NBA Panic Rankings, NFL Draft Guesses, and a Michael Jackson Movie Review | With Todd McShay, Steve Muench, and Van Lathan

[00:00] This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it. [00:13] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [00:17] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [00:20] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905. [00:29] *music* [00:34] The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by FanDuel. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday. We did Kindergarten Cop. It is available on Netflix. [00:45] as well. Next week, Ghostbusters. [00:48] which you can also watch on Netflix. That's coming with me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan. We have some Ringer stuff for you. Sean Fantasy, you might have heard from him, hosted The Big Picture. I've worked with him since 2012. [01:00] He put up a new newsletter today that you can subscribe to about movies. Did it with the ringer and sub stack and Spotify. It's called projections. He'll be writing about movies at least once a week. [01:12] If you like Sean, I'm pretty confident you're going to like the newsletter. He's going to be on here Thursday to discuss it. Jordan Kahn, who's been with us since Grantland, came to us. [01:21] along when we started The Ringer. [01:23] one of the best long form writers in the country. He has a new book that came out today called American Men. It's excellent. If you like reading books, I would recommend it. And then Legata, the third episode of that podcast, which I told you, if you like Scarface and Miami Vice and 80s cocaine, all that stuff.

[01:39] This is the podcast for you. Legata third episode is up now. On this podcast, I'm going to be reacting to all the basketball tonight, plus the basketball yesterday at the very top of this. And then I have Todd McShay and Steve Mensch. We taped earlier today, a whole bunch of NFL draft stuff, all of our thoughts, all of our [02:01] I threw some crazy stuff at them. Are there going to be any crazy wrinkles? What's going to happen in this draft? Covered it all. And then last but not least, Van Lathan came on because he saw the Michael Jackson movie and he thought it was abominable. And we talked about the movie and the state of biopics and documentaries and all the stuff that seems to be going in the wrong direction these days. So that's all coming up next. I'm going to join you right after the break. [02:25] First Pro Jam. [02:27] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. [02:31] The NBA postseason is here, and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win. [02:36] is winning along with them. Fando, the best place to bet the teams, players, and plays during their playoff run. [02:42] Build the same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip-off. Don't forget with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. [02:48] Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now. [02:51] and play your game. [02:52] 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call [redacted phone] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut.

[03:29] All right, I am taping this top part of the podcast. [03:33] 23. [03:34] Pacific time. [03:36] on Tuesday night because I stupidly stayed up until the end of this Lakers-Rockets game. [03:41] Thinking something spectacular would happen. [03:43] And it was spectacular if a rock fight that almost injured people in the first couple rows of the seats were spectacular with all the bricks and air balls. And, oh, my God, it was so bad. I'd like to apologize to Gahau and Eduardo, who are my behind-the-scenes team. I made them stay up late. Now they have to put this podcast up because I thought it would be worth it. [04:03] It wasn't worth it. We should have done this two hours ago. Katie came back. [04:08] So that was a wild card. He had nine turnovers, four or five in the fourth quarter. [04:14] partly his fault, but also like, A, why is he out there? B, why is he doing so much? Because he clearly didn't seem 100%. Reed Shepard, this might have been it for Eme and Reed Shepard. I think he played, what do I have here? [04:28] 10 minutes, 0 for 4 for Reed Shepard, the number three pick of the 2024 NBA draft. One pick ahead of Stephon Castle. Houston, they changed some stuff up. They pressured. [04:40] A game late with that idea, when you have Marcus Smart and LeBron James and Luke Kennard bringing the ball up, why not pressure those guys 94 feet, Jaden McDaniel style, they didn't do that. [04:50] I looked it up. Nobody has ever been fired during a series before, so I think Emei Doka is safe probably until after the series, but they're down 0-2.

[04:59] And the big thing for me, [05:02] The fact that they didn't trade for C.J. McCollum at any point during the season before Atlanta got him is just bonkers. It felt like the natural thing that was going to happen after Van Vliet got hurt and the salaries kind of lined up. Houston has a bunch of extra picks. Washington basically... [05:21] They were ready to give away McCollum. They finally ended up putting him in a Trae Young deal, which really they're taking Trae Young off Atlanta's hands. [05:30] McCollum goes and he's one of the stars of game two and one of the potential stars of the playoffs. He's [05:36] almost becoming a villain on MSG with the New York fans, even though, as he said after the game, I'm the least villainy guy possible. [05:45] I don't know why Houston didn't trade for him. I don't get it. They thought they were good with the team. Like they like having Van Vliet around. Van Vliet can't play until next year. [05:54] Like worst case scenario, he could just opt out of his contract. You can resign him. But it's weird to me that they didn't do anything. And the email clearly doesn't trust Reed Shepard. So- [06:03] Can the Lakers actually pull this off? Because we got info today. Maybe Luka wouldn't be around. [06:09] Until round two. That maybe Reeves was actually a better option to come back. I'm looking at the playoff odds right now. [06:18] Houston, wow, Lakers minus, they're up 2-0 in the series with Game 7 at home, and they're minus 120 on FanDuel because everybody's like, well, maybe Houston's going to turn it around. I don't know. The team I watched tonight.

[06:31] I don't see it. I mean, just to come back from 2-0 in a series... [06:36] the percentages are against you but the way they the chemistry in the court Durant not looking 100% Shingun looks like he's already on Redfin looking at Milwaukee houses for the inevitable Giannis trade that I'm starting to feel like could happen [06:53] Could the Lakers do this? [06:57] And I don't know why I'm excited about it, because I hate the Lakers, but it would just be more fun to have them in the next series if Luka can come back against OKC. By the way, OKC, big winner of round one. [07:08] right? But like Wemby, Wemby gets concussed, which we'll talk about in a second, but that series looks like it's going to go longer. Denver, Minnesota is going to be a war. Meanwhile, OKC is going to cruise through round one and then they're going to get one of these two teams in round two. Holy shit. Um, [07:24] Panic rankings. [07:26] I wanted to take you into the NBA panic room really quick. I have the Rockets now, number one, because if you lose this series – [07:33] If you lose this series to this Lakers team, you got to be kidding me. [07:41] Honestly, you got to be kidding me. That would be just one of the dumbest playoff losses I can remember. Your 41-year-old LeBron, Luke Kennard, who anybody could have had, Marcus Smart hitting corner threes, Jackson Hayes is out there. [07:56] you [07:57] I just can't believe it. How many lottery picks does Houston have?

[08:01] I think they had five or six guys who were taken in the top five of the lottery. Oh, my God. Anyway, if you're number one. [08:11] And I blame Houston for the fact that it's 1027. I'm doing a podcast right now. Anyway, number two. [08:18] The Spurs. [08:20] Wemby gets concussed on the night that he is given the Defensive Player of the Year Award, and it looked bad immediately. It was not great. [08:27] and in football, the concussion protocol is like at least a week. Who knows with basketball? He's definitely not going to be in game three. [08:36] but maybe he comes back for game four. But at the very least, Portland steals one. [08:43] If you're San Antonio, there's some questions that come out of that game that I had already been thinking about. When he comes out of it, obviously he's their best offensive player. But my fear with them all along was like shot creation in half court when you're in a playoff atmosphere and you've got to create shots. And really it was just Fox. Fox was the only – everything was on Fox and Portland could kind of shut it down. [09:06] Then it comes down to Drew Holiday, who had 16-5-9, classic Drew winning basketball, gets the block in the corner, gets the go-ahead basket on the putback on an air ball, always in the right place, right time. That's why they traded for him. [09:21] And then... [09:22] This Scoot Henderson game. [09:24] 31 points. So Nick Wright texted me this. He now has 10 more career playoff points than Wemby. [09:30] I feel like I'm still in it with Scoot.

[09:33] Can't give up yet. I thought Scoot was awesome today. Now he had one rebound and zero assists, but the defense – [09:39] And the fearlessness in the athleticism was what we thought it might be when, you know, I was arguing him versus Brandon Miller. And I conceded to KOC. Sorry, Kevin O'Connor. I conceded to you. [09:52] two months ago that you won the Brandon Miller versus Scooter argument. Now I feel like I'm alive. I just climbed out of the coffin. [09:57] And congrats to Portland owner El Chippo. [10:01] who the guys after the game, they were pouring tap water on each other because he probably didn't have alcohol in the locker room. But El Chippo gets a win. Now he goes back to Portland for game three. No T-shirts for those fans because those T-shirts are expensive. [10:16] Anyway, the Spurs... [10:19] I have them at the top here in the panic because if they don't have Wemby for either of these Portland games... [10:24] I think Portland's legitimately good. Like Toronto, bogus five seed. Just bogus with a capital B. [10:30] Houston, bogus five-seed. [10:32] Not capital B bogus, but bogus. Portland, Portland. [10:35] Frisky seven seed. I think Portland's a better playoff team than either Houston or Toronto. So – [10:42] You're going to Portland. The energy is going to be amazing. El Chippo is going to be shooting out probably used T-shirts out of 15-year-old T-shirt candidates. [10:53] I can't wait for this weekend, but we'll see. What do the Spurs have in them without Wemby? They signed Luke Cornett over the summer, who is one of the best free agent signings of the summer. Big game for him, obviously, game three, game four. They're going to need a lot more from him.

[11:08] But, [11:10] As crazy as it sounds, like Portland, this could be a long series. And I don't think Portland's going to go away. This is a team that knows who they are, really good defensively. Kamar, I thought, did a great job down the stretch. And... [11:24] Little feistier of a series. I think San Antonio was minus 1,400. [11:30] heading into the series. So it's a 1-1 going back to Portland. We're definitely not going to have 1-2 for game three. We'll see. That is my number two panic team. So Houston, San Antonio. Number three is Detroit. They're playing tomorrow night. They got their ass kicked at home in game one, and they've lost 12, 11 straight playoff games. This would be the 12th if they lose game two. Orlando has a ton of confidence. [11:51] They're catching this Orlando team that just did a 180 that hit rock bottom, crawled out of it. We talked about it on Sunday night. [11:58] and [12:00] might not give a shit anymore. It might just feel like, fuck it. Maybe we're better than these guys. This is a Normandale and Hoosiers moment for J.B. Bickerstaff. [12:09] And the Pistons. [12:11] This is JB looking at these guys. Maybe they're right about us. Maybe we weren't a one seed. He's got to start challenging them a little bit. [12:19] I think this Detroit Orlando game Wednesday night, [12:23] a must watch. I think it's going to be violent. [12:27] I expect, like, I don't know if you're watching the hockey, but, [12:30] But Bruins Buffalo almost had two different bench-clawing bras. It brought me back to 1988 when I really loved the Bruins the most, the 70s and 80s.

[12:40] And we played Buffalo, and I think it was 600-plus penalty minutes in a six-game series. [12:45] and multiple bench-clear fights, guys just fighting every game, the same guys. [12:50] like Jay Miller. I think that we had Willie Platt. I think they had Clark Gillies. I forget. They had another fighter, but just every game, the same guys were fighting. Um, [13:01] I don't think Detroit or Orlando is going to be like that, but I think it's going to get feisty tomorrow. I think this is one of those Detroit's going to lay the smack down, try to give the physicality. I think Orlando likes when it gets physical. They like that kind of action. [13:14] And that's a must watch. But I would be really nervous if I'm Detroit because Orlando, you know, there's two kinds of upsets. There's the Philly kind that we'll talk about this second against Boston in game two. And then there's the, we actually belong on the court. We might be better than you guys upset. And I felt like Orlando – [13:30] in that one. Now, they're nine-point underdogs. [13:34] in game two, which I think is too high. There's a lot of data going for if the home team gets blown out into game one as a big favorite. And Zach talked about that on Sunday. But I think Orlando can play with these guys. So Detroit's my number three. The Nuggets are number four. First Nuggets lost yesterday in 33 days. I have multiple concerns coming out of the game. [13:53] One, Aaron Gordon, not healthy. [13:55] I thought he got banged up in different ways in game one and then game two just didn't look like himself. So you lose rim protection, you lose the crazy athleticism, you lose the reckless threes in the corner that go in, all that stuff. [14:10] I didn't think he seemed like the same guy. Not his fault. I just think he's banged up. I think he's been banged up all year. Second biggest thing...

[14:18] Jokic's threes, which we've seen come and go in the playoffs if you really put a beating on them, which Minnesota did. Minnesota had Randall beating on them. They had Gobert beating on them. They had Elbows, Nas Reeds beating on them. And they just tried to wear him down. [14:33] And it got to the point, it felt like they were leaving him open a little bit. And I think he was one for seven. A lot was made out of the Gobert one-on-one defense against Joker. I didn't think that's why they won. I thought they won because the physicality of all four quarters combined with the third thing I want to mention. McDaniels, you know, you could see what the game plan was in game two. It was like McDaniels is going to hound Jamal Murray 94 feet. And I don't know why more teams don't do this when you have a Jaden McDaniels, but [15:02] I thought Murray was just gassed in the fourth quarter because McDaniels was just... [15:07] Wearing him down and in his T-shirt. [15:09] which is, I think he wears the t-shirt instead inside the jersey. [15:13] which I support. Um, [15:17] I thought he wore him down. So you have McDaniels, 94 feet. You have Gobert with the one-on-one D. You have Ant with the rim protection. You have Randall and Nas Reed being super physical. And then you have DiVincenzo with some big ball shots. [15:31] And you have Bones Highland as just a random Dion Waiters. We might have to rename Dion Waiters on rewatchables. And then you have on offense, everyone attacking the rim. [15:39] 'cause they know if Gordon's a little compromised, Joker's not really a shot blocker they're going. So when I think about upsets, [15:47] Um, [15:48] I said this after game one to Zach, even though Minnesota didn't play that well, I felt like the physicality, they seemed very comfortable. And I thought it was a little concerning.

[15:57] After game one, they didn't play that well, but they still were in the vicinity of winning the game. Game two, super comfortable. [16:04] And it's a team that thinks they're better than Denver. So if I'm a Nuggets fan... [16:09] A, I'm more concerned than I was four days ago that I was getting out of this series. They were 3-1 to win the series. Now I'm concerned. [16:18] I'm also concerned what happens if I get out of this series. Because now I'm playing San Antonio. I have a lot of miles on me from round one. [16:25] And, and then I still have OKC waiting for me in round three and they're going to do all the same physical beat you up stuff that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, [16:33] Minnesota's doing. Now, this was the case. I thought Denver was going to make the finals. [16:38] The case against it was the road is too hard. [16:41] And, [16:42] the way this is playing out, that case might have been right. I might have been wrong. I thought Minnesota was alive, potential could put it together for four rounds, but Ant, who didn't even seem like he was 100% healthy all the time yesterday, combined with McDaniels coming back from injury, I just didn't think they were going to be able to put it together like that. But man, [17:00] They looked like a conference finalist last night. So either of these teams playing San Antonio... [17:09] is going to be an incredible series. And I thought last night, I thought that was like watching a game five of a conference finals level quality of basketball. I loved it. I'd be nervous if I was Denver. [17:21] I wouldn't be quite as nervous if I'm the Knicks, but I'm a little nervous because game two against Atlanta – [17:27] It picks some scabs for me.

[17:29] right there are we too brunson centric are we sure mike brown is a good coach [17:35] is McHale Bridges playing tonight. [17:37] Oh, he's played 32 minutes? I didn't realize it. Oh, he took the last shot of the game with five seconds left? I forgot he was on the team. [17:46] They had a bunch of that stuff going. The backup guards, McBride was bad. Shamit was bad. So they got nothing really from their bench other than Clarkson made a couple plays. [17:57] And, and, [17:58] The Towns piece of it, now, my Knicks fan friends were like, why didn't Towns get the ball more? Why would we be so Brunson-centric? [18:05] Kamika was doing a good job on town. So I think it was a combination of he was being really physical with them. They found something with that small ball lineup. And if I was the Knicks – [18:15] And I rooted for the Knicks. The thing that would make me the most nervous, other than Josh Hart was the best player on my team in game two. [18:22] I would be nervous that Alexander Walker and Jalen Johnson... [18:27] Alexander Walker didn't really play well in either game. [18:31] Jalen Johnson did not shoot well in the second game. [18:34] And it's one-to-one and they're going back where I think they're pretty good in Atlanta. [18:38] So I'd be nervous that Alexander Walker hasn't gotten going yet. And then the CJ McCollum piece... [18:43] He was getting to whatever spot he wanted. You have these two wings coming. [18:49] in Anobian Bridges that you've traded all this capital and gave big contracts to. And over and over again, he was just getting away from those guys and trying to repeatedly get Brunson on them.

[19:00] McCollum's like having, this is a moment for him, right? This is the afterthought in Portland. Dame's teammate put in a million trade rumors. He even got mad at me publicly a couple times. Kind of bounces around, ends up in Washington, becomes such an afterthought that Houston doesn't even trade for him. And now he's wearing it now. He's ready to be the foil in a Knicks series. So I would be... [19:24] I wouldn't be crazy nervous if I was the Knicks. What are the odds in this series? They are... [19:30] Yeah, minus 174 on Fandle. That seems about right. [19:34] I thought the Knicks were going to win in six. I still think that. [19:39] But the CJ piece was unexpected. We'll see if he can keep it going. And then the last one for our panic team, the Celtics. So I would have ranked on the bottom here. [19:49] First of all, in game twos, I don't know what happens to them. They're 5-5 in their last 10 playoff home game twos. [19:55] They lost to the Knicks last year, Miami and Cleveland in 24. The Miami game was one of the dumbest losses of all time. They lost to Miami in 23. Then they lost to Nate. Philly did exactly what I thought they were going to do. They shot a bunch of threes. [20:07] Edgecombe got hot, I think he was six for 10. He had a 30 and 10, was super comfortable. And then Maxey got going a little bit. The Celtics were playing this just insanely dumb drop coverage that I didn't understand for the life of me. And giving up, I think it was 91-89. Boston has the ball, about to take the lead. Tatum jacks up a bad three. And then Maxey, I think hit two straight threes on that stupid drop coverage.

[20:36] So the Celtics were 13 for 50. [20:40] from three. [20:42] And Sean Grandy, my friend, [20:44] who does the radio for the Celtics, said, regular season and playoffs, that's the 12th time in the last 161 games [20:51] The Celtics have failed to shoot better than 26% from three, and they've lost all 12, including game one and game two against the Knicks, and then this game last night. So the question is, total aberration, or are they starting to look a little like Knicks-Serious Celtics last year? I will say, the two things that scare me a tiny bit, [21:12] Derek White has... [21:14] Really been bad from three since January 1st. [21:17] He's under 31% from three now. He's two for 10 tonight. And the next thing, the Sixers seemed... [21:25] Totally fine with him shooting from three. [21:27] Whereas I think in November and December would not have been as fine. [21:32] It got to the point I was wondering if they might take him out and put Shireman in, which was the second thing I didn't understand. Shireman only played 11 minutes. He's been a super sub. [21:41] for the last couple months, indispensable. [21:44] That led to the third thing I didn't understand. The move seemed to me, go small with Tatum at the five, because you could still get the rebounding from him. Tatum, Brown, Shireman. [21:54] Pritchard and White or take White out and put Hazard in, um, [21:59] I just, I didn't really understand the lineups. I voted for Joe for coach of the year. I did not think he had a good game today. [22:05] Um, and the Vucevic thing, I just don't get, I know offensively he had decent stats, but I think he really hurts them defensively. And I thought the Sixers took advantage of him. I don't think he's fast enough to jump out on three point shooters. Um, he's not really a rim protector. And if I'm playing the Sixers and there's no Embiid and I'm playing Bona and Drummond, like I'm fine going small against them. Let's go small again. What are they going to do? Post up one of those guys.

[22:35] It did worry me a little that they looked like game one, game two, 2025. [22:41] Knicks. I did get some flashbacks, some PTSD. My daughter and my dad were there. And my daughter was furious after the game. I was very proud, but she was excited that they showed them on the Jumbotron. And my dad wasn't looking and she was hitting him to look. And multiple people texted me about this, that it was like watching a little sitcom with my dad and my daughter. So congrats to them. Wish I had been there. [23:04] I'm not nervous about this Celtics series yet. [23:07] Right now, the odds are Celtics minus 510. [23:10] So FanDuel is not nervous either. The Portland odds, Portland is plus 410 to win the series now. San Antonio is minus 550. [23:20] Um, [23:21] The two series seem like a wrap, Phoenix OKC. [23:25] and Toronto, Cleveland. And it's unclear. Toronto should have just passed on the playoff invitation. Like when you get invited to a wedding and you send your regrets and you send a gift. I kind of wish Toronto had done that with the playoffs. [23:37] All right, that's the, that's, that's the panic, the NBA panic room heading into tomorrow night. Can't wait to watch Orlando and Detroit again. I'm sorry to everybody at the ringer that I made you stay up tonight. We're going to take a break. We're going to go backwards in time. I'm going to talk to McShay and Mensch, a big, long convo about the NFL draft. And I'm going to look a lot more awake in one second after this break. [24:00] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel.com. [24:03] The NBA playoffs are here. Everything's on the line. Every possession matters. Every bucket swings the game. And tonight is your shot.

[24:10] Boost. [24:11] You are bad. [24:12] That's right. [24:13] All customers get a profit boost tonight. So when the moment hits... [24:17] your wing gets bigger because that's how profit boosts work. Lock in your bets, boost your odds, make the playoffs pay off with FanDuel official sports betting partner of the NBA. Head to FanDuel.com slash BS to get started. FanDuel, play your game. [24:31] 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fando.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call [redacted phone] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. [24:44] All right, listen up. Ralph's, King Soopers, Harris Teeter, Food for Less, Kroger, many more. [24:51] Now on Uber Eats. [24:53] And you get 40% off your order of $30 or more. Maybe you're trying a new recipe and need some last minute [25:00] ingredients. That's a possibility. Maybe the kids made a mess. You're lower on cleaning supplies than you thought. Whatever you need. [25:07] You can get it delivered to you. [25:09] In as little as 25 minutes. So order now at Uber Eats. Get 40% off your order of $30 or more. [25:15] with code KROGER2026.com. [25:19] Plus Uber One members get zero dollar delivery fees. I love Uber One. I'm an Uber One member. [25:24] Orders of $30 or more save up to $25 ends April 30th, 2026. See app for details. [25:34] All right, McShay and Menther here. They are here all week doing... [25:39] The Todd McShay Show, which is behind us. I like that. You like that little fancy thingy? Yeah. So we're using your set. I love it. Last time I talked to you, I wasn't that excited about the draft, and then you kind of- 45 minutes later, I had you- You fluffed me a little bit. Yeah, you got me a little excited about it. He's a great fluffer. Barely excited by the end. Now I'm way more excited.

[25:59] There's never a bad draft, man. That's the thing. For entertainment value, there's never a bad draft. There's bad drafts where there's no players. Right. Yeah. But it's like Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is always going to be good because at some point there's going to be food to eat. And it always gets hectic. There's always family drama before Thanksgiving. It's the same thing here. And I got lied to, I think, about the Jets pick. [26:24] And that's okay. I'm here for it. Oh, you got lied to? I think so. [26:27] I did see you did a little switch. Oh, Val Reuss. Yeah. Yeah. [26:32] And by the way, the draft's not here. We'll see what happens. But I get the strong sense that [26:37] The jet's worth getting that out there. I always get nervous about, because I was the only one saying Arbel Reese, and then a couple other people a little bit. But I always get nervous when everyone all of a sudden on a Monday after a weekend are saying the same thing. So the Jeremiah Love thing, I worry about that at number three. But it looks like Bailey. [26:59] They're doing a good job of being really quiet about it, even though there's really no reason to be quiet outside of. [27:07] Hey, everyone thinks we're taking Bailey. But who are they trying to fake out? [27:10] Listen. [27:11] David Bailey I actually had to have this internal conversation with myself [27:17] David Bailey's been kind of what everyone in league circles has been. [27:21] kind of assumed, right, for a while. [27:23] Let's throw out there we might take Arbel Reese and see if someone's more interested in Reese. [27:29] Because there's people talking about Arizona. We're going to move on. Whichever pass rusher doesn't go to, the pick is open at Arizona at number three. Why not us get the phone calls? I have a feeling that that's what was going on. The only thing I don't like about this theory is it's the Jets. That involves foresight, a plan.

[27:49] Understanding of what's happening. Like chess moves moving around. Yeah. And if it's true, what I'm kind of surmising, then I think – [27:59] Daryl Mooji is doing a pretty good job of managing this thing. [28:04] If there are two guys who play the same position, basically, [28:07] And people are arguing about which one's better. [28:10] I always parachute in the draft every year, basically knowing nothing and trying to learn on the right. [28:15] Why wouldn't you take the guy who's two years younger? [28:18] Is that just too obvious? It's actually not. You would be, I don't think you'd be surprised, but it's surprising how much. Because Reese is two years younger. Emphasis is put into the age for a defensive prospect specifically. [28:33] If it was me, I would take the younger guy. It's like getting a car from 2024 versus 26 or something. But it's a five-year lease. It's a five-year lease. You're not going to keep it for the life of the car. You know what I mean? [28:46] So if you like the car better and you get a better lease, then take the lease. But nobody can agree which one of these guys are better. Why wouldn't I just take the younger guy? I would take Arbel Reese, but I've got to have a defensive coach. If I'm the general manager, I've got to have a defensive coach that can lay out what exactly is the plan to show me how it's going to work. Yeah. Because this guy's more talented. [29:07] The talent isn't quite developed. He's a one-year starter at Ohio State. So that means higher talent, higher bus potential. [29:15] Yes. Okay. Yeah. Someone brought this up on X. I want to, I actually meant to run this by you before we even got on here, but we're talking about the jets again.

[29:23] So if you have a plan for this kid, that's great. Is Aaron Glenn going to be their head coach next year? Right. Or in October? Or in October. Exactly. So then the plan's out the window. And if you're Mougie, are you thinking to yourself, I don't know who's going to be their head coach next year. I'm going to take the guy who's been playing Edge his whole life. The information I got 10 days ago, I think it's 10 days now, it was the Sunday before this past Sunday was... [29:47] what's your football sense if you want the sure thing and the Daryl Muji is, is a, a human risk aversion. I compared it yesterday. Along came Polly. Then, then like just a human risk aversion corporation, like walking down the street, like everything's about risk. And apparently that's, that's kind of his DNA and his makeup. Um, [30:09] I would argue the better player who the fallback is, I'm getting Devin Lloyd. [30:14] it [30:15] That to me is less risk than drafting David Bailey and maybe he's just a DPR, designated pass rusher. [30:23] He's not very good versus the run. It's true. But this guy we know can rush the quarterbacks. [30:31] better than anyone in this draft. And yes, it's with speed, and yes, he's got to kind of get stronger and all that, but let's go with the guy that's proven as a pass rusher because that's the most important thing you can do in this league outside of being a quarterback. [30:43] FanDuel has Reese [30:45] Minus 130, Bailey plus 115 on Tuesday afternoon as we record. Did that flip from yesterday? Yeah. [30:52] This morning I looked and it was like, it was still plus 160.

[30:58] And then I looked... [31:00] four hours ago and it was minus 110. So it is shifting rapidly. Yeah. Betting on the draft is like betting on roulette. [31:07] While doing cocaine. [31:10] The odds are just, oh, oh! It's just going crazy at all times. I'd never do draft bets. The only one that seems like it hits every year is the more offensive lineman than we thought. Seems like every year, it's like, no, it's going to be seven. No, actually, it's ten. Because we get in the draft and everybody's like, oh, fuck, we need a right tackle. I would bet it's at eight and a half. I haven't looked, but I would bet it's at eight and a half. [31:34] I would take that. [31:36] There's going to be a second guard that sneaks in. Right. I would take nine. Seven and a half. [31:42] See, that seems like you fucking bang that one, right? Pound it right now. It must be at least nine. Take it right now. [31:48] I laugh whenever I see. There's going to be at least eight. There's seven tackles and one guard. I think nine, but yeah, you're right. It's going to be eight. I think the Patriots could take somebody. Ian Acho is still sitting there at 31? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. [31:59] Um, I, you put that in right now. No, I'll do it. I'll do it after. [32:03] I have a bunch of questions. [32:05] Tied to the drafts. [32:06] But this is my favorite one. [32:09] What do the Giants do at number five? Because they also have number 10. [32:12] Yeah. It's the first four picks. Yeah. Okay. [32:15] Mendoza? [32:17] Reese [32:19] to the Jets. Arizona says fuck it and takes love. And then Salah and Tennessee go fuck it and they take Stiles. [32:27] So it goes, Mendoza, Reese loves styles. Now the Giants are on the clock. What happens? Bailey.

[32:33] You think they would take Bailey anyway? With Bailey. I was told by somebody that... Because even if you flip-flop and it's Bailey... [32:40] It's Bailey at two and it's Reese at five, sitting at five, either way. [32:44] Um, [32:46] I was told, but I don't believe it, that they would take the edge rusher, best available, and Kayvon Thibodeau would be traded. That was a little nugget in Shepter's article. [32:57] He had all these trade guys. These are guys that could be traded. And all of a sudden, you see Kayvon Thibodeau. And I was like, I haven't heard that name. Yeah. But that was last year's trade that was going to happen. Remember? Yeah. Yeah. Well, they'll drop that bull. So when all of a sudden, it was in there. I was like, that jumps out to me. So if they could get rid of one of them. The Giants are fascinating, right? Because the Giants are sitting there at five. And now they've got pick 10. [33:17] Which was an awesome trade. I didn't talk about that trade on the podcast. I was staggered by that trade. Trading a defensive tackle, I know he's good. In his late 20s, he's expensive. And now I just get to reset with the 10th pick in a draft that basically has 12 good guys and then drops off. That trade's a miracle. I thought the Giants would have had to throw in at least a third. [33:41] to even the seesaw. There's something about the Ravens. The Ravens, like Ozzie Newsome and down to Eric Dacosta now, it seems like they... [33:48] They sit back, they're patient, they exploit other teams. And now Harbaugh comes from the Ravens, exploiting other teams for being overly eager in a moment. [33:57] Who's stopping the run for the Giants? I mean, they were given five yards of carry last year. That might be the 10th pick. There's no defensive tackles there. You don't like Fox just reaching or maybe trading back five spots. But they picked 35 in the second round. Yeah, they'll get a guy there. They'll get a good guy there. They'll get a guy there. I thought for the Bengals that – I interrupted you. The Bengals, that trade was insane.

[34:20] You're paying like $110 million a year to a quarterback and two receivers. [34:24] You've holes all over the place. And I give her $28 million. Your defense is terrible. And it's like, well, we're going to get this guy. We're going to bring him in. He's the best defensive tackle in the league. Cool. Now he's going to be double teamed the whole time. You have nobody else in your defense. Like, as an AFC fan of the Patriots, I was like, great trade, guys. You did it. [34:41] You're going to be a fucking best. But the Giants sit there at five, right? [34:46] And a week ago, we would have said, [34:48] Caleb Downs is one of the players they'd like to say from Ohio State Jordan Tyson is one of the players they don't they don't conceal. [34:55] their interest in players. Joe Shane goes, Shane and Harbaugh were already at the Arizona State Pro Day where Jordan Tyson didn't work out. Yeah. And then Shane went back out for the Jordan Tyson workout, which was just like 30 something routes and catching the ball. Yeah, that was a don't get hurt workout. Yeah. The injury-pronged guy working out all the time. Just run a straight line and turn it around. But everyone loved it. It was a great workout. Yeah. And then has, I think, dinner with Tyson. So [35:24] We know there's interest there. [35:26] But I don't know, a week, 10 days ago, we would have said, you better take downs at five and you can get Tyson at 10. I honestly think with, with, [35:35] Sitting here. [35:36] Seven would be a possibility, although I think Dan Quinn is going defense there. He's pushing with Adam Peters to go defense, and it could be Sonny Stiles. If not Stiles, Caleb Downs at seven. But eight is New Orleans. [35:48] And that could be a spot where Jordan Tyson goes.

[35:53] Sounds like a disaster. Nine Kansas City. Jordan Tyson-Normans. That just sounds awful. Why? What do you mean? But not in their eyes, but yes. Don't they have like a top three worst medicine training recovery situation, them and the Pelicans? I mean, Chris Olave, that's what's worked for him, right? Yeah. That makes me nervous. So regardless, my point is I don't know that Tyson gets there. [36:18] likely to get there, but may not get there either. So, and then you hear about- But there's no scenario where they can end up with downs and styles, the Giants? [36:27] They don't want styles, apparently. Because they signed Edmonds. [36:30] He signed Edmunds. Yeah. [36:31] Honestly, that deal's not huge, though. It's not huge. [36:35] Um, [36:37] I mean, that's the Mac Daddy move. Because I was looking at the Giants' odds. First of all, seven and a half wins over under for them. All the signs for them are they're going to be this year's Patriots, right? If Darts healthy. Yeah. [36:49] Fourth place schedule, new coach. They're checking all the boxes. Seven and a half wins seems too low. [36:55] plus 280 for the playoffs, plus 550 for the division. That seems too high. [37:00] They got two blue chip, blue chip, blue chip, five and 10 guys. [37:04] and then hit the second round pick, you're good right away. Yeah. Because they already had a bunch of good players, and they underachieved last year. How many times do they have the lead in the second half of a game? What if Jeremiah Love is still sitting there? Yeah. [37:18] You love this. [37:19] You want to give love to everyone, but yeah, I get it. [37:22] Scadaboo is not going to stay healthy. So they got love and downs.

[37:26] and you got the best running back [37:29] in the draft by far. [37:30] And then you have a safety. And I want to talk about downs in a second. [37:34] You just get the two best guys in the position who four years from now could be like all pros. Yeah. Or three years from now, whatever. [37:42] But the Downs thing, I was just on tailgate. I stopped by there for a second. [37:47] We do this with the draft every year. I've talked to you about it before. [37:50] where [37:51] Everyone knows Downs is going to be awesome. [37:55] He's going to go like 10th. [37:56] And then three years from now, we're going to do the redraft. And it's like, number two, Caleb Downs. Yeah. Kyle Hamilton. Ed Reed crossed with Kyle Hamilton. He's just amazing. And wow, what a great pick. And it's like, but we knew that before this draft that he was going to be a great pick. So how do you go 10th? [38:12] It's the position value thing. And then you add to position value. He didn't run. We know he's not like his miles per hour is equated to 4.5 type 40. Not as long as so. Yeah. So you got all those things working against you. But why not? He's not going to fall. Same thing for Hamilton, right? It's like, what is he? Where is he? What position is he? Yeah. Is he a hybrid? Well, [38:35] It turned out great. Yeah, really great. [38:38] so I think it could go as high as seven, maybe five, but, but it was, I don't know. The giants are fascinating. And also there's, [38:49] You don't pay Harbaugh, what, $100 million to be the guy without letting him be the guy. And that's the indication I get. But there seems to be all... That makes me nervous too. Yeah.

[39:00] He was... [39:01] On pace to getting fired the first Lamar Jackson year. Yep. And then Lamar Jackson saved his ass. Yeah. [39:07] last couple of years weren't awesome. [39:10] And then it's like, here are the car keys. Make all the decisions for us. Do you see what Zay Flowers said? What? [39:16] The practices, that's why we had so many injuries. The practices were too hard. He didn't know how to manage our workload. He doesn't do well with the... [39:23] current players. He just doesn't know how to pull back a little bit. That would be interesting. [39:28] And he's got a bunch of all gas, no brakes guys in Scadaboo and Dart. You kind of want those guys to maybe pull back a little bit. And it's not like the Giants have been staying real healthy. It's a good point. Yeah. No, I mean – [39:43] I just am fascinated which way they go because the first pick there is, [39:47] You get the sense this is Joe Shane's last is the GM, but I don't know, you know? Yeah. He had a tremendous management of a draft last year, but the last time they had two top 10 picks, it was like... [39:58] Thibodeau and another Evan Neal, maybe I think it was Evan Neal. [40:02] And so are we going to repeat history with that? And the offensive tackle, are you waiting to 10 to get an offensive tackle? Yeah, no offensive tackles were off the board in that scenario, right? Well, that's the other thing. We lived through this with the draft every year where it's like, yeah, I don't think they'll go to 9 or 10, and then they go 6. And the teams get in there, and they just panic. They can't figure out who to pick, and they just go with size. What's the highest downs could go that you would be – [40:28] either of you, that you would be [40:30] actually kind of shocked by. Like Arizona is out of the question.

[40:34] top four would be anywhere in the top four so tennessee but he's not going there so [40:40] Yeah, it wouldn't shock me if he went fifth, but I wouldn't do it. [40:43] And I just heard you guys say all those things about it, but give me... [40:47] Top 8 offensive tackle in the league Versus the best safety That's going to win games I was doing all the research for running backs [40:55] Because this ties into the love conversation. [40:57] And it feels like top five is just too high for certain positions, even though we know when we do the draft. But six to 10 is not too high. [41:05] So if you go through all the running backs, basically the last 20 years, [41:08] The two, two, two, and three were Ronnie Brown, Bush, Reggie Bush, Barkley, and Trent Richardson. [41:16] So I'm going to say those first four [41:19] Three of them, no way that team does it again. Yep. No. [41:22] Barkley's still defensible. Yes. [41:26] 100% he was incredible right and it was who was the next pick it was a quarterback was like Trubisky or somebody [41:34] I don't remember. It was a quarterback. Trubisky was 13th overall. No, Trubisky was third, remember? Oh, no, he was third. It was some sort of QB. But anyway, so 2-2-2-3. We went one for four, even if you count Barkley as a hit. [41:50] He's a hit. [41:51] And you go count Reggie Bush, right? [41:54] I don't. I don't either. He won the Super Bowl. But Pierre Thomas was the better running back in the Super Bowl in that year. So 4-4-6... [42:02] Leonard Fournette, Darren McFadden, and Jenty last year. That would, by the way, that was right. I don't think any of those teams do that again.

[42:10] Even Jente, who I thought had some moments, but I just don't think the Raiders would have done that if they could redo that. I think they would take alignment. Yeah, yeah. But now we go to 7-8. [42:21] I think he's going to have a good year this year. But, yes, I agree with the premise. Now you're getting into the Bichon. Peterson 7, McCaffrey 8, Bichon 8. Yeah. Yep. [42:29] Pretty good value. And then CJ Spower, nine. Zeke Elliott, 10. Gurley, 10. [42:35] So this is a fucking random sample size. But what I learned from that is maybe wait until 6 to 10. [42:41] to take love because history says you go earlier, that's a mistake. Yeah, and it probably indicates teams that are a little bit better than the [42:50] trash at the time, you know? Right. You know, teams picking, it's like the chiefs are picking at nine, you know? Um, [42:57] Right, you're going to a better situation. Peterson was in a good situation pretty immediately in Minnesota. Right. Whereas, like, Gentty goes to the Raiders, and it's not a good situation. Yeah, typically four doesn't go to the Super Bowl. Pick four doesn't go to the Super Bowl. That's not a normal occurrence like we saw with the Patriots last year. So, I... [43:16] It's all about where they wind up landing. All positions are dependent upon to a certain degree. Quarterback, absolutely. But running back, I would argue, may be the most dependent upon. [43:26] what you have in front of you and how you can, how you can block it up. And the Raiders weren't ready. And all those teams you mentioned weren't ready for that guy. So did you guys like the Bengals trade for the Bengals or no? [43:37] The Bengals trade for Lawrence? Yeah. No.

[43:40] Okay. [43:41] Yeah, I wanted to make sure. [43:42] Here's the thing. I don't like it in a lot of drafts. I don't hate it as much in this draft. [43:47] I really don't because he's by far the best defensive tackle in this class if he was to be there. Who are you getting at 10 that's better than Dexter Lawrence? So you'd rather have four years of Lawrence... [43:56] versus the 10th pick in this draft. Yes. But you're paying more. I know. That's the issue. That's a blind spot. That's a weakness for me. The cap guy figured that out for me. But I hear you. You're right. You've got to factor it in. Who's the cap guy there? I know. Well, what's the part of it that they had the cap space to grab the extra money to fit in and [44:16] So basically, instead of paying the 10th pick this, they could pay the 10th pick this. Yes. Yes. I just would never do it. I would rather trade. First of all, the Bengals needed players. I'd rather trade backwards and try to pick up more stuff. Yeah, true. The problem is... [44:31] urgency that is created by situations. And that's why I started this with the Ravens. The Ravens have always been good at this, this thing. And, [44:40] Some organizations are really good at there's going to be an opportunity by an organization that is going to be presented to us because they're desperate. [44:49] And if you've got Joe Burrow and the injuries and the timeline and now the contracts with the wide receivers, you are desperate. [44:56] to win that. [44:57] And, [44:58] And I think this is a desperate move. [45:00] And honestly, it almost never pays off. If you go look at the history, these desperate moves almost never pay off. [45:07] I wonder if somebody could run a football team and just stick to like –

[45:11] Like somebody hires me as the GM and I'm just like, I only have seven principles, guys. [45:16] I'm never paying two receivers a lot of money. I'm good in the draft. I'm just taking alignment on one side of the ball, the other. That's all I'm doing. [45:24] Yeah. I'm going to try to get us a quarterback. Like just bear. I'm always going to trade back if I can't decide what to do. And these are my seven tenants and I'll leave everything else to my scouting department. Yeah. I'm just saying this, doing this. They can. No one can stick to it, though. They always fall in love with a player. Yeah. You know, if I ever got a GM job, if I ever gone that route and taken some opportunities, I like. [45:44] I've always said there's a couple people in my life I would hire. [45:48] full time the common sense guys the common sense guys who are paying like pete woodfork works for major league baseball yeah pain in my ass my whole life since we're like 10 years old always does the right thing sticks by the you know and like so you're the jets gm and you call pete and you're like reese or bailey what would you do and he's like what the fuck no i'm hiring him and he's oh you're hiring and he and i'm gonna give him like four or five things that he's allowed to overrule me on because my emotion or or the situation or no way you would never give anyone [46:18] I'm telling you, there are certain things that are blind spots for all of us, including general managers in the NFL. And there are certain principles. If you just stick to them, it's like playing blackjack over time. But who has the patience to play? So you wouldn't let him overrule you on three things? You wouldn't hire him? I think I'm off the list after the Dexter Lawrence thing. There are a couple things. I think I just got cut. He's a good bot. We bounce off of one another well. But I don't think there's anything hard. Is that what we're calling it? Bouncing off one another?

[46:48] This is really cute, guys. We're going to get this all week? Yeah, exactly. Check us out on Netflix, live for the first and second night of the NFL draft. We'll be bouncing off one another. It is funny. Jalen Rose and I, when we were doing the Countdown Show in 2013, we did this. [47:04] this gimmick called the interview. Yep. And we, we went to the lottery combine or wherever, and we interviewed every person. We spent 15 minutes with each one in like a, [47:14] We have cameras. Just rapid fire. Get a feel. The players. For each person. Yeah. [47:19] And I can totally see how the people can get enamored with certain players. Now, ironically, the ones we got enamored with actually turned out to be good. Like, we love CJ McCollum. Yeah. We're like, this guy's great. Like, he seems really mature. And then his tape, and we're like, I would bet on this guy. Yeah. But the reality is you're spending 15 to 20 minutes with somebody, and you're overrated in the reaction. But it's hard not to. It's human nature. Right. Yeah. [47:45] And it's amazing what goes into this. And, [47:47] Mm-hmm. [47:48] Think about how many people and how many flights and how many car rides and how many visits and how many people in the cafeteria to the training room to all that. You have these NFL scouts and the salary money and everything that goes into this process, right? And you're handed as a general manager this basically a portfolio, if you will, of everything you need to know in this human being. [48:09] Yeah. [48:10] And then the analytics department comes in and tells you all the things you can and can't do and all that. And then you've got the whether it's AIQ or different intellectual testing. And then you have the psychologist and all that. It's amazing to me that we get to this point in the process in like the last month.

[48:25] And the private jet gets, you know, right. And four or five of the people who are the most influential people go and they have dinner with. [48:33] They they meet with family agent. They go and they throw some passes out in the side field or they put them through a test. They get them on the board. [48:44] And they wind up. [48:47] Not necessarily disregarding, but that kind of trumps it. Now, all that information is used to kind of shrink the pool, right? [48:55] So it's down to four or five. They're just grabbing tidbits every place they can. But that 24-hour interaction, maybe over two, whether it's coming to our facility, we go out to you and your college town. [49:08] like, I don't know, 10 to 20 hours worth of interaction [49:12] typically winds up trumping a lot of other stuff. Would you trust what the coach said? Because I wouldn't really trust it that much unless the coach was so psychotic about how much he loved the guy. It has to be earned. It has to be something that he's told you, [49:25] in the past about a player. He has a track record. Right. I'm telling you that you cannot do it right out of the game. Tell him about Jamarcus Russell and all the SID at LSU telling about [49:35] Are you talking about your own coach or the coach from the school? Oh, the coach from the school. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. Unless it's negative or like you said, a track record. Right. The interesting one is your own coach. Oh, yeah, yeah. That dynamic. But I wouldn't trust my own coach that much at all. Well, you've got to make sure it fits the scheme or else you're giving them. I know. But NFL coaches last three to four years. Barring like a miracle. I would be really interested in the parent interactions. Yeah.

[50:02] Because I do think you could learn a little something. My favorite story of all this stuff was... [50:07] This might be apocryphal. [50:10] But it was when the Celtics had the Markel Fultz, Jason Tatum, when they had the number one pick. Yeah. And they brought Markel Fultz to Boston to meet him for the weekend. [50:18] n. [50:19] He was really shy. [50:21] But apparently he asked, [50:24] if Boston had Chick-fil-A. [50:27] Like if they had Chick-fil-A franchises in Boston. And they're like, no, it's not. We don't have it in Boston. And he was like, crestfallen? [50:35] And they were like, uh-oh. It set out some sort of red flag that he was like, [50:41] You don't have Chick-fil-A? That's amazing. I have no idea if the story's true, but it's so good. I almost... [50:45] I can't think it'd be made up, but that's the kind of thing that I'm like, oh shit, this guy really likes Chick-fil-A. I didn't get Chick-fil-A in Philly then either. That's amazing. On the other hand, I love Chick-fil-A, so I can see from his side too. Yeah, I see from both sides. Yeah, but that was his big Boston question, so they're like, huh. [50:59] you're judging us now are you going to fit here that's great [51:05] All right, so Giants at 5 and 10 is the most fun team in this draft. Arizona is kind of the most pathetic team. [51:11] They're just wearing a cocktail dress at the bar like, anybody want three? [51:16] Anyone? You guys want to have a drink? Three, three down? Seriously, anyone. Yeah. And I don't know if you can create your own analogy to it, but also – [51:28] I'm going to stay positive. [51:30] There's also an element with the ownership where you're out at the bar by yourself, but you're still being controlled by who's making that decision. And I'm...

[51:39] depends on who you listen to now there. [51:42] There's been a lot, just talking to people in the league, there's been... [51:45] talk of maybe ownership wants Jeremiah love at three and, and, [51:50] That's a whole other factor, man. These owners that come in like this, the guy I want. [51:55] Arizona needs so many things, I don't even know what they need. If I was doing the team needs, I'd be like, ah, players. Have you looked at the Dolphins roster? Well, that's the saddest situation. It is. It's beyond. I mean, at least they have a lot of picks, so it's interesting, but I mean, it's... [52:09] bad. I mean, bad. Well, it's weird when you trade Jalen Waddell for 30. [52:15] and then you see all the receivers are going to be available at 30, and their best case scenario is to be maybe as good as Jalen Waddle. Right. Maybe. A notch below. Yeah. Yeah. They need so much. I don't know that I've ever been this late in the process, studying rosters and really diving in and – [52:30] felt more helpless about [52:33] about a roster. [52:34] I actually believe in Miami. I believe in John Eric Sullivan. [52:39] I believe in Jeff Halfley. I think they're the right people to stabilize this thing, but it's going to take more than a minute to get this thing turned around. They've got [52:49] I think that would be fun to just you have no pressure because you need so many things. It's like, all right, this is like blank slate time. And we hear BPA best player available all the time. Like they literally can just sit there like legs up. Yeah. Where's our board? OK, there it is. Yeah. Call it in. Who's number three? Yeah. Take them.

[53:10] Whereas I think the Chiefs have an incredible amount of pressure. I would say the Giants have the most pressure because you've got to nail these picks. But then Chiefs at nine... [53:19] And they're 42. [53:21] But they had this Mahomes window that I watched it, and you watched it with Brady. Yeah. You watched it as well. Yeah. Where the draft just ebbed and flowed the Brady arc. And there were years... [53:32] Clustered drafts where they just missed drafts. Doesn't it feel like it cost them Super Bowls? They're going into that era of they're going to be very competitive for seven or eight years, but they're not going to win a Super Bowl. That's what it feels like to me. It comes down to the drafts. The Holmes will keep them in it, but now it's the roster turnover. The early Patriots dynasty was a totally different roster than the later Patriots dynasty. Kelsey moving on. Chris Jones is still playing an unbelievable level, but he's getting older. I feel like they've been in that for two years. They just felt that last year. [54:02] four to be honest with you and i think mahomes but you know what i mean i felt i i honestly the years that the last year they went to the super bowl and lost i think getting overpowered by philly yes i think about the comp all the time the one thing that's really interesting is andy reed's not as young as belichick was when they went to the first and he was terrible last year i thought they were really poorly coached last year and everyone's afraid to criticize andy reed but they were badly self-assessed that yeah and and you know in so many ways like he he's reinvigorated

[54:32] I don't know he's [54:33] three, four years left. Also, they really, and Belichick did this too, and we've seen teams do this, like really explored the [54:41] capacity of how many iffy guys can we bring in guys with baggage when yeah [54:48] Belichick, sometimes these guys can have so much success and these teams can have so much success. They're like, oh, it's fine. It's one misdemeanor. It's like, no, no, he's mostly on time. And I remember who was the – Josh Gordon was a class. Josh Gordon. But Belichick just went in that mode. Like, it'll be fine. We'll bring him in. We'll figure it out. The Chiefs had a lot of those, and I think they were probably at capacity. Yep. [55:10] I think they were. What do you think they need at nine? Because the easy one would be like, take the best corner. It's right. Yeah. I don't think it's going to be a corner. I think they're going to get a corner. They pick, they pick it nine and 30, right? Yeah. 29. [55:22] 29. Yeah. Miami's at 30 and then Patriots 31 and obviously Seattle. Um, [55:30] The interesting element is that in this is I think they want they if they were to get aggressive, which I would I would not do, but I would understand it would be to move up for a pass rusher like. [55:41] So the Reese Bailey leftover guy. [55:44] Can we get up there and grab them? Conversations have been made that doesn't – a lot of conversations have been made, things we never even knew about, you know, and you find out after the fact. It doesn't mean a trade's going to happen. I don't – moving up from 9 to 3 costs a lot, and I don't think they're in the – Would you trade 9 and 40 for 3 in this draft? Because I would rather just stay at 9 than take 40, right? You're going to get a pretty good player at 40. Yeah. So you can get a Reuben Bain. You can get a Reuben Bain. So there's that edge rusher.

[56:14] receiver they can count on, right? So there's that element of it. [56:18] Then there's this Andy Reid. My understanding is Andy Reid is like, we've got to get another offensive lineman. [56:25] And I don't know where you get that. Which you could take at nine. Yeah. But you can't take it at 29. You can't count on that being there at 29. [56:32] Now, maybe maybe move up from twenty nine to twenty four and it costs a whole lot less or something like that. So I wonder if they're going to do that with tight end. [56:41] Sadiq? At nine? No, at... [56:44] Moving up to like the low teens or high 20s if they feel like... [56:51] to have a chance to swoop in and get him. If they love him, they could. Brett Veach is not afraid to pull the trigger. Yeah. But managing the element of we need an edge rusher, we need a wide receiver, we need a replacement for Kelsey, [57:06] They need a tackle. Yeah. And we need a tackle. And Andy really wants us to get a tackle. Yeah. And there's only seven of them. And that might not get to 29. [57:15] So we need those three things. We're not in the business of giving away picks to go move up. Also tough when you already use draft capital to draft the tackle, but now you've decided that's not the tackle. Right. [57:25] That's where the Patriots got in that spot a couple times. I don't know if they decided that, but he's missed 19 games in the last two years. I just don't know how you're going into this. [57:35] And the right tackle, Jalen Morris, started, I think, five or six games at most in a season. I would have – I would have – She's fans murdered him. I would have – They were pissed on X about – you can't use that pick on a guy who's not going to be a starter. I was like, what are you talking – like, this guy's probably going to start. I want you to think about how much money these organizations spend, right? Right.

[57:53] Simmons is so talented. [57:55] as a left tackle. I would... [57:58] I'm not going to make any incident. I would have whatever care team that was necessary. [58:04] Whatever that would be, okay? [58:06] to be like round the clock let's get let's make sure this guy has everything he needs because he is the personal protector of the most of the number one ricky williams of texas do you remember that ss story that came out where he was like dropping banana peels behind him and someone pick him up and throw him out for him it's just because that guy williams like i always think about that because there's no salary cap on support yeah right [58:28] that guy's your answer. Coaches and support. Yeah. Two things you could just spend whatever you want. Right. So I would get that guy right. [58:36] I think it might be over for them. [58:39] Ha ha ha. [58:41] At least for this window of it. Is that you just being hopeful as a Patriots fan? I said two years ago. Mahomes coming off [58:49] Now, pretty devastating injury. The only reason I mention this is they have the seventh best odds to win the Super Bowl right now, and that seems crazy to me. [58:58] Think about all the things that would have to go right for them to be a Super Bowl team. That's because there's a lot of people who would put money on it because it's the Chiefs. Yeah, I get it. But it's instructive because that's their perception is they're going to flip the switch and be fine this year. And I feel the opposite. I don't think. I'd be really surprised. I mean, they're going to have an easier schedule. The unknown, obviously, is how when Mahomes comes back. Yeah, what's he going to be like? Brady wasn't, when he came back in 09...

[59:26] The offense was good, but I really felt like it took him an extra year to be. Yeah, there was a famous Belichick clip of follow through, man. Yeah, yeah. Because you get all these guys going around your legs, and I don't know. I just felt like it took a while for him not to think about that. It's in your brain. When you spend the entire offseason recovering and rehabbing, and you're worrying about one thing, really. Truly, that's the one thing. And so you get out there, and you're protecting that one thing. So it takes a minute to get over it. [59:56] which is garbage every year. [59:58] And the AFC West with Knicks being hurt. I just never agreed with that. I know. I hear you. But if you're going off the argument, the Chargers, I think, are big. I think the Chargers are coming, man. I think they are coming on, and you're going to have a tough time in that division. That's the team. I think they're the one I'm the most afraid of in the AFC is the Chargers. I agree. Because I just felt like last year they probably would have... [1:00:18] But why can't right in there? Why do we talk about San Francisco's injuries? I swear to you, I've been I've been doing this for 26 years. I swear to you, I've been talking about the Chargers injuries for a good 18 of those years. [1:00:29] They don't have an electromagnetic button next to them. [1:00:35] It's in their head now. But every year it seems like they'll get those guys back from injury and it'll be just fine. I hope so. It would be great to see. But they're frightening if they stay healthy. [1:00:49] Right. Yes. Yes. [1:00:51] Yeah, they... What are their ads? [1:00:54] Yeah, so they have the fifth best odds. That makes sense to me. 15 to 1. Yes. Better, slightly better odds than the Pats.

[1:01:00] The Giants being 71 is pretty crazy. [1:01:04] Because that seems... [1:01:05] I just think that'll be 30-1 by the time the season starts. They're going to have enough talent with the schedule, and we just have seen this every year, that there's no way that they're not going to be in the mix somehow. This isn't a draft thing, but spending this amount of time really diving into these rosters. Yeah. [1:01:22] Obviously, the Seahawks have what they have. The Rams have what they have. I don't know that there's an organization with a better roster, let's just say, in the AFC. Top to bottom roster-wise than what Nick Casario has built in Houston. [1:01:35] the quarterback element of it and what is really going on there. And there's been speculation and rumors and all like, [1:01:43] And you drafted him that high and he was that good as a rookie. You know what I mean? [1:01:48] If, [1:01:49] if they get him right, and I don't even mean right, like playing his, but like three quarters of what he was playing as a rookie. Yeah. Um, [1:01:57] 20 to 1 for them. They're friendly. But that's the biggest if in sports. Yeah. [1:02:05] Their roster's like [1:02:07] Some teams with needs, it's like the first two are really important needs. The second one, we need to get some depth. The third, you know. [1:02:14] or the third, the fourth, but [1:02:16] for them, like they there's yes, their offensive line, let's continue to build that. But they don't have a lot of like they're loaded with [1:02:24] deep and wide receiver and running back. The receiver's coming back this year. Their defenses. The Rams are up there too, man. No, I said the Rams and Seattle have what they had. I mean, I was going to talk about the Rams with one of the pressure teams at 13 because

[1:02:38] The puka thing's a huge story. It's been one of those kicked under the rug. Yeah, no one's talking about it. This guy's had a lot of personal shit going on publicly. [1:02:46] And then finally went into rehab. [1:02:48] And this was the best receiver in the league. [1:02:52] Yeah. And we have no idea what we're going to expect from him this year now or what was going on with him or is it going to get better? And... [1:02:58] They're one of the teams that's just like, we're probably taking a receiver, probably taking a receiver. Like, so... [1:03:03] so blatantly that I almost don't trust it. I don't think they are at 13. [1:03:08] I think they're going to take a receiver in the second round. Yeah, yeah. There's like... [1:03:11] I bore you out with this attraction is different one person you'd be attracted to everyone's beautiful and all that for the rams [1:03:26] With their system specifically, they're not attracted to a lot of the fastest, tallest, all those receivers. They're attracted to one type. And that one type is a physical son of a bitch blocking contact balance, toughness up. And we're going to scheme you up and we'll get you open. And all you got to do is break that first tackle and just ram, you know, and keep it rolling and block for our for our run game. [1:03:54] and so i can get that in the second round there's john stripling from ole miss there's jeremy bernard from from uh from alabama there's even the third round so [1:04:03] I... [1:04:03] I think Les Snead is the biggest wild card in this first round of the draft. They seem like a Downsy kind of team to me. I...

[1:04:11] Like moving up a couple spots and just swooping in and getting them. They have guys there. I don't know if it's – they have players there. It's one of two things, right? [1:04:21] I just, I don't envision less in Sean sitting back at 13 and we'll take a guard or we'll take a, right. It's either we are all in as all indicators are pointing. They have to be all in in general because Stafford's got two years left max. Right. We're all in. [1:04:39] And we really don't like if we want to give up 2027, we're not we're not that worried about it. We can give up second next year or something like that and go move up and target a guy. Jeremiah Love is fascinating to me if he starts to fall six. [1:04:53] Cleveland, Cleveland, [1:04:54] I mean, can we stop? Can we make a rule that he can't go to Cleveland? [1:04:59] No, no, I'm saying trading. I'm just saying, like, you don't want him to go. That's my worst case scenario for him. Or for most of the guys in the draft. Yeah. So you're saying Rams switching goes 13 to 6. Something like that would be something to look out for. Like Todd Gurley 2.0 action from them? But then what if it's a total pivot and it's like, yeah, we're going to be here beyond Stafford. We're doing a deal now with Matthew and we're going to keep him happy. But we are in love with Ty Simpson. And so we're just going to take him at 13th. [1:05:30] We can move on. Don't ask more questions. We don't have to dwell on it, but I'm just saying I said it. [1:05:34] Holy mackerel. [1:05:37] Wouldn't you at least trade back to do that? He's going higher than you think.

[1:05:42] That was one of the questions I had for you because... [1:05:46] I was watching one of the channels this morning. They were talking about, is 21 too high to take Ty Simpson for Pittsburgh? And I'm like, what are you guys talking about? He's definitely, the question is, will he be there at 21 for Pittsburgh to take? [1:05:59] Because somebody's going to shoot their wide and take them in the top 20 would be my prediction. That's the information I'm getting, and I don't definitively know. I throw the Rams out there because I'm getting information definitely, and I know the Rams at one point really like – [1:06:11] Ty Simpson. That's... [1:06:14] firm. His Fando draft position is 29.5 under. Yeah. Yeah, because even if you're the... [1:06:21] Even if you're the Cardinals, you are... [1:06:24] you're worried that there's another team or, [1:06:26] Yeah. You can't wait. Yeah. I'm told that the Jets do have interest, but I'm also told that the Jets have interest. Jets at 16? No, no. No. [1:06:36] at 33 could take him. [1:06:39] I think he's not getting out of the first round. I just don't see it. We're saying the same thing. Yeah. Well, plus you get the extra year. That's the secret sauce to all of this. You get the fifth year. If you take them in the first round. Yeah. You talked about Pittsburgh. Is Aaron Rodgers going to make an appearance and say he's coming back in front of the tens of thousands of draft fans there? [1:06:56] And then what were their reactions? No, because Aaron Rodgers won. He's like, oh, Aaron Rodgers. How many times were you going to put... I don't even understand why, like, Schefter and those, like, [1:07:05] but people are out there and I know he and those two have a thing and I love it. Right. Um, [1:07:11] But I don't even understand why there's this like, you know, you should tell the organization this type of thing.

[1:07:16] We get it's every year. It's the same thing. It's just the human being, the human being. Aaron Rodgers wants this and he would like nothing more going out there gives closure. And then we're still not talking about it through the second. Him and Jerry Jones are the two that like, how, how can I get attention? Right. This is going on in late March. But the draft being in Pittsburgh. Yeah. Late. No question. Yeah. It'll be going in Pittsburgh. He can go out in front of all the fans. He wants us all to be like, is Aaron here? You know? Yeah. [1:07:46] Kind of the sad thing about that is nobody's doing that. [1:07:49] Yeah. [1:07:52] That's what I mean. Does he come out and be like, I'm coming back. And all the Pittsburgh fans are like, oh, cool. Great. We did it. It's not the response that he thinks it's going to be. Also, I said this to you last year. I just think people get amnesia with NFL seasons. And we throw ourselves in the draft and free agency. And then it's the summer. And then we get to August. And people just don't remember what happened the year before. It's like we left last season and be like, yeah, Aaron Rodgers. [1:08:19] playoff round at most with Aaron Rodgers as your QB at age 42. It's like four months off and everyone's like, could they get him? Yeah. They're going to Howard right now, so I don't know. [1:08:31] Well, we finally made it. The NBA playoffs. No more tanking discussions, at least for a couple days. We get to watch the best players and teams compete every day. [1:08:40] when the stakes are highest. And when I watch, I like to bet on Fando. Fando is a brand I trust. Easy to build. Buy bet. I know I'll get my winnings instantly. I love looking at the odds there.

[1:08:51] So this week, [1:08:52] I still feel like Orlando is being overlooked. [1:08:56] They were like plus nine, something like that. I think that's a 50-50 series potentially. I also like Denver and Minnesota. I think Minnesota is a really good road team, but you could also get them in Minnesota. [1:09:06] Those would be the two I would look at. I'm going to have at least one more set of picks over the weekend I'm going to put on Twitter. Check out my picks in the FanDuel Sportsbook app and on my Twitter feed. Don't forget to boost your potential winnings before you place it. [1:09:20] Play your game. Did you know about one in three people with plaque psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness and swelling? [1:09:30] Does this sound like you? [1:09:33] Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. [1:10:03] Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. [1:10:09] Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphaya, including important safety information.

[1:10:22] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. [1:10:24] Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. [1:10:31] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda. [1:10:36] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. [1:10:42] But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs store-wide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. [1:10:56] Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. [1:11:01] So Rams are off the board. We have no idea what they're going to do. [1:11:06] And then the Philly thing is the other weird thing about this draft. Why? We talked about this before we started. With this A.J. Brown trade that is apparently happening. [1:11:14] And yet, unlike in the NBA where you say, we've agreed to a trade, we can't become official until July 15th in the NBA. NFL, it's like, [1:11:23] Well, they can't trade him until June 1st because then they can split his cap. So it would have to happen after June 1st. It's going to happen. [1:11:32] Is it happening or is it not happening? Right. And then all the variables that could change this happening, [1:11:38] including like a wide receiver ending up for either the Patriots or the Eagles that they get excited about. [1:11:43] A.J. Brown feels like he has leverage and says, well, [1:11:46] I need a contract extension if we're going to do this. Like, I'm just glass half empty on this AJ Brown thing. Is this the Patriots fan speaking or just in- Patriots fan speaking. Okay, yeah. Is this trauma from when the Red Sox didn't get A-Rod?

[1:11:58] Trauma from when we didn't get everybody. Alex Craigman, four months ago. He's coming for $150 million, and he wasn't. I just don't... When you get agents involved and just outside factors, I just don't trust anything until... [1:12:13] It happens. If you're someone, a receiver gets hurt or something happens where someone needs it and all of a sudden they're in the market and they're calling Philadelphia. Yeah, but AJ Brown's wife is calling about dance classes and Brookline or something like that. I mean, he did grow up a Patriot fan. Yeah, but it's... I understand. What if he's in Vegas and Jalen Hurts is there too and they're like, let's have dinner. Let's hash it out. Two hours later, it's like, hey, we're good. AJ wants to stay. Right. [1:12:41] The other problem there is how he's like, well, I just traded for Wix and brought in this other guy. Yeah. We're going to draft someone. And yeah. So they're picking 23. 23. [1:12:49] Well, [1:12:50] But they're not going to pick 23. It's Howie Roseman. He has to move around. [1:12:57] and they need an offensive tackle. And what's going to happen is we're going to have – [1:13:02] Francis Maui Noah from Miami, and then Spencer Fano from Utah. [1:13:06] And somewhere in that top, [1:13:09] 10-12 range right? [1:13:12] And then... [1:13:13] there's this like second wave of, and, [1:13:16] I think it starts at 17. There could be a team in between. The Ravens could go guard and Benga Iwane from Penn State. But then 17 is Detroit, and everyone knows that they've put in more work than every other organization in these offensive tackles.

[1:13:31] So the Jets are at 16, Tampa's at 15. They're already getting phone calls from organizations like the Steelers, the Eagles, the Texans, the... [1:13:42] Who are the Texans, the 49ers, the Bears are possibility. So all those, you got this murderer's row of teams that need offensive tackles from 17 to 30. I mean, Miami, if they don't get a tackle at 12, they could use one. So I can't say the Patriots don't need a tackle. Sorry, 31. Yeah, absolutely. 31. So 17 to 31. There's about eight teams. [1:14:07] that need an offensive tackle and there's at that point only five remaining [1:14:13] So there's going to be movement there. That's why seven and a half over. Yeah. [1:14:17] Do you want to hear the Patriots excuses I've talked myself into since Super Bowl? [1:14:22] Why they lost? Yeah. Okay. Drake was hurt. I don't know if that's true or not. That's a fact. Well, we think it's true. Yeah. Okay. I did see him throwing the mini footballs at the basketball game a couple weeks ago. I don't know if you saw that. You were good? I did see that, actually. I thought he was snapping it again. Yep. Drake was definitely hurt. [1:14:40] That's one thing I say. Will Campbell definitely playing on a bum knee. He's a whipping boy during the playoffs. Now he's a hero to me. He's played through pain. God only knows what kind of suffering he had. Jared Wilson wasn't great either, by the way. Everyone talks about Campbell, but Jared Wilson... Our whole line got destroyed. Seattle didn't even know which side to go after. Did I tell you about him and Elliot Wolfe? Oh, no.

[1:15:02] We had Elliot Wolf and we did the GM series. Yeah. [1:15:06] And, um, [1:15:07] And we had Elliot Wolfe in. I had met him before, but I didn't know him well. And Mench got in late the night before. We got in Indianapolis, all sorts of weather in New England. [1:15:16] you don't deal with it out here anymore, Bill. And I know. And, and so we hadn't had a chance to really talk about it. We sit down. I asked a couple of questions. I'm talking about like, you know, Elliot, what's it like, you know, Ron, you're with your dad and like the bowels of Lambeau field. And you're watching tape is, you know, you know, I'm kind of getting them warmed up, right? The fluffers. The fluffers. Yeah. A lot of fluffers. Question three goes from Mitch. I can kind of feel like he's like, well, can't, well, yeah, I thought it was early. Oh, you didn't tell me this. [1:15:46] camp. I saw the short arms on tape. People saw it in the playoffs. And I'm like, oh my... He's going for it. I was like, are you guys moving regard? I didn't say it that way, but I was like, everyone wants to move regard. He would be a great guard. He was awesome. He looked like he goes, [1:16:01] He is absolutely our left actor. Yeah. He was great about it. He was great. But I felt like I had to ask. I mean, I've been ripping Campbell. Like, now he's going to be on our show and I'm not going to say anything. It was the time. The only thing I worry about him is I think he's such an intense, committed, competitive... [1:16:17] crazy all about the football team guy like the moment he got drafted he's like i am now drake may's bodyguard i'm gonna die yeah yeah and i really wonder mentally how he handled the [1:16:26] Just getting his ass kicked in the playoffs. He's probably been successful... [1:16:30] at that position at every stage of his life dating back to like age four. Yeah. Yeah. Some of the stories too, or he's,

[1:16:38] He's as intense as he can get. Yeah, like the team worries about him a little bit, taking the job home. Yes, taking the job home. So I hope he got through that, because we've certainly seen some Boston athletes over the years that kind of wilted. Yeah, that had the bad moment, and they were kind of... [1:16:55] I can't remember an offensive tackle having that kind of moment. It should be fine. That kind of stage. Plus now Reuben Bain is the new short-arm guy. Yeah. Right. He passed his torch. He's like, here, Reuben. Everyone can talk about your arm style. There's an offensive tackle from Utah I love, and he's got shorter arms, Will Campbell, and everyone's like, what's the deal, dude? How can you? How can you, like, one over the other? Yeah. It's a different tape. So the other thing, the other past stance I have now is we just should have lost in Denver and it would have been fine. [1:17:22] lose there in a blizzard. They score with five minutes left. We don't have to go to the Super Bowl and get this huge ass kicking. No one wins in Denver. It turns out right after the game, Drake May was actually hurt the whole time. And we're just like, great. Okay. Great season. Let's move on. It's like getting that Super Bowl ass kicking just made it so much worse. I really wish it hadn't happened. It's not a good thing. Right. And then you think about all the bad signs for this year and the bad juju that comes with this. [1:17:50] The A.J. Brown thing, [1:17:52] Thank you. [1:17:52] 2022 and 23, his first two years when he got traded from Tennessee to Philly. [1:17:57] 303 targets in those two years. [1:18:00] Almost 3,000 yards and 18 TDs. [1:18:04] He's going to be 29 this season. [1:18:07] There's pretty good track records with...

[1:18:10] people move in that age. And, um, [1:18:14] It seems good. Something scares me about it. And I don't know. I didn't like the way he looked last year. [1:18:19] I'd love to know more about why did he look that way? I agree with that. I also think fresh start. I think everyone kind of looked that way on the offense for the Eagles last year. There was a lot going on. So I'm hope I would be like they were just going to work like this sucks. [1:18:34] I hate my job. Yeah, with all the reports, I think it was just a drain. And obviously, he wears his emotions on his sleeve, and it's very public about everything that he's dealt with. And I think it's just, he hit a point. Is there a receiver that doesn't wear their emotions on their sleeve? Very few. [1:18:50] Fitz was one, that's it. [1:18:52] Yeah, it fits. That would be part of his Hall of Fame case. Never wore his emotions on his sleeve. [1:18:59] Unlike any other receiver. Actually, he literally didn't wear sleeves. He was sleeveless the whole time. [1:19:05] I just think about Drake with his development, getting him that. He doesn't have that. He's never had anything close to that. Well, Mina said on NFL Live yesterday, which I was watching, that the Pats had man-to-man defense. [1:19:20] the highest number of any team in the league. Yeah. Because, and you could feel it watching the game because every defense is like, eh. Yeah. What are we worried about? Let's just, let's play up on all these guys. Yeah. And AJ is like, [1:19:33] by all these bad stats, the best guy against man-to-man defense, and this would be a game changer. Right. So I get it. The thing that was interesting about the ESPN article that came out about the Eagles and Jalen Hurts calling his own plays, and did you read this? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was changing all the plays. If you're an offense coordinator and you're game planning for a guy, if you have a talent like A.J. Brown and you're like, we're game planning in this way,

[1:19:54] And all of a sudden your quarterback is changing everything that's no longer making him the focal point of the offense. Yeah. On certain plays at least. [1:20:01] And then you have an opportunity to go to play for Josh McDaniels, who's going to, like... [1:20:05] That's what he does. Well, they'll also play with pace, which is the thing I never understood with the Eagles. I know they... [1:20:12] It seemed like this was an actual strategy for them to limit the minutes in the game because of possessions, because of the math of this. [1:20:19] I don't think the Pats think that way at all. So they would be more like, [1:20:23] We'll put pressure on you, and we have AJ out there, and you're going to have to be constantly worried, and keep your defense on the field. And our quarterback can run. So... [1:20:32] Hopefully he can run and throw. [1:20:34] Unlike... [1:20:35] The last two games of the season. I assume he'll be able to roll out and throw again. We stopped calling that play. You're wearing the scars. I don't know if I will. When we were calling the Drake May rolls out and whips a line drive play, I was like, he's fucking hurt. You can't tell me he's not hurt at this point. It wasn't even. The arc and the velocity were just different. [1:20:54] What are the Patriots taking a tight end? They're going to need a tight end, right? I feel like people aren't talking. Well, there's 28 of them invited to the combine. They're talking about tight end. There'll be some third round guy. Yeah. Or maybe four. They signed a Bakken tight end. They were all excited. Yeah. Julian. Yeah. Julian. Somebody. Yeah. Julian Bell. Okay. Okay. [1:21:11] Last thing, [1:21:13] Well, second to last thing. [1:21:15] So Zona and Cleveland are the trade down teams. Yep. [1:21:19] And you think Saints, Cowboys have 12 and 20 and like getting attention.

[1:21:24] Jets at 16%. [1:21:26] Rams at 13. Are there any other trade-up teams? [1:21:29] Thank you. [1:21:31] Um, [1:21:34] I'm trying to sit here. Don't wash... [1:21:37] Washington's not going to... [1:21:40] Cleveland, we talked about [1:21:42] I think that's the list. Yeah, I think that's probably the list. I was trying to figure out. When we get to the offensive tackles, I think when we get to like Philly and some of those teams, I could see a move up. It's a little like quick moves back to four or five. Yeah, four or five spots. Yeah. [1:21:54] I was trying to figure out, like, [1:21:55] Somebody is on the board at nine. [1:21:58] That Jerry gets all excited about because he's 98 years old. [1:22:02] Like Jeremiah Love falls to nine. [1:22:05] or down. Somebody's down. We can't anticipate. And could there be a [1:22:11] They have 12 and 20. [1:22:12] Yes. [1:22:13] and the Chiefs have 9 and 40, could there be like a [1:22:17] You take our 12 and 20. We'll take back 940 and a third, one of those type of trades. Yeah, the problem with that theory is I'm told the only reason that the Cowboys would move up is for an edge rusher. [1:22:30] And if there's an edge rusher worth taking there, I think the Chiefs would take it. That would be Reuben Bain. Right. So... [1:22:38] We do this. We talk about you talk about the amnesia in the offseason, the NFL. There's amnesia every year with the Cowboys in the draft. Yeah. You know that they've had thirty four thirty seven picks. I want to say somewhere in the mid to high 30s of picks in the first three rounds dating back to 2014. [1:22:54] And one time they have moved up.

[1:22:57] That was Demarcus Lawrence in 2014. Since then, nothing. So it's a lot of chatter about moving up. Oh, Jerry's going to go crazy. Well, it worked on me because I always do it every year. But this year, it actually would make sense as long as it doesn't require pick 20. They've got to pick, I think, 92 overall, the third round. I could see that. [1:23:15] But that's not getting up to three. [1:23:18] That's moving up a handful of spots to go get an edge rusher. I just don't know how feasible it is unless you're giving away next year or something, which I think I said it's a fireable offense. [1:23:30] Now, kind of walked it back, by the way. [1:23:32] I like fireball offenses, one of my favorite phrases, and would be a good blog name. Yes, it would be. And maybe even a good band. Yeah. Going to see fireball offense today. It's going to ring you, right? At the Garden. So a fireball offense is trading a first-round pick from next year. [1:23:48] that class is going to be, and it's not just the quarterback. So, [1:23:52] Has Mitch already started his work on the class of 27 yet? The quarterbacks we know pretty well. Not a lot of the other players. I got a mock draft coming out on. Way too early mock draft for next week. I love those. Taping the show on Monday. You're the problem. But you know what a good podcast is? [1:24:11] is reviewing the way too early mock draft. Oh, they do it. No, you guys doing it. Oh, yeah. We should do that. Because you're a couple quarterbacks way up there. That's the thing with the draft. It's humble pie, man. It's so volatile. Thanks, Bill. You're right. You're a good thing with 20-year-old kids. My son's 18, and he's had five zags just in the last seven months. These are teenagers and young dudes. Who knows? Yeah, and we saw some zags this fall.

[1:24:41] Well, the quarterbacks are all or you're out on him. [1:24:45] I wasn't in on him last year. Yeah, he was never. Yeah, but he's going to go probably in the third round. There's some teams that like him. Nussmeier? He loves Nussmeier. I like Nussmeier. Yeah, I think there's a shot. No? You can see Nussmeier in the third round, the right system. He doesn't have a ton of starts. He gets hurt. He's small. I don't see it. [1:25:02] I didn't see it either. All right. [1:25:04] Wild card. Crazy. I'm looking at the Fando odds. Is it Bailey or Reese? There's no chance anyone else goes to. [1:25:13] Correct. What if it's a trade? [1:25:14] I didn't think there was going to be a trade last year. Everyone else's odds are 125 to 1 and up. [1:25:20] So it's really everybody's decided these are the two. Yeah, it's definitely. Number three. [1:25:25] Reese is the favorite at plus 130. Bailey's plus 260. [1:25:29] Love is plus 330. [1:25:31] Say them again. [1:25:33] Reese plus 130. [1:25:35] Bailey plus 260, love plus 330. [1:25:39] Which I thought was fairly enticing. Bailey's assumed to go the second overall pick, so that makes Reese the favorite. The problem with the Arizona pick is that there's a legitimate chance that the team moves up to three, and Arizona takes a below-market deal. But if they move up to three, who are they taking? It would be for Reese. Okay. Yeah. All right. Four. [1:25:56] What's Sonny Stiles number before? [1:25:59] For four? Yeah. [1:26:02] Well, love is plus 150 in the favorite. [1:26:05] Daley's plus 410 and Styles is plus 490. [1:26:09] That's interesting. [1:26:11] I think Stiles could be. I'm not saying he will.

[1:26:13] What I've been told for [1:26:15] for Tennessee is it's if one of those edge rushers does get there, let's say Arizona takes Jeremiah Lovett three. Yeah. They would take Reese, let's say. [1:26:24] If not, Sonny Stiles. Robert Sala views it, [1:26:29] differently than most, that middle linebacker is like, that's the equivalent of getting an edge for him. Yeah. That's, you know, Fred Warner, that's there. So... [1:26:37] That's something to look out for. I can see styles going for it too. I also didn't mind Tennessee's running backs last year. [1:26:43] But you'd have to really love love. But it makes me nervous spending all that capital on a QB and a running back. Yeah. [1:26:51] right? You're going to do the fourth and the... [1:26:53] First pick in back-to-back drafts. [1:26:56] The thing about Tennessee's run game, when I started looking at it, Pollard's a pretty good back. I mean, 1,000 yards for like five or six seasons in a row. He was running down the stretch last year. He's good. Yeah, he was like winning fantasy drafts. And they had Tyra Spears. But Spears can't stay healthy. He can't stay healthy, yeah. So they had the third fewest carries. You have a rookie quarterback, and they had the third fewest carries in the league. It doesn't have to be love. They've got to get another back that they can get more committed to the ground game. They just have to. What I'm interested in is you're sitting there at four. [1:27:26] You have to take styles at four or you try to bait up a team to come get Jeremiah Love. The Giants putting out all of a sudden in the last 72 hours. It's tough to manage all this, man, because I'm having conversations with people who are actually making decisions. And we're talking about all 31 other teams and what they could do and what they're hearing, what the scouts are hearing. And they're kind of using you to find out what you're hearing. Totally. Yeah. And I'm using them to find out what they're hearing.

[1:27:56] the tap dance. Yeah. Um, [1:28:00] And then you get off the phone and you get on the next call. So, [1:28:03] There's just a lot of, [1:28:04] But I always get worried in the last 72 hours... [1:28:08] to like 150 hours of [1:28:10] Why is this, this message is coming, it's resurfacing, or this is the first I've heard of this, you know? [1:28:16] Right. Is this late developing news or is this a purpose? Now the board is set. The decisions are basically made. So but all of a sudden the giants, it's like, oh, if love is there, they'll take them. [1:28:27] But wouldn't, if love's there, isn't that like, [1:28:30] come, [1:28:31] come move up and get it. What they don't know is that might drive the market up for Tennessee to get a good deal to move out of for. [1:28:39] Now, Styles is probably going to go seven. So where would that be, too? But, yeah. I was going to say I wouldn't mind moving back a couple spots and picking up something. Because I just need people. Yeah, I would. [1:28:49] Fifth pick, the odds. Styles is the favorite at plus 185. [1:28:53] Tyson's plus 280. I'm told it's not style. Take the field on that one. Love plus 380. [1:28:59] Caleb Downs, [1:29:01] plus 550. [1:29:04] What about Tyson? [1:29:06] Tyson was plus 280. [1:29:10] I think Tyson's in play. [1:29:12] I mean, I know Tyson's in play, but do they think they can get him at 10? Same thing with Downs. [1:29:16] Jeremiah loves the wild card. Taking Tyson at five would be kind of insane. [1:29:22] I think. [1:29:23] That's because of the injuries. [1:29:25] Yeah, because of the injuries. I want my right receivers to be in the field. Yeah, yeah.

[1:29:31] It... [1:29:32] It becomes this balancing act of, or now we've fallen in love. [1:29:36] But where do we really truly think we should be able to take them versus – [1:29:41] Where can we take it? Why do the Giants need another stud receiver, by the way? [1:29:45] Malik neighbors, they don't even know. They're worried about [1:29:49] when he's coming back to full strength, like the start of the season, there's part of that. You've got a quarterback that needs another weapon. Honestly, it reeks to me. Jordan Tyson feels like if we can get him at 10, 10, awesome. Okay. But, [1:30:03] the information, [1:30:04] for what it's worth, is saying that they might, they could take a swing there. [1:30:08] Can I give you my five types of receivers? Yes. Yes. [1:30:12] Speaking of Jordan Tyson, the injury-prone stud. Yep. [1:30:15] Really tough one. Yeah. Really, I have to have a lot of meetings about that. High floor ceiling guy, but something leaves you a little cold. Cardinal Tate. [1:30:25] Like, yeah, he's going to be awesome, but why aren't I more excited to take him? Yeah. Well, because he was the second best receiver on his college team. So it was JSN. I get it, but that was the same thing on JSN. Was this guy going to be? So the high floor ceiling leaves me a little cold. Okay. Okay. [1:30:39] Physical and traffic wins every ball guy. This guy just goes either way. Like, he just, you know, this is like the DeAndre Hopkins was a great example of this. The Patriots have had guys like this. Other times, the guy just can't get open. [1:30:56] Yeah, who's the scheme. Kelvin Benjamin for the Panthers, wasn't he a big guy? Yeah. So Denzel Boston is the version of that this year. I like him. We know. The inside-outside guy that everyone calls Twitchy?

[1:31:09] Yeah. That's Casey Concepcion. Yeah. Twitchy is a good one. So the pass at Kyle Williams last year is Twitchy. Yeah. Twitchy. Yeah. He'll beat you. Yeah. And then Slot Stud, which is my personal favorite. That's Lemon. [1:31:22] I like when it's just like you know what this guy is he's an awesome fucking slot guy and he's just going to get open and he can block [1:31:29] That sounds great. I'll take that guy. How early, though? In the second round. Because that's the second round. There you go. [1:31:36] Yeah, so you'd love Jeremy Bernard. You'd love Dajon Stribling. [1:31:40] Omar Cooper Jr. at one point we thought was going to be second, but it's going to be first. Those are those guys. And then there's the other, there's the sixth type, which is the guy... [1:31:51] What's his name? Brazil Junior. Yeah. [1:31:54] It's one of those like [1:31:55] fall in love and or you're getting fired one of those yeah yeah depending on how high you got lottery ticket yeah yeah but he's just seems the highlights for him are awesome awesome yeah you're like whoa and then the trey lance's brother is another one like that tall four threes all of it yeah [1:32:12] The one guy I would never take is just, this dude's super fast, and we'll figure out the rest. The Pat took that guy 20 times. Yeah. Well, the Raiders used to take him every year. Then there's the Bengals' John Ross. Yeah, that was a good one. [1:32:27] Was it Devin? What was the name of the Jets? The Jets took one. Well, in the 80s, this guy used to go all the time. Yeah. They used to, the Raiders and the Jets. Who was the guy the Jets had that one time? They took him in the top four.

[1:32:40] Oh, shoot. Remember him? Johnny Lamb Jones. Okay. He's really fast. That's about it. Yeah, we've had those. Yeah, there's a lot of those. I think we're getting better at not taking those guys too high. It's like, oh, he runs a 4-2. Cool. Historically, they don't do. The fastest guy at the combine is like 10% chance of you hitting on where they actually dropped. Who's your chip on the shoulder receiver [1:33:10] the guy who's just angry that he's not being mentioned with better guys and produced everywhere he went it could be jeremy bernard could be the alabama guy [1:33:20] He wasn't even the best receiver by everyone's measure at Alabama. Yeah. Ryan Williams just disappeared. Could we get him in the second round? [1:33:28] Yeah. [1:33:29] Bernard? Yeah. I just don't get it. [1:33:32] Because all I hear about, it's the same conversation. We had these conversations. We talked about how speed isn't as important as you think when you get down to that range. Like Jeremy Bernard, all he does is make plays on tape, man. Like all he does is make plays. Yeah. He's the best player on that team last year. And people are like, eh, I don't know. [1:33:48] I don't know. He's not dynamic. Yeah, he doesn't. He isn't. But if you if you fit him right in the right system. [1:33:54] He's got a chance to be... [1:33:56] an 80 catch a year guy. If I was the wide receiver draft specialist, I would just want guys that got open on the tape that I was watching. And caught the ball. Yeah. Did you get open? Did you catch it when they threw it to you? It sounds so easy. Those guys about like, he's amazing in traffic. It's like, cool. No thanks. Cody and Williams is one from Clemson. He gets open. Yep.

[1:34:18] Gets open. Is there a beloved running back for you in the second, third, fourth rounds that you're just... Jonah Coleman. Okay. He's... [1:34:25] Maurice Jones Drew. That's what he's built like. He is a short [1:34:29] I love those guys. He dances too much. He danced behind a Washington offensive line that wasn't great. I get... [1:34:37] He just... [1:34:39] His twitch and his build and his contact balance, I think he's going to be a really good pro. Second round? [1:34:47] fourth. Oh, wow. Who's your Tyler Shuck this year? Cole Pate. McShay fucking nailed that last year. Oh, yeah. You talked about him on my pod. So you're still with him. Yeah. You might be able to get him late third, early fourth. [1:35:00] Are you in on this? No, not at all. Good. [1:35:03] McShea would sit there all year long And tell you about how important snaps are We're getting like texts from everyone Stanford Steve is busting his balls All year long about like How many snaps though McShea, how many snaps And then we get into the process And Garrett Nussmeier is the greatest even though he doesn't have that many snaps And he pulls this guy out from the Watered down FCS Where all the guys have left for Better teams And Bryce Lance who's the best athlete on the field Is running around like it's backyard football [1:35:33] Thank you. [1:35:33] who was playing running back two years ago, was also going to be the next great quarterback. He called him better than Carson Wentz, right? You said he was a better prospect than Carson Wentz? Yeah, I think he has better traits. Sometimes you can just get a lot of confidence after you hit one of these. Like, this might be your heat check moment. Post-Shuck, I'm rolling. You're just trying to make the magic happen again. Yep, darting Shuck last year. Give me tailing green. I love Shuck. I don't know how many years he's going to play because he takes huge hits and he doesn't care. He starts the same way. History's not good either.

[1:36:03] Every time. Or at least he did last season. But I liked him. He's a tough... Alright, so you're playing this week. We are going to be doing shows all week. We're going to be live on Netflix. [1:36:16] During the first round Thursday night. Oh, I wanted to run this by you. Yeah. Not my idea. [1:36:21] Actually came from Rich Eisen. I'm just going to be honest. [1:36:23] Instead of the chime from ESPN, the... [1:36:27] Yeah, that's right. [1:36:30] Thank you. [1:36:30] Oh, dude, the Netflix noise? Yes. That's a good idea. Right? You like it? I don't know. We'd have to find out from the guys. I'm looking in the control room. They were working on it. That's a really good idea. Right? Right? Yeah. The NFL draft is live on Netflix. I feel like I'm about to watch a true crime documentary. But no, it'll be the next pick. With all the stuff that he asked you, were you worried when he said, I want to run something by you on your show? I mean, with McShay, you've got to hold on to your seat at all times. Right. Like, yeah. This is where we're going. That's fair. No, the Netflix show is good, though. [1:37:00] is pretty doable. [1:37:01] So we got Thursday night, Friday night live. Then we'll do a Saturday, like, wrapping up the whatever. And then Sunday we do a [1:37:09] the big 32 team so it lasts the offseason so you can kind of [1:37:14] Yeah, get the deep dive in that. [1:37:16] Monday we're in taping the way too early mock draft and then we're out of your hair. Don't forget to do the redo of last year's mock draft. I think that's a good idea. Dan Colmer, you got that? In the lead up, right? Not now, but in the lead up. No, like just when you need evergreen content for when it's kind of dying in the spring. Yeah, I think it's great. I love it. All right. Good to see you guys. Thanks for coming on. Thanks. Yeah.

[1:37:38] And now it's time for today's With the Assist segment presented by State Farm. On the court, you can't expect everything to go as planned. [1:37:45] But that's when your teammates come in. Because when you know someone's there, you have the confidence to take on whatever comes next. And we've seen some pretty iconic teammate combinations. My favorite was Bird and McHale in the 80s for the Celtics. Three titles, 81, 84, 86. The best forward combo I think we've ever had, complementing each other perfectly. Both guys' bodies broke down by the late 80s, but we had... [1:38:08] an incredible ride for them, and they really complement each other perfectly. Life's no different. [1:38:13] Unexpected things happen. You want to know someone's there to help. [1:38:16] Like how Larry Bird was there to help Kevin McHale. That's where State Farm comes in. They've got easy to use digital tools like the State Farm app and neighborhood State Farm agents when you want to talk to a real person. [1:38:26] Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there with the assist. [1:38:29] Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. [1:38:36] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. [1:39:04] Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the Unreal College Deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last. Ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC.

[1:39:35] With Van Latham, we're in the Ringer tailgate set. [1:39:37] You saw the Michael Jackson movie last night. [1:39:39] We did rewatchables together. We taped rewatchables for next week. We did Ghostbusters. [1:39:44] And then you left to go see Michael Jackson, a movie that ends – [1:39:48] In 1989. With Bad. Yeah. With Bad. With a live performance of Bad in London. I'm going to try not to spoil as much as you guys can go out and see the movie for yourself. I encourage you. Well, we know what happened to Michael Jackson. We do. We do. But, you know, there's still some things in there that I think people are going to be interested in seeing. Like what? [1:40:06] The performance of Jafar Jackson. [1:40:09] In the movie is a revelation. He's phenomenal as Michael Jackson. Is there any relation? I know nothing. I've read nothing. I know nothing. Okay. Jermaine's son. So Jermaine's son. Jermaine Jackson's son plays Michael Jackson, which in some ways probably some like. [1:40:22] Weird. [1:40:23] cosmic justice for Jermaine Jackson. You know, there wasn't always a... Did he need justice? [1:40:29] No, he didn't. But what I'm saying is that at times Jermaine and Michael didn't have like the best relationship or whatever. But, you know, they're brothers. So that's what happens in family. But yeah, so he plays Michael Jackson. [1:40:40] He. [1:40:41] dances like Michael Jackson. He embodies the spirit of Michael Jackson. And honestly, he nails it. When I say he nails it, he nails it to a degree that like, [1:40:49] a Hugh Jackman Wolverine type nail in it. He really nails Michael Jackson in the movie. And it's a shame because the movie is an abomination. [1:40:58] Abomination. Yeah. Okay. So I have to, I have to, [1:41:03] You guys know me. [1:41:04] I always start in love.

[1:41:06] Coleman Domingo. Great. Neil Long. [1:41:08] Great. Jafar Jackson, great. [1:41:11] It's not a serious movie. [1:41:13] It's not a serious movie. It's a movie about somebody who we all love to pieces, love Michael Jackson to pieces, right? He is almost like a mythical character, not even like a human being. And that's the way the movie treats him. [1:41:27] The movie treats him like a mythical character. Don't all of these music hagiographies treat the [1:41:33] the people that way? Like Elton John, Freddie Mercury. I'm kind of used to this with my biopics for movies. Yeah, [1:41:41] To a degree, [1:41:42] So you're not wrong, which is why I realized something while I was watching Michael. [1:41:48] The biopic is dead. [1:41:50] the biopic. [1:41:51] as to me. [1:41:53] the biopic and maybe even the biographical documentary as a storytelling tool, I think is gone. I would say both are, I've been saying this for a while. We saw this happen with books. [1:42:05] Books used to be, they would do biographies about people that people would participate in. And sometimes they'd be pretty hard-hitting. [1:42:12] maybe the person would have regretted participating at all. And then eventually that shifted to the autobiography. And almost every time when somebody does the autobiography, it's like, all right, I'm going to take this with an entire salt shaker [1:42:23] of salt, not just one grain. I'm going to just assume this is this person's version. It's going to be very flattering to them. [1:42:30] They're going to remember the things they want to remember. [1:42:33] not be that candid about the things maybe they don't want to talk about. And that's just what I'm getting. And in documentaries for a while,

[1:42:40] They felt pretty... [1:42:43] You kind of felt like you were getting all the sides of the stories. And something shifted with that in the last 10 years. Yeah, I think the streamers had something to do with it in terms of the amount of people that were doing biopics on themselves while they were still around. Or the estate that controls it. When you look at this movie, though. [1:43:01] There's like right off the bat, there's a storytelling issue here. The movie has no story. There's no story to the movie. Well, wasn't the famous, the story was that they did it a certain way and the estate made them change everything, right? I mean, this has been a long time. [1:43:14] I want to make sure people understand [1:43:16] I am not complaining about this movie or down on the film because the movie didn't go into some of the more controversial aspects of Michael Jackson's life. Controversial. Yeah. So, hey, that's the word. It is a family. Got it. The sexual assault allegations against. Oh, we can say that as well. Let's say that. Great. I'm not I'm not tripping because the movie didn't get into that. It because I didn't expect it to is that it doesn't really interrogate anything about Michael Jackson really that seriously. Yeah. [1:43:44] Like the movie, what you were supposed to come away from is that [1:43:48] Michael Jackson is like... [1:43:51] divinely touched [1:43:54] extraordinarily good [1:43:58] I thought that anyway. But what I'm saying is... Maybe as a musician or a person? No, no, no, as a person. Oh. Like, as a person, the movie goes through a great length. [1:44:06] great lengths to cite him, [1:44:10] to make him look like it every time there's a kid, Michael Stassard, a kid every time. And you see people looking at him as he's doing these good works and they seem to be like arrested by his purity. It's really laid on thick. Now look,

[1:44:25] Once again, [1:44:26] The same magical space that Michael Jackson exists in for a lot of people, he exists in that space for me. And I understand that, that that's people want to kind of live in that. But like, you got to give me something, right? You got to give me, you got to give me a real analysis of where the genius and the drive and all of that stuff came from. And the movie just doesn't take any of that seriously. [1:44:47] Yeah. All right. So if the estate's like, here's all the stuff that's off limits, but you can make a movie anyway. [1:44:54] I'd probably have focused it [1:44:56] thriller to when his hair gets caught on fire. [1:45:00] And he starts getting weird. [1:45:01] And he becomes so famous that he basically can't do anything. He becomes a recluse. [1:45:06] On top of the fact that the hair thing seemed like it was really damaging to him. He got burned. He felt like he was disfigured. Led to a lot of the stuff that his skin changing, all the plastic surgery. [1:45:18] That seemed to be the tipping point moment. [1:45:21] Combined with the victory tour when him and his brothers went out and they bankrupted the Sullivan family, basically. But just that whole era, I just would have centered it there versus – [1:45:30] stopping in 1989 is insane Bill why was that the stopping point I think you know why [1:45:38] But why not stop in 1987? Why'd they pick 89? Well, if you go to 1997, you can't not talk about that. But I'm saying, why not just stop in 87? Just stop with that. Oh, stop before bad. They get to... [1:45:50] They get to him on a world tour. It's like him doing a solo world tour, which was a big deal for him. He wanted to do a solo world tour. So they stopped with him doing the bad world tour. Here's the frustrating thing. Everything that you just talked about, that's all in the movie.

[1:46:03] All of it's in the movie. [1:46:05] His plastic surgery stuff is in the movie. Vitiligo stuff is in the movie. [1:46:10] Um, the burning of the hair is probably the thing that they, that the movie gets the most right. Right. Interesting. Because of the reason why he's doing that commercial, obviously at the behest of his father, um, he's wants to go back out on tour with his brothers, like what it cost him and how. [1:46:27] him being burned actually starts his relationship with, with painkillers and stuff like that, which we all know would eventually take his life. So that sounds interesting to me, but it doesn't, it just, it's just on the screen. Yeah. Okay. It's, it's, there's nothing. So it's just like, Hey, like I have vitiligo. I have to take this medicine for it. Like Michael, [1:46:48] at one point says he doesn't like his nose. The next thing he comes home and he and he's had a nose job. Yeah. Right. [1:46:53] There was a movie called The Jackson Family and American Dream, a miniseries from the early 90s, right? I saw it. Okay. Okay. [1:47:00] That movie is, [1:47:02] treats Michael Jackson and, [1:47:04] as a real... [1:47:06] fragile, [1:47:07] wandering mind of genius in a real serious way. There's a scene of him looking in the mirror, [1:47:15] talking about the fact that his face is breaking out, talking to his mother about his nose. And you get the feeling of how displaced he felt in his body at some time, right? [1:47:24] And it's a serious scene. It's like a real scene. Or when Motown 25 is about to happen and Michael goes, I'll do it with my brothers. I'll perform my brothers, but I want a solo spot. It's a powerful moment of him like stepping away.

[1:47:38] This movie just can't get to any of that stuff. It's on the screen, but not really interrogated in any way. [1:47:45] But I do know what is interrogated. [1:47:48] a weird scene with Miles Teller as the lawyer. Where Michael Jackson is... Miles Teller in this movie. I'm sitting next to Jomie, I'm like, we're watching the scene and there's this weird scene where all of these guys are sitting around [1:48:02] And [1:48:04] he fucking talks to Miles Teller's character. And he's like, everybody get out the room. You stay. You're my guy. And then they're in the movie. And I'm like, yo, whoever that guy is, [1:48:13] Right. He greenlit this movie. He has something to do with this movie because this scene doesn't make any fucking sense to be in a movie about Michael Jackson. Now this guy pops in and you got an A-list star playing him. It didn't make any sense whatsoever. And then at the end of the movie, I'm looking and it says, yeah, look, producer, John Branco, whatever his name is, whatever. So like, I don't mean to trash it because there are, I think that people are going to enjoy it because you're going to take a trip down memory lane. But [1:48:40] It's just... [1:48:42] It was just like glossy bullshit. [1:48:44] Right. [1:48:45] Well, and Antoine Fuqua is the director. Yeah. [1:48:49] So when he, he probably signed up for something that he felt like was going to be a completely different movie and now has to pretend this was the movie he made, which, which is clearly not the case. [1:48:59] I mean, the movie isn't poorly made. I mean, it's got all... It's got, like, top... It's well-done gloss. Well-done gloss, but, like... [1:49:05] I don't know. [1:49:07] People are going to hear this.

[1:49:09] And they're going to be like, [1:49:11] How could Van B? [1:49:12] this upset about it because Van is the one, [1:49:16] that [1:49:17] Year after year. [1:49:18] goes into the theater to watch some of the most ham-handed superhero shit that's ever existed, right? [1:49:25] It occurred to me. Yeah. [1:49:27] Thank you. [1:49:28] I held out. [1:49:30] a difference or I made a distinction here. This is the MCU-ification of a biopic. [1:49:38] This is the we know that we have you. [1:49:40] So we don't have to do anything else. [1:49:42] which, [1:49:43] is the criticism about the MCU that exists now, about superhero movies that exist now. You signed up for this, so it's not our fault. Hey, you're in here to watch action figures fly around. Yeah. And that's all we got to give you. [1:49:55] Earlier on, I think the exciting thing about those movies was that they did not do that. They played around with genre. They took chances. They did other stuff. But it got to the point to where they knew they had us, and so we were going to watch whatever it was. And now there's a lot of people that are disillusioned with them. When I go to see a movie about this type of person at this type of impact, you want to come away feeling like you know what made that guy tick. So what would be the perfect impact? [1:50:20] ip that you would want to sign up for for michael jackson because for me it would be like a 10-hour documentary that was like warts and all like let's go let's dive into this dude there are two different movies [1:50:31] One movie would be [1:50:32] This same movie, but just about the making of Thriller. [1:50:36] So you confine it to like 82 to 85, that's it. Just about the making of thrills. By the way, that's what they should have done. Right. Like when I say just. Because that takes them off the hook with everything that happens in the 90s. You can flash back to stuff that happens. We really don't necessarily need.

[1:50:53] the whole Jackson 5 journey. It is one of the most famous journeys that's ever existed in Super Stardom. But the making of Thriller is very special. It's a special time in music. It's a special time in culture. And it's a special time where this person reaches their zenith, like an athlete. What was the season that Michael Jordan just became the guy that everybody was waiting for Michael Jordan to become? [1:51:16] That doesn't happen in culture as much as we think that it does. They tried to do that with the Springsteen movie, and it was weird. They picked Nebraska, which I'm a Springsteen guy. Nebraska was a really interesting choice. [1:51:27] But it was basically, they told the whole story to set up. [1:51:30] what happens with Born in the USA, which then they don't go into. So it's like, we assume you already know what happened with Born in the USA. This part's more interesting. It's like, [1:51:39] You know, it would have been a really interesting board in the USA. [1:51:42] With that, if you go granular, if you get deep into like, [1:51:46] what Michael had to sacrifice, what he was going through, the pressure he was under. You see how... Oh, a child star. That piece of art. He's in the 70s cocaine era. He's at Studio 54. All of that stuff. Everyone's trying to get in with him. And just after him, what it means to be like the biggest star in the world. [1:52:05] That's one. Number two, an interesting story that no one talks about is... [1:52:09] the just ridiculously [1:52:12] Amazing story. [1:52:14] of how Michael Jackson came to control the Beatles catalog. Right. Like, not just... [1:52:20] Hi, I'm cool with Paul McCartney.

[1:52:23] Paul has the idea. Michael is shrewd enough to go and work him on the idea. Just everything that had to happen. [1:52:32] for him to get that because that ends with a deal for him to like have to perform in Australia, right? And him performing in Australia, one of the accusers ended up, so there's a whole bunch of things that happen. I mean, you don't necessarily have to get into that. There's a whole bunch of things that happen with that. And it's one of the more, that is a story about the genius, the business genius and the cultural genius of Michael Jackson. I would also throw in the Lisa Marie Presley wedding. It's the third movie I want to say. I just don't know what [1:53:02] That was one of those, nobody knew what was going on the entire time. We still don't know what happened. We don't. And I remember they came out on MTV and it's like, no one thought this would last. And my dad was like, it hadn't lasted. What lasted? Like, what are you talking about? It hadn't lasted yet. I think with some of these things, the biggest things we've ever had, which is basically like Elvis, the Beatles, Michael Jackson. [1:53:24] These things come around content-wise every few years. [1:53:27] It happened on the Beatles a couple years ago when that thing, the behind the scenes Peter Jackson documentary, that was awesome. Yeah. [1:53:34] And it was like, oh, the Beatles are having a moment again, and then it goes. And then six years later, something else will happen. [1:53:41] Thank you. [1:53:41] I think that's happening with Michael Jackson now. I know everybody doesn't like the movie, but I think it's going to be the catalyst to a re-examination of... [1:53:49] all the stuff he did. Because what really happens is the new generations who don't,

[1:53:54] Like my son, when my son was like five, he didn't know backstory of Michael Jackson. He just knew he liked the songs. And the kids get into it. And it's a generational thing that never stops. [1:54:05] And... [1:54:06] I think this goes to a bigger point, which we were talking about when Kanye was here at SoFi a couple weeks ago, about people being able to separate the art, [1:54:15] from other stuff that may have happened. And how you can compart. If you like the music, you like the music, and you can just put it there. [1:54:23] And you can kind of push the other stuff this way. And that whole dialogue about whether that's, [1:54:29] Something we should, should we be that way? [1:54:31] With the heart wants. We don't have any choice. [1:54:35] I mean, just if we're being honest, [1:54:38] When I say we don't have any choice, what I mean is like, [1:54:40] I can choose if I want to not to... [1:54:44] listen to Michael Jackson music or to whatever. What I can't do, [1:54:49] With him specifically, not all the artists that have been involved in fuck shit are like this. But with Michael Jackson, it's so tied. [1:54:57] to the most formative years of my brain that if I see him or I hear the music, my body reflexively does something. Right. You hear Billie Jean and your legs just start moving. It is uncontrollable. There's nothing you can do. Now, you can make the decision to talk about things responsibly and make sure you hold space for victims and make sure you have these conversations with the gravitas and the weight that they deserve, right? You can do all that. Nobody wants to do that when they're on Spotify on a walk at two in the afternoon or working out. And they're just like, fuck it,

[1:55:27] Thank you. [1:55:27] The reality of all of this, and by the way, I just want to say this real quick. [1:55:31] And this is, you know, [1:55:33] People can feel the way they want about this I worked at TMZ for a very long time I worked at TMZ for a long time [1:55:39] So the people that I know, [1:55:40] that have looked into Michael Jackson's various cases. [1:55:45] The people that I know have looked into them in a really granular way, like in a really detailed way. [1:55:51] Looking at his situation is interesting because he's, [1:55:56] I have to be real, real observations. [1:56:01] the people that I know, the deeper you get into all of the stuff that happened with him, [1:56:05] the more questions you actually have about whether or not he ever was actually guilty of something. The news director at TMZ back in the day, [1:56:14] He's like, wasn't, I'm not talking about, he's not from South Baton Rouge like me. He was a white boy from Orange County. Swore up and down. He's like, man, I have all of these documents. He didn't do anything. [1:56:24] All of this stuff. And so there is there is this thing with him and all of his cases. He beat it in court. There's this thing with him to where the more you get into it, people that I know that really have deep knowledge of everything that happened. [1:56:38] They... [1:56:39] look at it and they go, they don't think that he did anything. Now, maybe that's me coping. That could be me coping. But the reality of the situation is that is true for people that I know that have really looked at. That's how I feel about Mike Frabel.

[1:56:58] the guy just wanted some rest the other six people they were there it's a great resort like a relaxation weekend but [1:57:09] To your point, though, [1:57:11] The movie... [1:57:12] The first thing I did when I got home, [1:57:15] was put on Michael Jackson shit on YouTube. [1:57:17] The first thing I did. [1:57:19] But even that, [1:57:21] If you do a biopic about Michael Jackson and Jafar Jackson, [1:57:25] Once again, in the performance and in the dance. It's great. [1:57:30] If you do a biopic about Michael Jackson, the best parts can't be like, [1:57:33] making thriller or performing on stage. Because if I want that, I could just go to YouTube and watch that. [1:57:38] So there has to be other parts of the movie that aren't oriented around the music and around someone doing a Michael Jackson, essentially an impression. [1:57:47] This movie just doesn't have that. Well, apparently there's an incredible Elvis documentary right now that somebody spent a lot of time on, Baz Luhrmann, I think. [1:57:54] And it was like behind the scenes Vegas. They found all this footage and it's amazing. [1:57:59] And if that had come out in like 1989, it felt like it would have been the biggest movie in the world. [1:58:04] Now it's 2026. Elvis has been dead for 49 years. [1:58:09] I don't know if he has the same hold on people under 50. [1:58:12] I think people in their 70s and 80s might care. I wonder when Michael Jackson is going to hit that point. [1:58:17] I would argue with like in the Spotify era where people are just downloading music, you might not hit that point for like 40 more years. Yeah. [1:58:24] Where people are just like, [1:58:25] There might be some five-year-old right now in a car on the way home from school. They're listening to Thriller, and they don't know any better. They don't know anything other than the songs they're listening to.

[1:58:35] you know, [1:58:36] This might be the old man talking. [1:58:38] But, [1:58:41] and Elvis is a, [1:58:43] you know, ridiculously important American pop culture figure. It just feels different with Michael Jackson. [1:58:48] I don't know. I think that's generational. It probably is. Everything culturally expires. Everything culturally expires. [1:58:55] Because it's the same thing for Mickey Mano, Babe Ruth... [1:59:00] Frank Sinatra. There are these people that had these runs, but then as the years pass, [1:59:05] there's nobody there to kind of keep the torch going with the flames. You know what I mean? Ain't none of them people got a thriller though. That's true. Elvis was way up there though. Elvis is, I mean, Elvis was the biggest star we had in the world. I know. For years. But, [1:59:18] That's how we thought. [1:59:20] Then the biggest star came into the room. It's just different. You have to tell me. I was there. Michael's the biggest... He's the most talented, biggest star I've ever seen in my life. Right, and... [1:59:30] Like him doing the Motown 25 was like probably the greatest non-sports TV moment I've ever had. And so I remember watching that just over and over and all of the videos. Michael has so many different eras. Like you can't really put it all in one biopic because it's like his life was like, [1:59:46] it had like three or four sequels, right? Until he passed on. [1:59:50] But... [1:59:51] And a lot of analysis too, like just... [1:59:54] Long conversations with friends in high school about what does mama say, mama saw, mama pusa mean? Mama pusa, yeah. Whatever that, whatever that, what do they mean? To me, to me, to me.

[2:00:07] That genius... [2:00:09] Like... [2:00:10] not just deserves, [2:00:12] but it requires special real examination. But Ezra did that with Prince and we're never going to see that either. Right. But look, once again, I think that we're out of the era of biopics. If we think, what are the best biopics? Rey was a great biopic, right? [2:00:27] I actually, I kind of like the Queen one. I watched it again. Okay. Okay. [2:00:32] And why is it good? Because in the last 25 minutes, it just is the Live Aid show, which I could watch on YouTube, but it was really fun to watch as the movie. Usually it's the performances that make it. [2:00:43] Outside of music biopics, you want to relive the music and you want to see how people embody the character. But like when I think about movies like Malcolm X, like X. [2:00:51] with Spike Lee, obviously different. But [2:00:54] That's a guy that's a cultural deity to me. [2:00:57] The movie does not deify him at all. [2:00:59] The Johnny Cash movie doesn't deify him. That one I think is one of the best ones. Coal Miner's Daughter is really good. These movies are about people who have genius. [2:01:09] But usually they work the best when it's people who have genius but also have a flaw or two flaws. Have a flaw or have a relationship that doesn't work or marry the wrong person, fall in love the wrong way or whatever. Something that's humanized. Tina Turner one was good too. Right. That one was phenomenal. Yeah. [2:01:28] That is probably... That might be the best one, actually. That's the best music biopic that I can remember. It's phenomenal. But it had a villain. [2:01:35] had a villain. This one has a villain. Joe Jackson is the villain. Yeah, he seems. Joe Jackson. Not a great guy. But even in this movie, it's made by his family and you can tell, you can feel the conflict in this movie. Yeah.

[2:01:48] The state makes the movie. [2:01:49] They're telling this story. You can feel them holding back. [2:01:54] Well, it was heavily reported they had to change... [2:01:57] Just about everything about the movie. Right. As they're making. But even in this version. Like, okay. You think Miles Tower is like, hey, Miles, I heard you have a new movie out. Yeah, well. [2:02:07] Yeah, I guess. Filmed it a long time ago. I'm just saying, man. [2:02:12] Like when you do it, commit. [2:02:15] Like, you know, blood on the dance floor. Show how hard it was. Show the road he had to climb. We agree, but this will be the number one when it ends up on Amazon or wherever. This will be the number one rental for like five straight weeks. I'm probably going to see it again. Yeah. [2:02:31] I'm probably going to see it again just because like. I can't wait till the seventh time you see it when you talk yourself into it. I'm probably going to see it again. Do you know why? Do you really know why? Higher learning? No. [2:02:40] I missed Michael Jackson. [2:02:42] I missed them. [2:02:44] You guys... [2:02:46] I'm just a regular person. So you guys get mad, whatever. I missed Michael Jackson. You missed the genius. I missed him. I had missed him. This was the secret of the last dance with Michael Jordan. [2:02:55] It's like, you know what? I really miss this guy. Yep. [2:02:58] that's why the biggest documentary right now that's sitting there if it was done correctly is the Kobe doc but it'll never happen because I think his wife just will never let it happen [2:03:08] the way it could happen. But I think that would have the same impact. So many people love Kobe, [2:03:13] that if they did that correctly, it would be the same thing. You're like, you know, I'm going to watch that a fifth time. I really miss this guy. Yeah. And...

[2:03:21] More to the point with Michael Jackson. [2:03:24] I missed... [2:03:26] the version of Michael Jackson that existed [2:03:31] Before I had to consider any of the others. 80s Michael Jackson. I miss that guy. I miss just being able to have. I miss the feeling of unbridled joy. [2:03:40] That exists with me being dumb and not knowing. [2:03:44] And like, just not, I'm that that's super Hogan. Another one. Hulk Hogan. Like I used to, I used to, I used to rip the shirt. You were a Hulkamaniac. I was a Hulkamaniac. Everyone was a Hulkamaniac. He probably wouldn't have liked you. No, he was a. He would not have liked you. He would not have liked me at all. He would not have liked me. He would have said it or he would have liked me until I tried to take his daughter out. [2:04:07] Then he would have flipped out. I see what you mean about, my wife says this all the time, she'll be watching some... [2:04:14] movie or TV show that she's seen 1700 times and she always like [2:04:18] I miss my friends. Yeah. [2:04:20] Devil Wears Prada. I miss my friends. I'm going to hang out with them again. The Michael Jackson experience, same thing. I'm definitely going to see it. I won't see it in the theater. [2:04:28] But I'm going to, when it's out on rental, I'm going to rent it. No, I should go see it in the theater. You think? Yeah, go see it in the theater. [2:04:35] Everyone... [2:04:37] that had any interest in the movie because the reviews have been brutal. I have to keep it real. The reviews have been hilarious. People are furious. They really hated it. But at the same time, the people that feel super connected to Michael Jackson are going right into defense mode. I'm sure some of those people would be mad at me. I'm encouraging people to go see the movie in the theater because I think I saw it in IMAX. I think it plays best in the theater because you want to be a part of the concert experiences and things like that. But yeah,

[2:05:07] serious attempt at trying to tell a real story about somebody as consequential and as important as it is. So what's your Roger Ebert? Four stars. How many did you go? One and a half. One and a half? Okay. One and a half. Alright Van Lathan, good to see you. Peace. Alright, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to McShay and Mensch. [2:05:23] Thanks to Van. [2:05:24] Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. [2:05:26] I'm going to be back on this podcast. [2:05:30] On Thursday night, after the NBA playoff games, we're going to be recording. I think Rob Mahoney is going to join me. Don't forget about Sean Fantasy's newsletter or Jordan Kahn's book or the Gata or the Rewatchables Kindergarten Cop, which is up, or Ghostbusters, which is coming next Monday. And I will see you on Thursday. [2:06:00] Feel everything. [2:06:05] I'm sorry. [2:06:07] So. [2:06:10] Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt-in required bonus issued as nominal drawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook.famble.com. Gave them a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call [redacted government id] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland.

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