The “Hitman” Murders

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[01:45] morbido in the house. Morbids! What the fuck is up, Kyle? So much is up. So much is up, in fact. So much is up. But you know what? There was a brief... [01:59] reprieve of joy there you go because i got to go to the ghost like you said it's important to experience joy it is you need enjoy the things that make you happy you're allowed to and it will keep us all sane so that we can fight fight uh you need it you need a little bit of your cup filled [02:19] Or you're going to be running on empty. It's the same as parenting. You need to fill your own cup. [02:23] to be a better parent. Of course. So just like try to do that. But yeah, I got to go to the ghost concert in Connecticut. [02:30] And it was... [02:32] As magical as it always is. I love that. And I got to meet some of you and you were awesome. Shout out to Deb and Bonnie and Chelsea. Lizzie, look at you. I said. She's famously bad at remembering names. I will forget. And it has nothing to do with the importance of the person. Of course not. [02:48] I am just like, my brain doesn't work this way. And I will, as I'm talking to the person, forget the name they just told me. Yeah. Because I'm so... [02:57] I'm so focused on having a conversation for me is like a lot. I think you have ADHD. Yeah, there's a lot happening in here, like in this brain. So like I... [03:07] Like there's a lot going on that makes it... [03:10] different. So I'm so concentrated on like the conversation aspect and like, be a normal human. Ask questions, respond correctly that I forget the name. Nobody wants you to be a normal human. And that for that, I'm grateful because I'm not and it's really hard to be and sometimes I struggle.

[03:29] Just be cool. Don't be all uncool. I was like, you know what? Don't forget the name because you're concentrating on trying to become a real human. So I said, remember these names because they were cool people. And they were cool people. You were cool people. And it was really fun to see you. And I love seeing people at ghost concerts that listen to Morbid because it's such a snuggly little family feeling at those concerts. I love that. [03:53] I don't know. It was fun. And I think Deb told me, like the Deb that I met. Oh, yeah. Not Deb Deb. Not Deb Deb. Although I did bring Deb Deb to her first ghost concert. I'm so sad. Pretty amazing. Obviously, like I like concerts. I agree. Yeah. We talked about this where they lock up your phones. It's just nice to not see a million phones. Oh, it's amazing. But I so wish that you could have gotten a little bit of video of Deb at the concert. Just like mid-concert. Yes. Yeah. She loved it. [04:23] who I met, said that she found morbid. [04:27] through ghost. Wow. So the other way around. Oh, shit. Which I... [04:32] My biggest flex in life is when somebody says, I heard about Ghost from your podcast. Like that is becoming a door-to-door missionary for Ghost is really great. It's going both ways. But now that it went the other way, I was like, whoa, we've reached a new apex. Because they said they heard the Tobias episode, like one of the interviews, and we're like, [04:52] I'm going to listen to this because that was fun. That's next level. I was like, wow, flex. Yeah. Okay. I like it. Let's go. It was great, though. She gave me a bracelet that says rats on it. Oh, it's like the Aeros tour? Yep. Aeros tour? Oh, they had a bracelet-making station in the VIP area. But like a gothy, gothified one? A little goth bracelet-making station. Did you make a bracelet? I did, and then I broke it accidentally because I'm not.

[05:14] it was just so full of joy it was a joyful time it was honestly it's the most joyful time um they were great everybody was great shout out to all of them and shout out to their team for always hooking us up i know their team is very the seats were fucking amazing i felt so like grateful i was like shit i just get to be here so mohegan sun is the randomest concert venue in my opinion but it's such a good concert venue it is i saw stevie nicks there and i felt like we [05:44] intimate. It's very intimate. Yeah. No matter where you're sitting, really. Yeah, it really is. And shout out to everybody there and especially the band, because I was like, [05:54] It was [redacted address]. It was so fucking hot. Well, because it's, like, all enclosed. And then Ghost has, like, there's pyrotechnics. There was fire at times. But you could see, and he, I think Tobias mentioned it, like, several times. Like, holy shit, I'm hot. Because he also has, like, all the, like, prosthetics on his face, too. He doesn't have prosthetics anymore, but he has that mask. And I think it's also just... Anything on your face. The costume changes are a lot of clothing. Yeah. Yeah. [06:20] I felt like the nameless ghouls are all wearing like full body suits. Oh my God. And I was like, I felt so bad. And they're just moving a lot and doing a lot. Yeah, that's exerting like a lot of energy. I was sweating and I know everybody else was, so I can't imagine how they felt, but they've fucking killed it. That's one thing I love about winter so much. Every time I complain about being cold, I'm like, oh, I'm not sweating though. I'm not sweating. I'm not sweating. Because I hate being hot. Oh, it's the worst feeling in the world. But it was great. It was a great time. I love that. I highly recommend it. Yay. If you can get to one.

[06:50] now though [06:51] I say that like no one's in Canada. People are in Canada now, so you can't go. People, in fact, are leaving here and going there. So if you're in Canada, go. Go if you can. It's a great time. I was trying to think of something Canadian to say about going to ghosts. Hey, [07:07] There you go. Always. Eh. You know? Eh. We love Canada. We love Canadians. [07:12] Shout out to Jordan, Nighttime Podcast. Sorry. All the Canadians. We love Jordan. Famous teacher of history at Sunnydale High. We love Johnny and Tyler. That's spooky. [07:26] Yeah. [07:27] Canadians are great. I love that. What else do we have? I thought we had something else to say. [07:31] I haven't been doing a lot lately. The only thing that I have to offer you today is that I put my laptop on my lap this morning. And I said, what the fuck is that lump on my leg? And I promptly flipped over my laptop and found a crushed Babybel cheese wrapper on the bottom of my laptop. And I looked up at Alina and I said, I'm disgusting. And I said, I'm a peanut butter baby. It was just, how did it become one with my computer like that? It was nuts. [08:01] I was like, you are reckless. No, it really was. One thing about me, I'm a very, like, don't, don't think I'm gross. Don't get it twisted. Because I, don't get it twisted. I'm a very clean person at my house. Like, my home is very tidy. Yeah. Here? [08:15] not at all no this couch that i'm sitting look at this yeah there's shit everywhere like what is what are these rogue napkins why is a phone in the middle of the cushion seats chapstick just a random package of chapstick we all need that right now and then don't even look in this corner next to me this empty glass from three days ago don't worry it was just full of water but what the fuck what is wrong with me it's pretty intense i don't i don't live here so yeah you know i do but i know

[08:45] Appreciate it. In a home way. It's true. Yeah. You know, we all, it's, it's just one of those things, you know, it is. And if you're looking for more joy, [08:54] Maybe you could pre-order my book. Oh, more joy. More joy. More literacy. More literacy. Footwork. [09:01] Do it. ButcherLegacy.com. [09:06] pre-order it. It's coming out August 11th. It's the third one in the series. You can grab The Butcher and the Ren and the Butcher game too if you want to. Give it a try. There's audiobooks for those two. There will be an audiobook for the third one. Barnes & Noble has signed versions. Barnes & Noble has exclusive signed copies. I'm currently signing a ton of them. I saw them at your front door. There's big boxes of sheets to sign. So I'm on it. You better start rolling those wrists out. And I'll sign as many books as I can. So if you want those signed copies, guys, go get them [09:36] from Barnes & Noble, and if they run out [09:38] She'll probably do more. Maybe I'll sign some more, but you got to get them to run out first. Here's the thing. Me and Mikey are always yelling at Elena because we're always like, you put so much on your plate. Anytime signed additions run out and they're like, do you want to do 2,000 more? She's like, yeah, that's no problem. Yes, I do. You have to sign all of those. Yeah. I respect the game. I'll always sign them up. I respect the hustle. Always. Anytime. So, yeah. Go do that because it's great and it's fun and it's fictional. Yeah. [10:05] It is fictional. So lose yourself in a fictional world. And also, again, I got to shout out fucking Phantasma, the book I'm reading right now. It's so fun. Really? I'm telling you guys, read it. It's a fun book. It's getting me into like a new genre, I think. I'm in a place of new genre, but we're in very different places. Yeah, mine's still horror.

[10:24] Related. [10:25] Mine's not at all. I'm fully in a romance era right now. I'm reading a lot of Emily Henry. I think she's fucking great. Hey, look at that. Shout out to Emily Henry. I'm reading Happy Place right now. It's a little spicy. Oh, there you go. I've never been a spicy book reader in my life. I love that for you. I know. Phantasma is very spicy. A little dark, dark spice. Yeah, it's like dark romantic-y horror adjacent. Fun. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I'm all over the place in my reading journey, but it's fun. [10:55] I need to tell you that you did something weird when you mentioned center stage. Oh, yeah. On The Pit, I think it's episode three, which I've been telling Elena to watch The Pit. It's so good, but she has kids, so it's hard to watch shows. I know. It's just one. It's on the list. It's also a very intense show to watch at night, and I understand that you don't. Yeah. You're not, like, flying into it. Yeah. [11:13] One of the actresses from Center Stage was like a side character. What the fuck? For literally like the briefest moment. What? Yeah. I was listening to stuff this morning. Carrie was talking about it. Why did Center Stage suddenly become... Is it Jodi in Center Stage? Jodi? Yeah, she's the main character. Yeah. I haven't seen Center Stage in like years. So what's that actress, Jodi, Center Stage... [11:36] Amanda Schull. Yeah! She was just randomly in the pit. Holy shit! Like a super quick appearance. That's... [11:43] so weird. And it was, it probably was right around the time that you said you watched it, because it was last week's episode. Oh my god. Yeah. That's really weird. Isn't that bizarre? Yeah. Yeah. When I listened to stuff this morning, I was like, oh my god, I have to tell Alina that. Why is center stage suddenly, it's weird when that,

[11:59] That happens a lot. It locks up like that. It makes you feel like life is a simulation. It does feel like that a lot because I'm like, what the fuck? Center stage? Yeah. Again, I highly recommend watching those old ass movies from the 90s and early aughts. Do it up. Early in your mornings. [12:15] While lighting candles. I walked in this morning and she was watching Scream. Yeah, I had Scream on. Classic. While I was trying to write a chapter. Let's go. In something. [12:25] What? Yeah, that's all she can say. I said elaborate, except I know you can't. One more thing before we get into the story. Fuck ice, abolish ice. Yes, fuck ice. Thank you so much. And yeah. [12:37] um, stop defending them. Like you're, they're your mom. Yeah. It's weird. So, so that, that's just how we feel. Thank you. And it's our podcast so we can say it. So yeah. So fuck ice. Let's go. Let's go. Okay. Fuck real ice because, you know, [12:51] It's really icy here as well. Oh my God. I didn't even tell you it was so embarrassing. I ate shit in my driveway the other day. I have a booty bruise. [13:00] I went down hard on my butt. Wow. Like, because it was, there was, you fall often in the winter. Yeah. [13:07] I feel like every winter you fall. Bitch, take out in the winter. I fall often. I fell the other day in my little garden. I'm always worried for you in the winter. It's okay. I'm going to be one of those old people that they're like, yeah, she just fell. She wasn't drunk. She wasn't on a substance. We're going to have to keep a close eye on you when you're old. I know. I'm going to get a walker as soon as I turn 60. Maybe 50. We're going to have to watch those hips. Yeah. Well, this one was just like, it could have happened to anybody, really.

[13:37] underneath the snow. Oh, that fucks me up every time. I went to walk around the side of the car. That's the other thing. I could have hit my dome on the back of the car, but I was all right. Oh, I'm glad you lived through it. One thing about me, I fucking love when other people fall. Yeah. But I also love when I fall. Yeah. So it works out. You can appreciate it. So yes, fuck all kinds of ice, but specifically the organization. [13:57] All right. So we're actually, this is an interesting case that I hadn't heard of before. It was obviously a Dave suggestion. Dave? This is a very... [14:06] devastating case obviously because it's morbid yes um but it's just interesting that i hadn't heard about this before because it's kind of like [14:14] Big time, a little bit. Big time. It's like medium time, a little bit. Medium time, okay. It's just, you know, we'll get there. So we're going to be talking about the Hitman murders, which involve Lawrence and Millie Horn. Okay. Who you might not know, but you'll be shocked that you don't know them, maybe. Yeah. So in the 1960s and 70s, Lawrence Horn worked as an audio engineer for some of the music industry's biggest record labels, like Motown Records and Hot Wax Records. Wow. Which is like huge. Yeah. [14:44] massive damn so during the golden age of like funk and r&b his name appeared in the credits of some of the era's biggest hits like the temptations my girl my girl my girl my girl my girl my girl oh we just paused to sing the entire song i was just so i was just so tempted to continue on it's such a it's such a vibey song it is well you can thank lawrence for part of it

[15:14] junior walker and the all-star shotgun damn i'm not familiar with that song i can't sing that one okay uh but behind his fame and notoriety he was hiding a sometimes very volatile personality that few rarely got to see okay but before we get into that let's talk about who he was in his earlier life let's go he was born april 18th 1940 in detroit one of two children born to pauline horn when he was born his mom was running a modeling school in detroit and she worked with a lot of [15:44] and dance talents. So his kind of like [15:46] Like the industry was in his. Yeah, I was going to say this was just like from the jump. Yeah. Years later, Pauline's daughter Elaine would follow in her mother's footsteps going after a career in dance and eventually traveling with her husband, famous ventriloquist William Tyler. [16:00] who apparently had a popular act with a dummy named Lester. [16:03] I'm interested. Lester the dummy? Lester the dummy. Okay. A ventriloquist act will get me sometimes. It will get me because it has such a... [16:15] spooky vibe to it. It does. Always. Inherently. Even when it's not spooky. Yeah, it's just there. Something about it is spooky. And it's also just incredible that people can fully project without moving their mouth. I don't understand how they do it. I don't either. That's why I think that's what it is. It's like something mysterious and like mystical. Yeah. And feels like it shouldn't be happening. Yes. All of the above. Correct. Well, after graduating from high school in 1958, Lawrence did a brief stint in the Navy and that's where he actually trained in radio communications.

[16:45] And he got experience working as a radio man on the aircraft carrier, the USS Lake Champlain. So when he returned home in the early 60s, Detroit had become one of the hottest cities in America. The auto industry provided hundreds of thousands of well-paying jobs. And black workers at this time couldn't really expect a great wage most places. But in the auto industry, they could expect a nice wage. So fresh out of the Navy, Lawrence did need a job. [17:15] industry. So life on the assembly line and auto plants really wasn't what he was looking for. Yeah, he was looking to get into the industry. Exactly. But luckily, cars were not the only thing that Detroit had become known for while he was away as the home of Motown Records. And it also at this point become a hub for like soul and rhythm and blues singers and for black artists in particular. So according to Lawrence, he managed to land the job with Motown Records based on his experience as a DJ on the Champlain, where he was [17:45] LT, the tall, cool one, your man with the plan. [17:49] That just rolls off the tongue. I said, that's suave as fuck. That is suave as fuck. You got to, like, tighten it up a little bit. Yeah. But it's suave. I'll give you that. Does it need a little trimming? Maybe. Maybe. But it honestly sounds great. You kind of have to decide between, like, the tall, cool one and your man with the plan. Yeah. You can be both those things, but maybe just leave one to the imagination. Yeah, exactly. What would you pick? Probably you should pick the man with the plan because that's an inner thing that people don't know yet. The tall, cool one, I can see that right away. Yeah, you can give that up.

[18:19] You don't have to tell me that. You give off that energy. Yeah, if I see a tall, cool man, I know that. And as a DJ, the man with the plan, like he's got a plan for this fucking ox that's about to blow your mind apart. You better get ready. Sit down. So in 1962, Motown wasn't as huge as it would become in later years. It was actually really just a small recording studio in the garage of company president Barry Gordy. That's awesome. So Gordy was willing to take a risk on Lawrence at this point. And he also, Lawrence got the reference of a friend of his mom. [18:49] Gordy hired him as an audio technician at $50 a week, which back then was a good chunk of change. So within two years, Motown Records had become a music industry giant. They moved right out of that garage. [19:02] They had the Temptations, Martha and the Vandellas, the Supremes, Smokey Robinson. Jesus. Ever heard of them? A stacked lineup. Truly. And they were all just scoring hit after hit after hit for the label. So as the label grew, obviously so did Lawrence Sehorne's bank account and his reputation. Yeah. In their heyday, there were, quote, unlimited expense accounts and trips to New York. [19:32] say that and a company card damn they were living that sounds lit they were fucking living they were filthy rich limos porsches dom perignon perignon so for lawrence who'd grown up the poor son of a modeling instructor and a baker that success was obviously intoxicated yeah of course for anybody really anybody could lose themselves in that yes very much so so in 1966 this is wild and i as soon

[20:02] this. So in 1966, he marries Juana Royster, who was a receptionist at Motown. Cute. In what turned out to be a surprise ceremony, even to the bride. [20:13] Juana literally had no idea. She had no idea. Lawrence planned the entire ceremony without telling her. And when she came back home and walked into her rec room, she found herself standing in the middle of her own wedding. [20:30] Say it. Say it, girl. [20:34] I... [20:35] I just, I'm just thinking of me. I would not like this. I'm a control freak. This would stress me out in a way I can't describe. Yeah. [20:47] But I think a person with more handle over everything about themselves would take this as like a fun thing. [20:56] This is, like, his fun personality, like, doing this. It's a toss-up. And... [21:01] So I'm just not that woman. No, me either. I'm not that woman, but... [21:06] I wish I was. I wish I could take this. I wish I was the kind of person that would look at that and be like, how fun and fancy free. But I'm not. No. One thing about me, you're a Capricorn. Like on the spectrum. Yeah, very much so. I just can't. I couldn't take this. You're a planner. This would stress me out. Like, I'd be like, I should have had control of every part of this. The biggest thing for me would be my outfit. Yeah. Because I curate my fucking outfit months ahead of an event. She does. That is true. And I would not be happy if I just rolled up there in

[21:36] fucking wedding. Yeah. And like, there's certain people that like, maybe I wouldn't want to invite that were there. Or like, perhaps the other way around. Yeah. I'd like to curate the food. I'd like to curate the decor. Basically, everything about it should be curated. Yeah. And I'm a good curator. So I'd be pissed. Yeah, it's true. And... [21:56] And I just like to know what's happening. Yeah. I don't love a surprise. No. I like a surprise. I can handle small surprises, but I can't handle a big one. I don't like a surprise wedding. No, that's a big surprise. That's wild. Yeah. A gamble. But it worked out. Talking about Lauren Slater, she said he was absolutely fun. Oh, see? She gets it. She gets it. That's what I'm like. That props to her. Yeah, she said he's a man with a plan. And honestly, she's someone who probably, I'm like, good for you. [22:26] She's much less tightly wound. Yeah, she's lighter. She's breezy. Let's go. She's breezy as fuck. Let life come at you. Let it. Good for her. [22:43] This episode is brought to you by SoFi, the all-in-one finance app where you can bank, borrow, and invest all in one place. Let's talk about bank accounts for a second. The average bank savings rate is 0.39% in interest. You're earning pennies on your savings and it doesn't have to be that way. [23:01] But with SoFi's high yield checkings and savings, the money barely making moves sitting in your savings account can earn over eight times the national average savings rate with eligible direct deposit. No account or overdraft fees. We love transparency. You can get your paycheck up to two days early, plus get up to a $300 welcome bonus when you sign up with eligible direct deposit.

[23:24] Sign up for SoFi Checking and Savings at SoFi.com slash morbid. SoFi Checking and Savings is offered through SoFi Bank and a member FDIC. Terms apply. [23:36] Getting scared is one thing. Getting a thrill is, well, you want more of those in your life. The Genesis GV70 is built to thrill, baby. A thrilling yet elegant design always makes driving the GV70 an exciting adventure. Its powerful athletic stance screams performance and turns heads. Everybody's looking at you, girl or boy or whoever. Command the road and experience a [24:06] modes for all different terrains. Choose between the different terrain modes for whatever road conditions you may encounter. The Genesis GV70's award-winning technology and performance lets you drive with comfort and drive with confidence all at the same time. It's an exciting SUV with intuitive tech that can make your ride smooth even when the road isn't. And its blind spot cameras allow you to see what's next to you. It's like having eyes on the side of your head. That's [24:36] it makes you feel confident, sexy. The Genesis GV70. Learn more at genesis.com and feel the GV70. [24:45] Every good detective needs a partner to support them on important cases. Think of a State Farm agent like your sidekick, there to help you along the way in your search for coverage. State Farm can help you choose the coverage you need, whether it's for your home, car, boat, or even RV. With so many options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you so you can get back to solving all of life's bigger cases. Go to statefarm.com or use the

[25:15] neighbor, State Farm is there. [25:17] although he might have been fun that was probably short-lived and it wasn't enough to keep their relationship together because the marriage ended in divorce after just about eight months [25:31] I mean, it's the surprise wedding. Yeah, it's the surprise wedding and probably the volatile personality. From my point of view, that would not be good. Yeah, no. So two years later in 1968, Lawrence actually left Motown when it was at its peak. And he took a job as an engineer with the legendary Motown production team, Holland Dozier Holland, who were splitting with Gordy and starting their own company. [25:54] A little messy. And their own company was going to be Hot Wax Records, and then its subsidiary was going to be Invictus Records. Oh, yeah. [26:02] So the label was hampered by an ongoing lawsuit between the trio of songwriters and Barry Gordy, who was like, you can't just leave my fucking shit and expect that I'm not going to sue you. But they did still find success with a string of singles and records by singers like Frida Payne and the legendary funk group Parliament. A lot of that success was due in part, at least, to the talents of their star engineer, Lawrence Horn, who stayed with the record for most of the 70s, actually. Damn. [26:29] Now, in 72, Lawrence met Millie Marie, who was a flight attendant with American Airlines, and he was immediately infatuated with her. Oh, yeah. It's the 70s, and she's a flight attendant. I mean, what more could you ask for? That's glam. That's Eleganza, baby. Yeah. [26:44] So they dated briefly, and in 1973, they got married. But according to author Rodney Smala, whose book we'll link in the show notes, he said virtually from the start, the marriage was a roller coaster. Which is not really what you're looking for in marriage. No, definitely not me. I'm not looking for that. Yeah, I don't like a roller coaster. Steady Eddie. I love a roller coaster. I don't want a marriage roller coaster. Lawrence recalled the early days of their romance as a freewheeling whirl. Whoa. Which is so, that just, like. It's very 70s. It's so Motown, too.

[27:14] write a song about that. [27:16] It seemed that even though they had gone through the formality of actually having a wedding and binding themselves together like that... [27:22] Lawrence did not take the relationship very seriously. He said, it was a lark. It wasn't a love thing. It was more of an arrangement. It was a distraction. It was fun. [27:31] Okay. [27:32] It wasn't a love thing. [27:34] I was like, marriage should... Why'd you bother? Hot take. [27:38] Marriage should always be a love thing. Yeah. Like, why did you bother? Like, you don't have to get married. That's the thing. You guys could have had a lark. You could have. You could have had a fun little arrangement on the side where you just get together when you see each other. That's okay. A marriage is not a lark. You're too consenting adults. Right. Right. [27:56] You don't need to add paperwork into it. That's the thing. I just never understand that. Don't write up a contract if you're just trying to have an adventure. Like, you don't have to get married. You really don't. If you don't want to, that's your prerogative. Yeah. [28:07] I just don't understand. I never understand these things. I have no idea. Because it seems like a lot of work and paperwork because marriage takes a lot of paperwork. So much paperwork. You have to like hold up your left hand and shit. Well, I don't really take this seriously. It's like, then why the fuck did you sign all those papers? Yeah. You had to go to town hall. Yeah. You had to file so many more papers. You have to sign a lot. You have to do admin. It's too much work if you're not totally committed. Marriage is, in fact, a lot of admin. Yeah. I never get it. And then if you want to change your name, don't even get me started. Oh, fuck that.

[28:37] in the first place. Millie gave birth to their first daughter, Tiffany, in 1974. [28:41] That [28:43] feel serious. That's not just a lark. [28:47] Unfortunately, though, the arrival of a baby didn't do a lot to improve things between them. Never does. No, it never does. If it's already bad, yeah, it's going to get worse. [28:55] So with his work also now requiring him to travel more and more often to Los Angeles, Millie was left alone a lot to care for Tiffany. And that can be a lot, like, in general, but especially as a first-time mom, I can't imagine. Of course. That was obviously a problem in and of itself. But by that time, things had already started to deteriorate between the two of them. And according to Lawrence, they just... [29:15] constantly fought over the least little thing he said yeah in 1975 millie was like i am so fucking tired of arguing with you all the time i'm so tired of you being gone when we're not arguing yeah so they separated and she ended up moving to washington dc to live closer to her sisters her she and her sisters were like super super close love that and when she moved there lawrence decided like i'm gonna actually move to la so i'm not going back and forth all the time [29:42] Now, despite the separation, because they very much were separated and the distance, Millie and Lawrence, they didn't divorce and they really didn't break up at all. Like, I don't even really know if you would call this a separation or it doesn't look like your typical separation, I'll say. In the 10 years that followed, they got back together. They broke up. They got back together countless times. And they actually even held multiple wedding ceremonies where they renewed their vows. Yeah.

[30:10] oh man so like what this is just a lot it's messy it's a lot so things between them would inevitably fall apart though within a few months or years they'd separate again for a time get back together and the cycle just continued and continued oh that sounds horrible it does later lauren said i never knew what to expect from millie it was like a roller coaster it was difficult being in a close personal relationship with her you don't have to be that's the thing like that [30:36] That wasn't required. You guys did bring a child into the world, so you kind of tied yourself together. Hey, you segued me perfect to the next part. Oh, hey. In 1984, during one of the periods when they were back together, Millie got pregnant for a second time. Oh, guys, you got to stop. [30:50] And in August, she gave birth to twins, Trevor. Twins. Twins. Holy shit. And it's complicated. She had twins, Trevor and Tammy L, 12 weeks premature. Oh. Tammy L spent a month in the hospital before she was deemed stable enough to come home. But Trevor's condition was a lot more complicated. Because he was born premature, his lungs were underdeveloped. Oh. And that led, obviously, to chronic respiratory issues. That was always my fear. Yeah, it's scary. That's so scary. It is very scary. [31:19] Eventually, he was allowed to go home with his mom. But in the year that followed, he was in and out of the hospital with breathing problems. So that is so stressful. Yeah. And then you add that very stressful, very real situation into a very complicated marriage. Yeah, that is treated as not very. It's just a lot. Yeah, it's a lot.

[31:40] of just sadness and stress and a lot. Yeah. So the birth of the twins and the complicated care that they required was just one more incredible strain on the relationship. But in 1985, things turned from bad to worse. During a stay at Children's Hospital in D.C. that September, Trevor's breathing tube accidentally came out. Oh, my God. And it took the hospital staff almost an hour and a half to get it back in place. [32:07] What the fuck? The prolonged lack of oxygen caused severe brain damage, and it left Trevor a quadriplegic. [32:16] Circumstances that would very much require lifetime round-the-clock care and assistance. Oh my god. Lawrence said that situation broke the back. The relationship never recovered from that. Even healthy relationships, that could... [32:28] That could break it. Absolutely. That's the thing. That kind of stuff is horrific. It is. [32:33] So at the end of 1986, Millie finally filed for divorce, which initiated a very long and very messy custody battle. Oh, God. And in the midst of all this. In the midst of all that. In 1987, the divorce was finalized and they were awarded joint custody. But Lawrence was ordered to pay monthly child support. By that time, he had left Invictus and was working as an independent contractor. But he eventually actually went back to Motown looking for more stability and a reliable paycheck. I'm actually shocked they took him back. I know. [33:03] to like start an offshoot project. But [33:07] Unfortunately, trends in the music industry had changed and Motown wasn't quite the powerhouse that it had been. And by the mid 80s, most of the label's biggest stars weren't very popular anymore. And they were struggling to find new acts to fill in those gaps. Yeah.

[33:21] In 1988, Motown ended up being sold to a larger company, and Lawrence stayed for a little while as a tape librarian. He got $28,000 per year, which is $76,000 in 2026. The salary was a very far cry from what he was used to. The money, the glamour, the Porsches, the Dom Perignon, all of it. But it did pay his bills. It allowed him to keep up with his child support payments, so he was doing all right. [33:51] nearly $3 million in damages. Oh, wow. Rightfully so. Yeah. $2.3 million was awarded to Trevor, $322,000 to Mildred, and $125,000 to Lawrence. Wow. But over the course of that year, Lawrence blew through all of his money that he got from the settlement. Jesus. Almost all of it went to lawyer fees from the ongoing legal battle with Millie. [34:12] Then in 1990, he was dealt another blow when he was fired from Motown Records. [34:19] Neither Lawrence Horn nor Motown has ever publicly provided a in-depth reasoning for the firing. Lawrence just blamed politics. [34:28] Interesting. So nobody really knows what happened there. I wonder what that was about. I have no idea. [34:33] But in the three years that followed, his bills started to pile up more and more, and Millie's child support payments stopped coming. By December of 1992, he owed his lawyers more than $65,000, and he had fallen $16,000 behind in his child support payments. In that same month, a Montgomery County judge ordered him to immediately pay the overdue child support, or he was going to be in some serious fucking trouble.

[35:03] he hadn't found a lot of work. He was broke, and now he was facing very serious consequences if he couldn't come up with that payment. Yeah. [35:10] So let's move on to the murders that we're going to talk about. Because she was a working single mother with two other children, and the extent of Trevor's needs was so great, Millie ended up hiring a nurse, 38-year-old Janice Saunders. And that was to help care for Trevor, obviously. Janice graduated from Montgomery College with a nursing degree in 1983, and she'd been working very steadily ever since. [35:33] In 1993, she lived with her husband, Michael, and their three-year-old son, Colin, in Virginia. And that meant that she commuted an hour and a half each way to Millie's house and back home. So she was dedicated to her job. Yeah. [35:47] In the early morning hours of March 3rd, 1993, Janice was working overnight in the horn house, and she was staying up while Millie slept. Millie had worked late that night. To pass the time, Janice was working on a cross stitch from a pattern, which was her fifth piece in the pattern. It was called The Parade. At around 2.30 in the morning, the phone rang, and Millie, still half asleep, answered, and her daughter Tiffany was on the other end, calling from college. Tiffany was like, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to call you, I meant to call somebody else. [36:17] up and went back to sleep. [36:18] Somewhere in the next two hours, while Janice was in Trevor's bedroom working on her cross stitch and, you know, listening for any signs of trouble or disturbances in Trevor's breathing. [36:29] a man entered the house through the garage door, which was the only door in the house that wasn't locked.

[36:36] the only door in the house that wasn't locked. Fuck. This man was armed with a silenced AR-722 caliber rifle. [36:45] And he crept through the house until he found Trevor's room. It's unknown whether or not Janice ever saw her killer. He stood several feet away from her and opened fire, striking her twice in the head and once through her eye socket. Oh my god. That bullet penetrated her brain, which killed her instantly. Holy shit. [37:03] This is a lot, just so everybody knows, obviously. [37:07] With Janice now killed, the intruder walked over to the hospital bed where little Trevor was sleeping. No. Eight years old, surrounded by his stuffed animals. Oh. The killer easily could have killed him by simply turning off the machines that controlled his breathing while he slept. But either the man didn't know that or he just wanted to opt for a more brutal death. Oh, my God. He placed one hand over the tracheostomy opening in Trevor's throat and one hand over his mouth and nose, and he smothered Trevor to death. [37:34] that is fucking evil it's diabolical holy shit so the distressed and eventual end of trevor's breathing set off the alarm on the medical monitor and the noise woke up millie who jumped out of bed and obviously ran toward her son's room she made it as far as the vestibule just inside the front door when the killer turned his rifle on her and again shot her twice in the head and once through the eye just like he had with janice oh my god [38:02] So the wounds were instantly fatal, obviously, dropping Millie to the floor just inside the doorway.

[38:07] Later that morning, just after 7 a.m., Millie's sister, Vivian, drove over to Millie's house. The night before, like I said, Millie had worked late. And Vivian agreed to watch Tammy L at her house while Millie was away. So she was coming back to drop off Tammy L. Oh, my goodness. I was wondering about Tammy L. Yeah. So Janice, meanwhile, stayed at the Horn House, like I just said, to care for Trevor. [38:28] When Vivian initially drove up to the house planning to drop off Tammy L, she was surprised to find that the garage door was open and she could see that the door that led from the garage to the family room was also ajar. This was very unusual because both Millie and Janice were super vigilant about locking doors and making sure everything was closed up. One door was unlocked. And as soon as she got out of the car, Vivian heard the sound of the medical monitor's alarm. And she later told police it only went off when there was no breath sounds transmitted to the machines. [38:58] It's horrific. It's awful. So Vivian didn't need to know the details. The sound of the alarm was enough to know that something, like there was an emergency here. So she got back into her car and drove home as fast as she could. And when she got there, she instructed Tamiel to call 911 and have them meet her at Millie's house. When Tamiel placed the call, Vivian went next door to the home of her neighbor, Deborah Falls, and asked if she would go back to the house with her and just

[39:28] Because again, she's in charge of this other child right now. So she's like, I need to... [39:32] Like, keep my wits about me. Exactly. So when they both got back to the horn house a few minutes later, they tried to enter through the front door, but the door seemed to be blocked by something on the other side, and neither of them could get it to budge. Unable to get in that way, Vivian went to a nearby window and peered inside to see what was blocking the door, and they were like, [39:51] And that's when she saw her sister lying on the floor. And she said, quote, with half of her face blown off. Oh, my God. The sight of her sister's body was obviously shocking. And once they realized that she had clearly been killed, neither woman went inside, deciding that they just needed to wait in the car for the police to get there. Yeah. So police and emergency responders got there a few minutes later, made their way inside and obviously found all three bodies. [40:15] The medical examiner also arrived a short time later, and after a cursory examination, he obviously concluded that all three deaths were the result of homicide. Yeah. The cause of death for Millie and Janice was very obvious, but Trevor's cause of death, while obviously the result of asphyxia, was a little less obvious upon first look. [40:35] At first, the medical examiner assumed that the death had been caused off by the turning off of the medical equipment. But later, after the investigation was finished and he was able to do a more thorough exam, the cause of death was changed to manual suffocation. That's so horrific. And it's an eight-year-old little boy who literally is unable to breathe on his own. And you look at these, like, if you look at pictures of, like, Millie and Trevor and Janice, like, they all are such sweet people.

[41:05] They do. They really do. Millie was beautiful. Millie was beautiful. Those kids are adorable. Oh, they're the cutest. And Janice looks like the sweetest woman. She's just got that, like, kind of face. And she dedicated her life to this. She drove an hour and a half each way to just go take care of Trevor. And she's a mother. And she's a mother. Yeah. She spent nights there when she needed to. [41:23] This was a lot. Horrible. So according to Vivian, who had been in the home countless times prior to that day, obviously it's her sister. Things did look like they'd been disturbed, she said, but not overly so. Investigators obviously considered the homicides might have been the result of a robbery gone wrong. [41:40] But they moved on from that theory once they got through their search of the home. According to court records, investigation of the Horn residence disclosed that only a few areas of the home had been disturbed. In the living room, a rug and a side table looked like they'd been moved. The couch cushions had been removed and thrown on the floor and everything inside Millie's purse had been strewn out, like thrown over all over the living room. [42:03] But nothing seemed like it was missing. And then elsewhere in the house, other rugs looked like they'd been kicked aside as an intruder walked by. And a few other pieces of furniture were toppled over. [42:12] But even though it looked like the house had been ransacked, to the detectives, it was, quote, in a cursory way that gave the appearance of having been staged. Yeah, it's very clear. Yeah. In fact, for all the mess in the house, other than Millie's missing credit card and her check cashing card, nothing seemed to have been taken. Huh. And as they walked through the scene, investigators did notice several valuable items just sitting in plain view. There was Millie's five carat diamond bracelet just out. Yeah, you're not going to leave that. There was a lot of other jewelry, too.

[42:42] several electronics and janice saunders jewelry and purse were also found in the house with all of the contents undisturbed interesting yeah so based on the brutality of the murders the absence of uh the evidence of sexual assault and the fact that nothing of value really had been taken investigators were left with only one theory whoever broke into millie horn's house obviously did so with the intention of killing everybody in there wow but who would want to kill [43:12] be such a fucked up individual. Absolutely. Like, [43:16] That's beyond. Absolutely, you do. So Detective Chris Wittenberg was put in charge of the case, and his thorough search of the crime scene appeared to support the belief that everything looked like it was staged, but it was not, in fact, a robbery. And he found some more evidence to that. In the basement, one of the window screens had been pulled away, and there were pry marks on the frame, but the killer didn't enter the house that way. It was clear. Yeah. On the back deck, the weather stripping on the doors leading into the home had been punctured, [43:46] is [43:46] And either of these would have been an easy access point to into the house, but neither, again, was the way that they go around inside. [43:54] And it seemed like they were made to look like they'd been tried and eventually abandoned. Okay. Unfortunately, beyond the obvious setup, there wasn't much evidence to be found. Later that day, though, some joggers did find Millie's missing credit cards scattered along the side of the road, not that far from the house. So nobody even used the credit cards. I was going to say, so they didn't even take them. So the fact that they'd been taken and immediately discarded was even more evidence that this was never about robbery. Yeah.

[44:20] Other than that, too, a trigger from an AR-7 was found in the woods a few weeks later by canine units, but the serial number had been filed off. Ooh, which makes you think it's professional. Absolutely. And then this is crazy. I don't. [44:33] think I've heard of this in a case that we've talked about. Maybe you can remember. Nearby, investigators also found a rat tail file with traces of gunpowder on it. And detectives thought that it had been used to scour the barrel of the gun to obscure striation patterns, which if you're not familiar, I wasn't. Striation patterns are microscopic marks left behind on bullets and cartridge cases. They're like fingerprints. They're literally like fingerprints. And it's when they're [45:02] somebody had taken that rat tail file to fuck with them that's literally because i took a ballistics class that must have been fascinating like an anthropology class and part of it was ballistics yeah and that was one of the things we learned about and to to scour that off is like filing off fingerprints right it's like firing filing off your own fingerprints after you've left them at a scene so they can't trace them right it's the same thing which is not they find those [45:28] quote-unquote fingerprint striations on that bullet, they would be able to match it to that barrel. But if you scour that off... There's no way to do it. And that's professional shit. Very much so. Like, what the fuck? Isn't that crazy? Yeah. I feel like we haven't talked a lot about striation patterns, but that's interesting. Yeah, there's a lot of interesting stuff with ballistics. You've gotten into it a few times. I always find that stuff really interesting. That must have been a cool class. It was a really cool class.

[45:58] Wittenberg and his team decided to focus all their attention at this point on a possible motive, because that's going to give you a story at least to follow a path to follow. The killer staged the scene to look like robbery. And even though they were pretty sure it wasn't, that didn't mean that the murders weren't about money. Yeah, you know? Yeah, for sure. So at that point, they started to consider who would have benefited from the deaths of these three victims. [46:21] Digging into Millie's background, they discovered that she had come from a large family with 13 brothers and sisters. [46:27] Damn. But they were all super close. They all seemed to be upstanding people. And by all appearances, they were still very close with each other. They kept in touch regularly. Like, this wasn't the path they were going down. Millie's sister Elaine said, there are 365 days in a year. And I was at Millie's house, 360 of them. Which just made me think of you. Yeah. Like, seriously. Seriously. [46:48] Clearly, whoever was responsible for these murders, they weren't going to be found among the family of Millie. [47:02] you [47:03] This episode is brought to you by Ashley. Your home should show off who you are. Ashley has styles that balance timeless appeal and modern trends to bring your personal look home. The eye-catching design of Ashley pieces is one thing, but they also offer practical features like stain-resistant performance fabric options that are incredibly durable, super easy to clean. Some pieces even have machine washable cushion covers, obsessed with that. Ashley offers well-crafted, affordable pieces built to stand up to real life, with great looks that are made to last.

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[50:55] you [51:00] So turning his attention to Millie's ex-husband, Lawrence, Detective Wittenberg started to learn the details of the divorce and of Trevor's medical history and the malpractice settlement from Children's Hospital. Even though they were divorced, under Maryland law, if Millie and Trevor both were to die, then the multi-million dollar trust fund set up for Trevor's care [51:20] would go directly to Lawrence Horn. As far as Detective Wittenberg was concerned, that was a very good motive for murder. Sure is. So suspicion fell quickly on him. But at the same time, the detective didn't want to rush into things. So he started questioning the people around Millie about her relationship with Lawrence. Millie's sisters all said unanimously that the divorce proceedings were hostile, like particularly hostile. And they also, all of them knew Lawrence had fallen well behind on his child support payments [51:50] everything [51:51] I don't know exactly what, but I know you can face jail time if you don't pay. Yeah, absolutely. Or they can start to just take your paycheck directly. Yeah. [51:59] So they all agreed that if anybody would have wanted Millie dead, it would have been Lawrence. But the most interesting piece of information actually came from Millie and Lawrence's daughter, Tiffany. The night before the murders occurred, she actually spoke to her dad on the phone. And according to her, her quote, her father had been obsessed with questions about where everybody in the family would be the following night, including what she knew about when her mother would be home and whether Tammy L would be sleeping over that night at Elaine's.

[52:26] That's so spooky. So he wanted to make sure that Tamiel wasn't there. [52:30] At least is what it sounded like. Damn. So Tiffany's interview supported the belief that Lawrence was involved in the murder. And 10 days later, he flew to Los Angeles to sit down for an interview with Lawrence. Before he got there, though... [52:44] He arranged with the LAPD to have the home Lauren shared with his girlfriend, Sherry, to be searched for evidence. So on the evening of March 13th, officers arrived at the house with a search warrant and neither Sherry nor Lawrence was home. So it's kind of perfect. Yeah. [52:58] When they searched the house, they found, among other things, a videocassette where Lawrence filmed himself driving the route from the Days Inn in Rockville, Maryland, to Millie's neighborhood in Silver Spring. [53:09] as well as a hand-drawn map of Millie's neighborhood that indicated which house was hers. [53:15] Huh. [53:16] There was also a piece of paper from a days-end notepad that had several phone numbers and other pieces of cryptic information. Yeah. So that's all weird. I don't like it. You don't need a map of anybody's house that you know. Yeah, I don't like it. [53:28] A few hours into their search, Sherry and Lawrence actually got back home and they both were shocked. They were like, what the fuck is the police doing here? And when they gave Lawrence a copy of the warrant and explained why they were there, he immediately protested. And he said, no, no, no. I have an alibi for the night of the murder. Better than an alibi, even. I have a videotape of me and Sherry in the apartment on the night of the murder. [53:51] Irrefutable proof that he was nowhere near Maryland when Millie, Janice, and Trevor were killed.

[53:57] Okay. [53:58] Odd. Very odd. Odd. Very odd. So the next day, Detective Wittenberg watched the tape. [54:05] In it, Lawrence and Sherry can just be seen standing in the living room of their apartment as the camera films from a position on a tripod. And at one point, the camera zooms in on the television directly behind them, and the date and time can clearly be seen. [54:21] That's convenient. Super duper. Wow. But it was irrefutable proof that Lawrence couldn't have been in Maryland when the murders were committed. But as far as Detective Wittenberg was concerned, like you just said, it was all a little too convenient. Yeah. And really fucking odd. Yep. [54:37] Like, why do you just have a videotape of you standing in your living room with your girlfriend that zooms in on the time and date? Yeah, that's a little weird. [54:45] I don't know, but I'm a little weird. Maybe one thing if it was like a birthday party or like... [54:50] anniversary or like something but just for the hell of it yeah like it's just strange i don't know about that [54:56] So it proved he wasn't directly the killer, but that didn't mean that he wasn't responsible for the deaths. Now turning to the only evidence of substance gathered from his apartment, Detective Wittenberg directed several members of his team to contact all of the days and locations in the vicinity of Millie's neighborhood. And they needed to get access to their registrations in the days leading up to the murder. Yeah. Great detective work. Yeah. I was going to say it's one of those situations that you're like, good job. So almost immediately, one registration jumped out at him. [55:26] the night of the murders, a man named James Perry checked into the Days Inn in Rockville, Maryland, and checked out just six hours later.

[55:34] Weird. He paid cash for the room, but he used his driver's license when he checked in. So looking over the phone records for the hotel room, it also appeared that Perry had got a call around 11.50 p.m. from a payphone that just happened to be located outside of the post office, which was a short distance away from Lawrence Horn's home, all the way in L.A. Wow. That's crazy. That is crazy. [56:04] a.m., [56:04] just after the murders occurred and just before Perry checked out of the hotel. [56:09] Huh. Interesting. Very interesting. So a quick check of James Perry's background revealed that he was a fairly small time criminal from Detroit. At the time of the murders, he was presenting himself professionally as Dr. Jay Perry, a self-described spiritual advisor and case buster. [56:27] Okay. Yeah. Spiritual advisor and case buster. Two things that don't necessarily go hand in hand. No, they don't feel like they should. I don't know. Yeah. He also had a criminal record that included arrests for felony assault, armed robbery, and he was known for being a con artist. Okay. Yeah. Now, digging into those phone records, investigators discovered lots and lots of calls between pay phones in the area of Lawrence Horn's apartment and pay phones in places where Perry was known to spend his time in Detroit. [56:55] With help from the FBI, Detective Wittenberg had an agent interview James Perry under the guise of just a routine check. [57:02] The agent told Perry it was just a routine thing. They were checking with everybody who had checked into the days in on that date. And Perry was like, yep, I was there. I stopped to get some sleep. I was driving for a while, but I still had several more hours of driving ahead of me. So it was a quick thing.

[57:16] Okay. He said once he rested, he got back on the road and he continued home to Detroit. [57:20] Now, using his credit card as the main reference point, investigators were able to establish that he had made several calls to L.A. on the trip from Rockville to Detroit. And between the calls from Detroit to Los Angeles and the calls establishing his trip from Maryland to Detroit, agents were very much able to get a warrant to search his apartment. Seeming a little sus. Yeah. So the search of his apartment didn't necessarily turn up much that was incriminating. [57:49] or much that was of evidentiary value. But they did find a large number of books, magazines, and catalogs about crime and weapons. Okay. And they weren't just the kind of thing that you could buy at any bookstore. The magazines and the catalogs would have had to have been directly ordered from a company. Huh. So on a hunch, Detective Wittenberg started calling around to some of these publishers to find out whether James Perry had ordered anything from them. Oh, interesting. And it took a few tries to finally get a hit. [58:16] But a company called Paladin Press in Colorado confirmed that James Perry had ordered two books from them in 1992. According to the sales rep, the titles were... [58:26] how to make disposable silencers, [58:29] And... [58:30] Hitman, a technical manual for independent contractors. [58:36] Uh. [58:38] What? Yeah, that second one. [58:43] Literally titled Hitman. The second one, Hitman, a technical manual. And remember, I told you, whoever killed them used a silencer.

[58:52] On their automatic rifle. [58:55] What the... [58:57] I can't believe that exists. Like, what the fuck? And imagine if this detective hadn't had the hunch to call those publishing companies. Seriously. [59:05] Like, [59:05] That's next level. This is right in your face. Yeah. Like he found the smoking gun like no kind of tended right here. Very much so. Holy shit. Thank goodness he was thinking outside of the box a little. Yeah, a little bit. You have to think of the time here. It's like the 90s. It's impressive. That is out of the box thinking at that point. Yeah. So now sensing that he was becoming the prime suspect or at least one of them in Millie's murder, Lawrence decided he was going to be proactive in his defense and he started offering interviews with any reporter who would listen. [59:35] by an associated press reporter whether he had anything to do with the deaths he said i couldn't be involved in something like that i couldn't have done that to trevor okay according to him any suspicion that had fallen on him was the result of accusations made by millie's sisters in fact he told a reporter he had decided to stay away from his own son's funeral due to the quote amount of animosity that they felt towards him so he was making himself a victim in all of this so many layers to that because it's like wow you're gonna blame her sisters and you're not [1:00:05] And you're not going to go to... [1:00:07] Could you not handle it? Wild horses shouldn't be able to drag you away from that funeral. Who gives a shit if people think you're it? I don't, I wouldn't care at all. No. Everybody can think I'm an asshole. That's my son's funeral. Yeah, you would go. And it's like, do you think you look better not going to your child's funeral? That's the thing. Like, what the fuck? But it's also like, could you handle it? Yeah. Maybe knowing what you maybe allegedly did. Maybe there's a reason you can't.

[1:00:31] So despite his attempts to frame himself as just another victim in the tragedy, statements from Millie's friends and family that came out in the months that followed really didn't do a lot to support his account. In April, two of Millie's co-workers came forward with reports that Millie feared Horn might kill her. Oh, wow. She was literally telling people that. And those were followed by reports in the press that he was unemotional when he learned of the murders. In response, he told a reporter that the murders had, quote, devastated his life and that he had, quote, nothing whatsoever to do with them. Okay. [1:01:01] What Lawrence didn't know was, though, behind the scenes, investigators were very capable of building this case and were building this case against James Perry. And that case involved that trail of telephone conversations that led directly to Lawrence. Because it always will. It always will. It always will. [1:01:31] first degree murder and they were both picked up in detroit and in hollywood on july 20th i i never understand why people think they're going to get away with that you're never going to get somebody to do your dirty work for you and always going to tie back to you that's and you're both going to go down that's the thing at a press conference the following day sonner praised wittenberg's team for what he called the most exhaustive and labor-intensive investigation in the department's history and as for the crime itself he told reporters this is not an ordinary murder case

[1:02:01] with a great deal of preparation and evil. Yeah. This is his own son. This is his own son and the mother of his children. Yeah. And the woman that has taken... Dedicated her life to taking care of his family. Yep. [1:02:14] Like, what the fuck? So in response to the charges, his lawyer told reporters, I spoke to Mr. Horn at some length last evening. He continues to maintain his innocence and continues to vehemently deny any involvement in these murders. Then how is he connected to the hitman? Exactly. Like, come on. Yeah. [1:02:44] so paid him. Yeah, babe, you can't get out of it. They literally had evidence of payment. How do you explain that? You can't. You can't. So James's trial began October 12th, 1995. And by that time, the case had been covered very extensively in the press. And Sonner's decision to ask for the death penalty made it even more sensational for trial watchers. Yeah. So the biggest challenge for prosecutors, Bob Dean and Teresa Whalen, was the fact that the entire case against Perry was based on circumstantial evidence. [1:03:14] own logs showing that contact between the two. They did have the financial transaction and the two books, Hitman and Silencer, but nothing directly connecting him to the murders from a legal standpoint. Exactly. So rather like forensics. Yeah. So rather than try to minimize that fact, Teresa Whelan actually leaned into it, which was a smart way to go about this. She told the jury, James Perry did better than leaving his fingerprint at the scene because

[1:03:44] The blueprint. Literally. He had followed the instructions in Hitman to the letter, which was the most compelling evidence that he committed those murders. That is such a smart... [1:03:53] way to go about it is a not we don't need a fingerprint yeah he has the blueprint we have the book that we know he has yep and he followed it to the teeth and not only like has but special ordered yeah and it's like and this blueprint is exactly why we don't have this fingerprint yeah so ultimately the jury agreed and uh october 12th after deliberating for just uh four hours they found him guilty on all three counts of first degree murder and one count of conspiracy to [1:04:21] A few days later, on October 16th, that same jury sentenced him to death by lethal injection for those murders and a life sentence for the conspiracy charge. [1:04:30] His sentence was the first time a Maryland jury had returned a death sentence in 15 years. In almost 15 years. Wow. [1:04:38] So it was a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. [1:04:40] Which is another reason that I'm just shocked I hadn't heard of this case. I know. So Lawrence's trial followed a few months behind Perry's with Dean and Whalen also leading the prosecution and presenting pretty much the same case to a new jury. Rodney Smuller wrote, in many respects, the Horn trial was a replay of James Perry's case, but the Horn trial was far more emotionally intense, of course. The kid's father. [1:05:02] And like his estranged wife. Yeah. Among other things, the trial featured a lot of lengthy readings from Hitman, including a passage that suggested Hitman should, quote, look for clients in messy divorce cases. Wow. Spot on. That is such a I can't believe that that exists. How disgusting. Well, I have good news for you. Good.

[1:05:32] I can't even. [1:05:34] I can't imagine that. No. Her detailed account of finding her sister's body caused another one of Millie's sisters to start crying uncontrollably. She actually had to be removed with assistance, which is just, I don't know how you can sit there and not uncontrollably cry. The most damning testimony, though, came from Tiffany. [1:05:53] who told the court that her father, quote, told me once that Trevor could never be a real son to him because of his condition. [1:06:01] That's fucking disgusting. Truly. That is so shameful. Absolutely. That's fucking disgusting. Absolutely. It is one to say that at all. [1:06:09] or to have those feelings to your other child who's disgusting that's his older sister yeah that's disgusting unreal [1:06:17] So the jury in the Horn trial found the prosecution's case just as compelling as the jury in the Perry case, luckily. And on May 4th, Lawrence Horn was found guilty of three counts of first degree murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder. According to the press, he betrayed no emotions as the verdicts were read in a packed courtroom. Just stone-faced. He doesn't give a shit. No. After the verdicts were announced, Janice Saunders' sister, Terry Krebs, told reporters, there's no joy in this decision because joy was taken from us on March 3rd, 1993. [1:06:47] Tiffany was more satisfied with the outcome. She said, I'm just glad we got a guilty verdict. Not only were my mother and my brother and Janice killed, but my family was destroyed. I hope when this is over, we'll be able to rebuild it because all we have is family. Oh, that just breaks my heart. It's like, [1:07:01] Babe, how does your fucking daughter know that at 20 years old or like a little bit older at this point? And you don't. Yeah.

[1:07:06] You don't realize that all you have is family. Yeah. And that you don't fucking turn your back and kill your whole family. And to say that child was not a real son because of what he had gone through... [1:07:15] What the fuck? What? That's so gross. Because he has difficulty breathing, and it had a tragic event. Yeah. Take so many things away from him. He's not your real son. That's disgusting. [1:07:26] So on May 17th, the jury convened and he was sentenced to life in prison with no possibility for parole. Bye. [1:07:33] In 2001, of course, there was an appeals, an automatic appeal because James Perry had got the death penalty. He argued, among other things, that his constitutional rights have been violated when investigators stopped his phone. It's always constitutional rights. The justices ultimately did reverse the lower court's decision, but it was with no enthusiasm. They wrote, when due process demands, the law will reverse the conviction of an undisputed and cold-blooded killer, even on a technicality, because it must. [1:08:03] When it does so, it does so reluctantly and with a heavy heart and only because it must. So they were like, our backs are up against a corner here. We don't want to do this, but we have to. So after the conviction was overturned, the state district attorney consulted with the victim's families on what they would prefer if they wanted Perry to be tried again or if they wanted him to just get a plea deal. I like when they do this. Yeah, it's cool. They all agreed that he should be retried for the murders.

[1:08:33] phone tapping evidence, he was found guilty again. However, this time the jury sentenced him to four life sentences without the possibility of parole. Honestly, let's go. Basically the same thing. [1:08:44] On December 30th, 2009, he died of an undisclosed illness at Maryland's Jessup Correctional Institution. And Lawrence Horn also died in prison of an undisclosed illness on February 11th, 2017. Peace. [1:08:57] Bye. Following the conviction of James Perry, Elaine Rice ended up filing a suit against the Paladin Press and its owner, Peter Lund, arguing that their books had contributed to the death of Janice Saunders, Millie, and Trevor Horn. I'm not usually for this kind of thing. No, me neither. I'm fully for this in this case. I am very much not for, you know, banning books, anything like that. This kind of book? Abso-fucking-lutely. A book that is a literal manual to murder someone? [1:09:27] of it, that's fucked up. This isn't fiction. This isn't a discussion of this kind of stuff. This is a literal how-to guide. I mean, that's the line. I can't believe it ever was even published, to be honest. Yeah, that's wild. Lawyer Howard Siegel said, it's a murder manual. Literally. Perry bought the book from Palladin. He followed 27 specific instructions in the book, and he executed three human beings. Yeah, I mean, to me, maybe somebody else feels differently about [1:09:57] Banning books, I am 100% not for, obviously. [1:10:01] This one has no place. No, it just doesn't. It's not a book. It's a murder manual. That's literally what it is. That's not a book. Precisely. In their defense, Lund argued, quote, we didn't have anything to do with inciting Mr. Perry to murder. And how many ways did these particular killings differ from what was written from the killings described in the Hitman manual? It's like they didn't really. He followed it to a T. He followed it. So in February 97, the court ruled that Hitman was not protected by the First Amendment.

[1:10:31] its role in three murders. So this is a big deal. Two years later in 99, Palladin Press did agree to settle out of court with the family. [1:10:40] Not because they accepted their role in the murders, they said, but because their insurance company refused to continue liability coverage because these costs were insane at this point. Yeah. In addition to paying for the financial penalties, they did agree to destroy the remaining copies of the book and they surrendered their rights to the work. Wow. And that is the hitman murders, the murders of... [1:11:03] Millie, Trevor, and Janice. What a... [1:11:07] horrific case it really is a horrific and completely senseless case so senseless it was all for money yeah [1:11:16] It was all just so that he could live the life that he wanted to live again. He didn't want to keep having a pay. Selfishness. Selfishness. [1:11:21] Like... [1:11:23] I'm just that... [1:11:24] That got me. Yeah, it's a horrible case. And it's just surprising. [1:11:29] I hadn't heard of that one before. I am like an eight-year-old who has already gone through... [1:11:36] everything that trevor has gone through yeah the worst laying there surrounded by stuffed animals unable to move unable to move unable to protect himself and his mother who has done everything to try to take care of those kids and work for those yeah she's working her ass off and like working overnight to pay for a nurse essentially she was a single mother absolutely absolutely [1:11:55] It's so fucked up. And this nurse who has, like, dedicated her whole life to helping this family. Like, fuck you. And you killed some of the best of the best people, it seems.

[1:12:04] It's so sad. Damn. That's rough. It's a rough one, yeah. I'm so happy that he died in prison. I'm glad justice was served. And that the hitman died in prison as well. I hope his... [1:12:14] I hope his remaining children and family and like Millie's family are fucking thriving. Yeah. Well, and I like what Tiffany said, like this destroyed my family, but I hope we can rebuild because that's all you have is family. Yeah, I hope they did. I hope they're thriving. I really do. I hope they're so happy and healthy and healthy. [1:12:31] I wish them all the best. Living the best lives. All right. Do you want a fun fact? Yes. I crave a fun fact right now. This one I found, I was just like, that really is fun. Many animals are able to predict earthquakes to varying levels of success, but snakes are the most reliable. They can sense an earthquake from as far as 75 miles away, and they can even sense an earthquake five days before it actually occurs. [1:12:57] That is the funnest fact. Isn't it? And when they sense an earthquake, they leave their nest, even if it's too cold out. They're like, I'm not staying here for this shit. I don't think this shit's going to collapse. Isn't that fascinating? Wow. And that was from the fact site. Shit. Yeah. Yeah. [1:13:10] And I wonder if it's just something to do with how grounded to the earth they are all the time. Yeah. Their entire lives are grounded to the earth. They can feel their whole body. [1:13:19] They can feel like a shift. That is cool as hell. It is cool. Snakes creep me out, but I really like them. I really like snakes. I really like them. I held a giant snake at my youngest birthday party. That's cool. And I felt like Britney Spears. Absolutely. It's Britney. It was, I was like, I love this snake. You said, every time they turn the lights down. The snake was so sweet. Oh. She was like a beautiful...

[1:13:43] lady i love that and i felt like we connected you did hell yeah snakes i love it [1:13:49] I'm obsessed. Damn. Alright, well, think about snakes. Yeah. Think about genuine snakes, not human snakes, like that guy Lawrence. And, and, and James Perry. Yeah. But, yeah, think about snakes, order Lena's books, watch Center Stage, watch The Pit, find joy, and abolish ice. Yeah! We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird! But not so weird that you say, we're virtue signaling. Bye. Yeah. [1:14:19] Thank you. [1:14:49] Thank you.

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