened up north in Canada. So all of these are happening kind of all over. It's not even like there's this distinct pattern through like South America. So you know not all of these can be true, but this one in Canada is a little bit nuts. There is this guy who is in prison and, [39:00] And they say that he looks like damn near identical to Robert Fisher. Just so happens Robert Fisher's neighbor, who used to be his neighbor, is actually living in Seattle, Washington at the time. They convinced this guy to kind of go undercover. What they want to do is pretend to have this guy booked. While he's in the jailhouse, they're going to bring Robert Fisher by him and they want him to kind of check him out. He knew him super well, lived next to him for like 18 years. [39:30] If anyone can tell if it's this guy, we really think it's going to be you. They get the guy... [39:35] in this booking area, he's pretending to be booked for a crime. And they bring Robert Fisher into the hallway. And he says-- he does that thing most people do when he walks in. He scans the room. [39:48] And he says that their eyes meet and he keeps scanning, but then does a double take. And he said it looked like his heart was going to drop into his butt. He looked absolutely shocked. Like, what on earth are you doing here? To make it even crazier, the guy said he looked exactly like Robert Fisher. He sounded exactly like Robert Fisher.

[40:18] I was just about to ask for identifying features. And one of the things that the FBI always puts out is that on one of Robert Fisher's bicuspids, he had a gold tooth. Well, this guy's bicuspid where Robert Fisher would have had gold was completely removed, which would be such a good thing to do if you have this distinctive gold tooth. It reminds me of the Princess Bride, the man with six fingers. [40:45] Like this very like defining thing that tries to hide by wearing gloves. [40:51] Yeah, with six-fingered gloves. [40:54] So... [40:56] It seems like by all accounts, it's him. And this neighbor, like to this day, is like, no one will convince me otherwise. But apparently, they took fingerprints. [41:06] And the fingerprints didn't match. So they just let him go. And... [41:11] What I don't know is like, can you... [41:15] your fingerprints. I know you can alter them in a way. Like if I were to try and burn mine off. But that's something that you would notice. It's not like your fingerprint has been changed. Like you're... [41:24] you clearly tried to hide your fingerprints. Is there a way to alter your fingerprint? - I prefer to stay off any lists that I'm not already on, so I have not Googled that. [41:34] As someone who has used hot glue guns, [41:38] extensively. I will say that burning your fingerprints off is very easy to do and even burning parts of your fingerprints off [41:47] is very easy to do.

[41:49] I can't say... [41:50] Anything about altering them though? [41:54] Right. And they never released any more information or even pictures like showing, okay, this is a perfectly normal fingerprint that's just totally different. Or this is a fingerprint that has all these burn marks. So we have no idea why it didn't match exactly. I have to assume there are people smarter than us taking care of this. And it didn't, if it didn't match, they've checked, you know, every avenue. But I don't know. [42:17] In weight gain and loss there would be some alteration, I would assume. [42:23] I mean, your finger gets bigger. Right? [42:27] Yeah, but it wouldn't change the print, right? It would just get wider. But would that change the margins of the pattern? Enough to be considered altered? Yeah. [42:34] I don't know. What drives me nuts is I don't know why they didn't just take his DNA because I don't feel like you can alter that at all. And I think we would have a really open and shut case. Again, maybe they did. They don't. [42:45] The FBI doesn't owe me any answers, so they very well could have done that. No, but it would also require a sample to go off of. Do they have anything? No. [42:51] Other than his... [42:52] giant pile of shit. [42:54] giant pile of shit ball cap that supposedly was his um i don't know if anything else was left in the house that would actually be usable for dna um they do have his children's like bones so if they had you know found a body one day i assume they could match it through that through familial dna [43:11] But that was the last time, I mean, the last, like, really good sighting they had. Turned out to be nothing. And now he's still on the FBI's 10 most wanted list. And they think...

[43:22] Most people think he's alive and just living a normal life somewhere. But a lot of people think he went into a cave and committed suicide. And people are really passionate usually about whatever theory that they have. And really, I don't like we're probably never going to get answers. I feel like I end every episode like that. There's just no answers ever. Welcome to Crime Junkie. So what do you think? [43:45] I think [43:48] Well, okay, just because I, again, I love the theories that are just so far-fetched. So I like to think that someone else is responsible for what happened and... [44:01] Robert Fisher is dead... [44:05] Well, no, I think he's dead. I don't know what they wanted from him. I don't know what they would have done with his body. [44:11] I don't know. I think, but I think someone else is responsible for it in some way. And maybe it was an accomplice. [44:16] I just feel like it was all too clean. If he really just snapped, it was too clean, too precise. [44:22] too perfect. I totally agree with you. [44:24] It's... [44:25] a lot of [44:26] bizarre happenings that don't quite line up for him just snapping and coming to all these conclusions and outs. [44:33] without any like premeditation. Yeah, right. And I feel like if he really was the one that did it, he would have had to premeditate it. And if he if it was all premeditated, why didn't he take more money? Why do we have this question of the dog? [44:49] I feel like there's a lot more he would have done. Why? Again, put the insulation in your attic and change the oil on the car that you didn't take. I feel like there's all these questions that don't add up. And I feel like we're missing a big piece to this puzzle, but we just don't know what that piece is.

[45:19] where you can see the home that was burned down, the vehicle, what Robert Fisher looks like. They've actually done some composites for those of you who think he might still be alive. He'd be 55 years old now. And so it'll give you some good different descriptions of him, him with facial hair, him without facial hair. Again, check all that out at Crime Junkie Podcast on Instagram. You can also tweet at us. I would love to hear your thoughts on this case and what you think happened at Crime Junkie Pod. [45:49] newsletter. You want to tell them where that is? Yes, it is crimejunkiepodcast.com. We will see you guys next week. Crime Junkie is written and hosted by me. All of our sound production and editing comes from Britt Prewatt and all of our music, including our theme, comes from Justin Daniel. Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? [46:17] Okay, crime junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now, and I've been listening for years. I think you'll love it too. Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts. Chameleon.