#2374 - Ben van Kerkwyk

[00:00] Joe Rogan podcast check it out the Joe Rogan experience train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day Ben so excited to talk to you man I have been so looking forward to this [00:16] Since I saw your video on the labyrinths in Egypt, [00:20] Spoiler alert, there appears to be a 40-meter-long metallic tic-tac-shaped object. [00:30] How deep into the ground? It's in the central atrium, which we'll get into what that is, but somewhere in the realm of 60, 70 meters. So, man, what's that in feet? Like 200 feet, 150 to 180 feet down, something like that. So for anybody who's interested, what is the name of that video that you put out? I think it's the ancient structure that's said to be greater than the pyramids. I try to tease it a little bit, but it's on my channel. Well, it was a good tease. You got me. Thank you. [01:00] I remember I was in the gym while I was watching it, and I literally stopped working out. I was like, okay, I've got to pause this. This is not something that I can consume while I'm working out. I need to really pay attention to this because it's so wild. Yeah. [01:11] Yeah, and I honestly, I'm grateful for how that video took off. For me, it took off way bigger than ones that I've done in the past. I talk about the labyrinth in the past, and it's a much longer video. And I was really glad to get the chance to dive into these details because I've been wanting to revisit the labyrinth for a long time. However, there's just been recently a bunch of new data that came up about things that happened a decade or two ago, or inside the last decade, that really changed that picture.

[01:41] It was things like the Merlin Burrows scans that – [01:44] correlated other scans and also reported on, yeah, there seems to be a metallic object down there. And this isn't... [01:50] You know, this isn't sort of crazy emerging science. This is a legitimate company that is using technology that's been well established in defense and in the U.K. defense. It came out of the U.K. military as a technology that's been more or less proven. So and the guy that Tim Akers, rest in peace, unfortunately, he's since passed. But he you know what he said about this object, like he's he is a credible guy to say this. [02:20] Thank you. [02:20] it's not stone it's metal it's not unlike other metal that he's seen although he couldn't classify what exact type of metal it is but he said yeah there is a in this central atrium because the labyrinth has multiple levels and it's almost like you imagine yourself standing in a shopping mall and and you have that central atrium where you can see all these levels and it's like this big central chamber that connects to these multiple levels that's open it's at least 40 meters long it's really tall and in the center of it is what's [02:47] it's more than 40 because it contains this single sort of 40 piece, 40 meter long [02:52] object that's sitting in there so how did you find out about the labyrinth like this is something that has been talked about for a long time thousands of years yeah but no one it's not in any like traditional archaeology books it's not it is is it yeah yeah no it is so the labyrinth is kind of this is the other part that drew that drew me to it uh is that it isn't something that's

[03:22] heard of this before. It's literally a structure that was... [03:25] written about extensively over hundreds of years in antiquity, [03:29] by authors like Herodotus, Diodorus Siculus, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, Polonius Mellor. Like there's all of these writers of antiquity, and you're talking about time frames from like 500 BC up to the first century AD, had visited it, and they'd written about it and talked about it, and they gave it this legend. [03:46] Guys like Herodotus said that it surpasses the pyramids in grandeur. And then you have... Yeah, so this is from Herodotus' histories in the 5th century BC. And he says, for this I saw myself and I found it greater than words can say... [04:00] For if one should put together and reckon up all the buildings and all of the great works produced by the Hellenians, the Greeks... [04:05] they would prove to be inferior in labor and expense to this labyrinth. [04:09] So he's saying that all of the temples of the Greeks, of ancient Greece, you've been there, you've seen the Acropolis, and just if you added them all up... [04:18] the labour to produce them would be inferior in what it would take to just make this one [04:22] thing in Egypt, the labyrinth. That is underground. That's underground, right. How do conventional archaeologists approach this? Do they discuss this at all? Yes, they do. It's been discussed. What happened was, so you had, we always kind of knew where it was. So you have the classical authors of antiquity, which coincides with what you might call the Ptolemaic period of ancient Egypt. It's a transition from... [04:47] like dynastic Egypt into becoming essentially a Roman province, like an imperial province of Rome.

[04:54] And that runs you up to about, you know, 400, 500 AD. And then sort of, you know, civilization, we have the Dark Ages, sort of have Roman Empire collapses, and... [05:02] And it's not until, again, you get to the Renaissance and you have artists and other authors are looking at these historical accounts and they're talking about it, they're drawing it. Some of the depictions you see from the labyrinth are in that. And then, again, not until the emergence of what I would call modern archaeology in the 18th century. So guys like Carl Lepsius in the 1700s started to look at these accounts and... [05:24] go and survey the place where they said it was. So Herodotus and his authors, I selected the quotes here to just – there's a lot more that they say about it. But one of the things they talk about is they kind of give descriptions of where it is. They say it's near what was called Lake Moiris. [05:39] And it's near a city that was the temple of the crocodiles, Crocodilopolis, or ancient Asano is the other name for it. And we know where that is. And Lake Moiris sort of somewhat still exists. It's much smaller now, but it's in this region called the Fayum of Egypt. So if you have a look at Egypt on a map… [05:56] You can imagine it's desert, and you have from north to south, you have this green line of the Nile. [06:01] traces it down but on the left side you look at there's this leaf-shaped depression that's all green it's called the fayum it's a depression which used to flood with the nile today they use it for agriculture and it's right at that neck of the fayum where it connects up to the nile valley and he also described it they also described the pyramid that's at the site because there is the pyramid to aminemhat the third on that site so they give us all these descriptors and everyone kind of agreed yeah so it's at this place called hawara

[06:27] Where I've been to several times, there's still a pyramid there and there's these great fields of sand and little open-air libraries with chunks of stone. [06:36] And what happened was that Carl Lepsius went there and he said, well, I've discovered the ruins of like a Roman town that's built on the surface. There's nothing... [06:43] crazy about it. Flinders Petrie was the guy who kind of got the closest. Now Petrie went there in the late 1800s and early 1900s. [06:51] and he was excavating, he dug down, [06:54] So [06:55] Seven or eight meters. He got down and he found this massive stone slab of beton or plaster that was huge, like a thousand feet long. Like it was – he sort of traced the edges of it. And he's like – [07:06] I'm standing on the foundation of... [07:08] of the labyrinth. So what he said is like, it's all gone. Like it's basically, Petrie said, it's been quarried [07:14] This place has been a source of stone for literally millennia. So it's gone. So pretty much everyone since then in archaeology, Egyptology, is like, and if you look on Wikipedia, they'll tell you, oh, it's gone. It was destroyed. It was quarried away. Petri destroyed. [07:28] says, you know, I'm standing on the foundation of it, the bottom layer, and that's it. There's nothing here. And so that's always been kind of the position of... [07:36] Orthodox Egyptology, look in the textbooks, that's where it is. [07:39] That's all changed because there's been... [07:41] a whole bunch of different now scientific [07:44] expeditions there. This is where it gets into some intrigue because the Matahar expedition, the Korra University expedition, [07:51] I mean these happened. Their results have come out since, but they were covered up at the time. They were suppressed. So the first guy to – What year was this? 2008 was the Matahar expedition. They were covered up.

[08:02] Yes. Yeah. So what is our boy? Zahi? Yeah, it is. Sorry. It was. And again, not my words. This is the words of Louis de Cordier, who was he's a Belgian artist and entrepreneur who who funded and drove the Matterhar expedition. He did it in conjunction with the Supreme Council of Antiquities, which at the time was helmed by Zahi Huas. [08:22] Also with the NRIG, which is the National Research Institute for, like, [08:27] It's basically subsurface study, so that's those guys dragging that box around. So they used a whole bunch of different techniques to... [08:34] Look at these areas around that pyramid at the site of Huara, things like ground penetrating radar, geomagnetism, very low frequency, like seismic tomography, electrical resistivity tomography. There's a bunch of different techniques that are well established. [08:48] Known science, this isn't like the Khafreksgan stuff, where you can debate the merits of the technology. This is established technology. And they found the labyrinth. And what he found was, is that, yes, so what Lepsia said about the ruins of a Roman or Greek or Persian town with mud bricks and stuff, yep, that's there in the first few meters. You go down, then you hit the water table. [09:09] This summer, the Cup is taking over the U.S., and only DraftKings has you covered every step of the way. Follow every group stage upset, every knockout round thriller, every stoppage time moment that flips the whole tournament. Sweat all the big matches you love in real time with a seamless experience built for the world's biggest stage. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app. Yes, that means you in Illinois.

[09:39] with code rogan spend five bucks to get 200 in rewards within 21 days that's code rogan in partnership with draft kings the crown is yours if you or someone you know has a gambling problem crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 1-800-GAMBLER 21 and over illinois only eligibility restrictions apply bonus bets expire seven days after issuance for additional terms and responsible gaming resources cdkng.co slash audio limited time offer [10:07] This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, Traeger is a game changer. This isn't just a grill. It's the ultimate way to cook outdoors, delivering unbeatable wood-fired flavor thanks to the all-natural hardwood pellets that fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake. That's it. Just wood and fire and flavor. And what's truly wild is how easy it is. [10:37] handle the rest. Grilled steaks, smoked ribs, even baked pizza, all on one grill. If you're into fire, flavor, and doing things right, check out Traeger Grills. [10:49] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know –

[11:15] I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier and isn't getting more time. [11:45] to get best friends something every dog owner wants the answer to that is [11:50] is yes, obviously. So try the Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. [11:58] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. The issue on this site is the water table. So the water is at like five meters below the surface. [12:12] And under that is the slab that Petrie found. [12:15] So like six, seven metres is at that huge slab that Petrie found that he thought was the foundation. And then below that. [12:22] Petrie didn't dig deep enough. Below that, we can find... [12:26] essentially a labyrinthian structure of granite and very, very dense rocks and walls and like a maze-like structure that has walls that are meters thick. There's another great slide in there that's the green and it's the actual... [12:40] VLF, right, that's it there. So, yeah, so this is eight metres with VLF sounding, so you can see, like, this labyrinthine structure of these walls and all of these lines and walls. These are like granite. And the scale of this, it's 100 metres wide.

[12:54] vertically by 150 meters. 100 meters tall? Well, no, so... Vertically? No, no, so the y-axis, I guess, of this, so we're looking down in the ground here, but you've got to look at the scale, like across the top, that's 150 meters, right? So... [13:08] I mean... [13:08] What, 450 feet? So these are big walls. These are big chambers and big walls. For people at home, it's like a football field. [13:15] Yeah, it's a football field. Well, it's more. I mean, 100 meters. In Australia, it's 100 meters is the football field. I don't know how big. [13:22] Yeah, well, it's 100 yards. What is the difference between 100 yards and 100 meters? 100 yards is a little less. [13:28] little less so 150 and this is only a section of the labyrinth they scan two sections and [13:34] The labyrinth itself is said to be much, much larger than this. So they found... Much larger than that? Oh, that's huge. Yeah, no, it extends... What is the overall structure? It's like 1,000 feet at least. [13:46] Wow. Like three, four, five times that size. I mean, you have to go back to the... [13:52] We have some better indication with the more modern space-based scans now, but when they did the geophysical, like the ground-penetrating radar scans, so they scanned two areas. That was the bigger one, like in front of the pyramid. Then they did another one on the other side of the canal that runs through the site today, and they found it on both sides. Yeah. [14:11] That's the difference between what we say about the labyrinth, what the textbooks will tell you about the labyrinth, it not being there and it being destroyed. No, we've actually – now there's been the Matahar expedition, confirmed it was there.

[14:25] And so what happened, this was interesting, and I have, I think, reasoning for why this happened, but it was covered up. And these are the words like Louis de Cordier said. [14:36] He eventually got sick of waiting because what happens in Egypt, anything you do, whether it's you're an academic institution or you're an individual or a group that's funding some sort of expedition. You work with the Council of Antiquities today. It's the Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities. But they essentially – it takes years to get access. And then once you do that, they control release of information. So that's always part of the deal, right? It's that Egypt gets to do the announcing if and when they choose. [15:06] in the past that they then accepted later. [15:09] Yeah, a great example is... [15:10] Honestly, the Scan Pyramids project. So they got ahead of themselves a little bit. This is the muon detection, the cosmic ray detection stuff. They've been running that experiment for years at Giza in the Great Pyramid. And every time I go in there, there's always different sets of equipment at different places on it. [15:27] But these muon detectors, they have them under the ground and in the Grand Gallery, and it just takes years to collect data. Occasionally, these cosmic particles, they'll pick one up, and you're able to detect voids. They can somehow tell the difference between it traveling through solid matter versus a void. It takes years to build up a resolute picture. But once they did, they said, oh, okay, so we've discovered that big void in the pyramid. But they'd also discovered the small void at the main entrance.

[15:57] like above, you go in down here at the Alma Moons tunnel, but at the top where the descending passage actually exits the pyramid, the original entrance, there's this big chevron blocks, and behind that's that chamber. So you remember a few years ago they made a big fuss, but... [16:11] And as an example, like when the ScanPyramids guys on their own initiative announced that we've made these discoveries, I mean, they... [16:18] Zahi basically came out and said, this is bullshit, this doesn't exist, there's nothing there, and if there is something there, we knew about it already. [16:27] And you go on a couple of years, and now it's time to do the press releases and to roll out the footage, and he's standing at the... [16:35] at the podium making the announcement and showing that he's doing it like he has to yeah yeah fascinating situation over there with him uh yes i i did a video i just released it a few days ago that got into some even more intrigue about stuff that's happened at geezer in the [16:50] in the Giza Plateau in the 1990s, which we can get into that too. But so, yeah, what happened with the Madajar expedition and the labyrinth was that [17:00] 2008 and 9, they finished their on-site work. They're ready to release the data. They put on a very small public lecture at Ghent University in Belgium. No one really attended it. And then they got told to start, and again, in the words of Louis de Cordier, because he waited like two or three years, and then he put this out there. [17:16] He said that he was told to cease any and all discussion or release of information from the Matterha project and him and his team members were threatened with national security sanctions. [17:26] Oy. From Egypt, which means that...

[17:28] I think at the low, low, like if you come to Egypt, we'll arrest you, and if not, maybe we'll come and get you. I don't know. It's national security sanctions. Isn't there a way to sort of massage that situation and to talk to Zahe and say, listen, you can be the guy who found this. [17:45] That would have been the case. I think that was a given if it had been released. I actually think in the case. So it's funny. I kind of don't really blame him. [17:54] So I think this was a political decision, not a – people say, oh, it's hiding the truth and whatever. Yeah, okay, that's happening. There's new data. There's an amazing, amazing find that could change the world. In my opinion, honestly, the labyrinth is – [18:09] the biggest archaeological discovery of the millennium. When we get into what that structure is and how big it is and the way it's reported in antiquity, there's nothing bigger than that. [18:16] Herodotus says it surpasses the pyramids. It's like finding... [18:19] more like a Giza plateau somewhere. Under the ground. Under the ground. Like you can't, I just think it would be the biggest discovery of the millennium, which is part of the problem. Because I think, unfortunately, in Egypt, and this is just my... [18:32] intuition in my sort of read of the situation what's happened is that the reality is is the groundwater level is rising right so it's it's kind of [18:41] attacking that part of the site, at least the higher levels of the labyrinth for sure are suffering in this salty groundwater, right? It is going to slowly erode because that groundwater has come way up. We know it's come way up because Flinders Petrie, [18:52] back in the late 18th, early 19th century, actually got into under the pyramid. And you can't – today, if you go to that pyramid, there is a passage you can go down. You can go down a few steps and just throw a pebble. It's just water and debris and mud. So this water table has risen slowly over – No, since the 1960s, since they built the dam.

[19:11] So it's the high dam. So what happened, this is the problem, right? So you've got all these factors... [19:18] It's where it is. So it's Hawa to the neck to the foam. Now, Egypt... [19:21] I love Egypt. I go to Egypt. [19:23] a couple of times a year, every year, and fantastic place. But they are food poor in terms of they're the net biggest importer of wheat. They need all the agriculture they can get. The Foyum is a huge agricultural area. There's a huge irrigation canal called the Barwabi Canal that's been cut in there in the 1840s. Same guy who built the Suez Canal made it, cuts it in there. So you've got... [19:45] This situation of like, all right, we've got all this agriculture happening. We've got farmers' water rights. [19:51] messing with this and it happens to be running through this ancient site that could be the biggest discovery of our time. [19:57] And it's happening because we build a dam. [20:00] on the Nile. And what happened with the high dam in the 60s, there's a low dam the British built in like 1901, 1902, then they actually partnered with the Soviet Union to build this high dam. There's actually still a monument to Egyptian Soviet Union friendship at the dam, it's pretty cool. [20:16] But when they built that high dam, it essentially stops that yearly cycle of inundation of the Nile. So everyone, you know, we always talk about the Nile flooding, right? Every year that rains in Africa in the south, you get this huge... [20:29] that comes up the Nile and it floods out and you get this deposit of black mud and real fertile ground and they would use that to farm. And they built the dam... [20:40] you get rid of that yearly cycle, right? And what happens, people, it seems counterintuitive because people are like, well,

[20:46] It's less water in the novel. [20:48] No, what the dam did was eliminate the nine-month dry season. So you had the three-month wet season, but then you don't have that nine-month dry season now, so you have essentially more water for more time in the Nile, which is having this effect of rising the water table. So you combine that with the size of Hawara and the project, the scope of the project to try and remediate and save or excavate, start working at the labyrinth. I mean, you're talking like millions and millions. [21:18] to solve on an area that size to try and get the water out [21:22] divert the farmer's water, deal with all of those problems. You know, and then... So I think the options Zahi might have been left with here is like, well... [21:30] It's either going to cost us an absolute bomb to try and do this for like, we don't know what sort of gain. It'll probably be a decade before that place is suitable for tourism. There's not much to see there even now. [21:42] Or we basically say we've discovered it, but we're not going to do anything about it because it's too expensive and you're going to face a lot of international criticism for that. So I think that the decision was likely made, in my opinion, complete speculation that it's just easy to brush this under the table. This never happened. We never discovered this. [21:57] . [21:57] this doesn't exist, let's just go on selling tickets on the Giza Plateau and [22:01] pumping water out to the volume for agriculture. God. This episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter. The hiring process can be absurdly time consuming. Like when you're looking for a new doctor, you spend hours searching. When you finally feel like you found the right one, it turns out they're not accepting new patients. The same thing happens when you're hiring. You scan through hundreds of resumes. You find one you like, only discover they aren't actively looking for a job. Well,

[22:31] Your search looks a little less frustrating now thanks to ZipRecruiter. And bonus, you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. ZipRecruiter has added new tools and features to help speed up the hiring process and save you valuable time. They can easily connect you with qualified candidates in minutes. They also have a wide pool of talent to choose from, and it's continuously growing. [23:01] so you can reach more potential hires. Use ZipRecruiter and save time hiring. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And if you go to ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan right now, you can try it for free. Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. How short-sighted. [23:31] say gallons of water. No, dollars. I mean, I think the project, the remediation project at Hawara would not be, it's not a simple thing. In fact, they did do, there was another expedition. [23:42] After the Matahar expedition in 2009, Kaira University along with a Polish university went out there to try and figure out... [23:50] what is the deal with the groundwater? Where's it coming from? [23:53] what direction, they were doing geological test pits and all these boreholes to figure out the water situation [24:00] According to them,

[24:03] That information was also covered up because they also did ground penetrating radar surveys, also confirmed the labyrinth. The guy who was in charge of that in Kyra University was actually put in jail. [24:12] Bye. [24:13] Again, this is on their report when the information finally came out in 2017. He lost his job, obviously, as part of it. [24:19] So they covered that up too, but they had tried to... Put him in jail for what? [24:23] I guess for working on the site... [24:25] Like, I don't know. I don't know the reason. It's on their report, though. That's what they say, is that he was jailed. [24:32] Because he allegedly... [24:35] halted. [24:36] the project and then put the guy in jail if this is what they say on their on on the report from [24:41] that uh expeditional that that that work which came out like a decade after they'd done it and i dig it up on the internet i'm like well this is interesting because their results are interesting but they even after their work their conclusion was well the water's a very complicated problem it's coming from a couple different directions northeast is the shallows like it's coming in from this way but it's also coming from another direction uh [25:03] They'd have to dig a lot more test holes in a wider area to really figure it out. And I think you'd have to start digging like remediation wells, put in pumps and just try and pump that down. If not, canal and trench that whole thing out like a massive site. And then you can start to worry about, all right, we're going to get some dirt out and start to excavate. Could it be done without interrupting the farmers? Probably. Yeah, I mean, I think we could do it. I think that you can divert and move the Barwabi Canal out of the way if you had to. [25:33] Holler at Jeff Bezos. Someone with some deep pockets. Don't you want to know? I want to know. The crazy thing is, too, according to the

[25:44] Because the story doesn't end there. Like when you get into the modern space-based scans... [25:48] Merlin Burrows and the Geoscan stuff. And I know that also I've met the guys from the Khafre project. They are going to scan that site. We talked to them about it recently at the Cosmic Summit. And then [25:59] uh... [26:00] I think what they're saying so far is that the lower levels, because this thing goes down – [26:06] like I said, to nearly 100 metres. There's reported levels down to 300 feet under the ground, and it seems like they might be free of water. So it's just like shallow groundwater, and once you get into the bedrock and it's not a porous stone or whatever's underneath just the... [26:23] The top-level sediment, it seems like it can't... You know, Tim Akers said it looks like it's free of water, so the very bottom layer's... [26:31] seem to be free of it. So the actual labyrinth, very bottom layers. The labyrinth is multiple levels, at least. But is it possible that they could somehow or another from the side dig a tunnel below everything and below the water? Yeah, you'd have to dig a deep tunnel. I mean, that's also an option. If you actually believe and you go with these scans, you know where that atrium is, we could probably try and get down there and just line a tunnel somehow and get down. That would be epic if we did that in our lifetime. I would love to see it like that. [27:00] It would be incredible. It seems like a terrible travesty if they don't. I agree, which is the reason I made that video in the first place. I wanted to draw attention to the labyrinth because it's just, I think it is like the biggest opportunity for us. In terms of massive discoveries in the ancient world, I can't think of anything that's bigger than that. I know the Khafre scan stuff is super interesting and the claims are wild and it's, but this is like known about, like this has been talked about and then it's been confirmed with multiple scans. You had...

[27:30] You had Madahar Expedition, you had Korra University, I think it was Roeclaw, I'm butchering that, the Polish University. [27:40] geoscan team which was Klaus Donner, a friend of his who runs this German geoscan space-based satellite thing. [27:49] mathematical statistical they kind of use it to determine the elemental composition of stars is the best explanation i have however they have a track record of being able to find things like water and oil and gold under the ground so they've been using that as a company for like people to go basically survey and then go dig and they've done three or four of these and they're okay this is where you said it was they scanned the labyrinth they were the first space-based scan to come out and talk about it then you had merlin burrows which is this ex-uk military technology that's [28:19] similar in technique to the cuff ray scan guys. So they use synthetic aperture radar or Doppler tomography. [28:25] these guys are using like high frequency orbital imaging with seismic data. So it's very similar in the way they're in. Essentially, the description I was told is it's like imagine dropping – [28:38] pebbles into a container of water and if you could instantly freeze that container and lift it out and shine a light from underneath it when you look at it on the top [28:46] You can see those ripples in three dimensions, but you're looking at it on a 2D scan kind of thing, and you can interpret them to show you the topography of whatever's... [28:56] in that three-dimensional space. It's something similar to that. Isn't technology fucking awesome? Dude, it is. It's so awesome. It's wild. It's so awesome that they just have the ability to do that and look at that. Beyond the calf race stuff, which I don't want to get disappointed. So I look at that like, hmm, it's too great. It's too amazing. It's too spectacular. It's a huge claim. And if it's true, oh, boy, does that change everything about everything.

[29:26] camp of want to believe trust me i mean i'm sure you are but i'm not but i don't i mean i'm i was skeptical initially when it came out i've talked i've since i've since certainly come around on the tech on the promise of the technology i my my [29:39] skepticism probably still exists in in the the layer between the scans as i've seen them and then the interpretations of the results the 3d exactly yeah the the what their interpretations of it are a little weird it's because like you don't really have a crystal clear view of what this thing is and it's like spiral yeah you're making it look like it's some sort of a tesla coil or whatever it is like giant cubes with these four tunnels yeah i i look at [30:04] We'll see. And I want to get into the OSIRIS shaft because that's another thing that I just recently put a video out about these other scans that have happened in the 90s that have since kind of been confirmed by the KuffRex scan team work. But, yeah, at the labyrinth at least… [30:21] The interesting thing to me that happened with these two wildly different techniques, right? So you have... [30:26] You have the geoscan, which is the statistical mathematical approach, space-based still, but then you have the Merlin Burrows, which is a similar... [30:33] take technique. [30:34] to the Kuff Ray Scan Group and it was used, I mean just so, this is what Tim Akers would tell you, it was used to detect submarines. They would look at like surface patterns on the water [30:43] And they were using it to basically track submarines under the water. So it's origins, at least in the military, as far as I know. It's like the non-classified part of it is what he said. At least reported to have said, I should say. Are there ancient artistic depictions? Yeah. I mean, not ancient, but certainly Renaissance periods. And it's...

[31:02] I think some of it's symbolic, but we do get a lot of descriptions from those authors. So, for example, Herodotus... [31:09] talks about it being [31:10] you know, 1,500 rooms on one level. He said there's two levels. He saw one level. He wasn't allowed to go to the lower level. [31:18] He said that there's 3,000 rooms in total, and not just rooms, but also courts, massive open rooms. [31:25] courts uh these are like herodotus didn't have access not to the bottom level according to him interesting but deodora siculus did like that these guys talk about no siculus said that you needed a guy you would get lost down there for days if you didn't have a guy who knew his way around [31:39] And then you have similar accounts from Pliny the Elder. And, again, I think once you get – [31:47] accounts coming from multiple people over the span of centuries that are from different civilizations, both Roman and Greek, and they're correlating. It's like this is pretty reliable data at this point. And certainly in history or in archaeology, that's your measure for like, all right, there's a grain of truth in this, given that we've got the same thing coming from these different accounts that are essentially different civilizations that visited the same place. [32:08] And what they say is astonishing. All of them talk about there being hundreds if not thousands of rooms and twisting chambers and then also giant open courts that might have 40 columns to a side. [32:23] and all of it being done [32:25] with just spectacular craftsmanship. Yeah, this is Deodorus Siculus, first century BC, talking about that, you know, in respect of carving and other works of craftsmanship, they left no room for their successes to surpass them. He's saying that this is phenomenal work

[32:40] and in the sacred enclosure one found a temple surrounded by columns forty to each side [32:46] and this building had a roof made of a single stone. [32:50] carved with panels and richly adorned with excellent paintings. So 40 to a side, that's 80. [32:55] And how was this even lit? [32:58] What, that's always a good question? That's a... [33:00] Core question when you get into any of these subterranean spaces, like the Serapium, it's always, there's no soot. Right. [33:06] We don't know. The answer is we don't know. It wasn't with flame. I don't think it was with flame. And then you had – Go back to Strabo's depictions. In addition to these things, there is the edifice of the labyrinth, which is a building quite equal to the pyramids, a great palace made of many palaces. For such is the number of – how's that word? Peristyle. Peristyle courts, which lie contiguous with one another. [33:36] many in number, and have paths running through one another which twist and turn, so that no one can enter or leave any court without a guide. [33:45] Yeah. [33:45] So... [33:46] He... [33:47] You had Siculus' account of one of those courts being 80 columns, like 42 a side, and there was 12 of them, at least 12 of them in there. [33:56] Wow. Yeah, it's absolutely crazy. You have 3,000 rooms, 12 gigantic courts. Diodorus talks about the roof being made of a single stone. I very much doubt that, but what I think he's describing is the craftsmanship that you see in those real megalithic buildings in Egypt where you can't see the joints.

[34:26] to tradition isn't that interesting yes that predates the pyramids yeah by a long way yeah he's allegedly allegedly right well if you go with the orthodox data the pyramids sure it's he says that you know so essentially 3600 bc that it was built according to the tradition at the time 3600 years so with the conventional dating of the pyramids that's more than a thousand years earlier about a thousand years yeah a little less maybe and the conventional dating is like [34:56] It doesn't quite match the conventional dating. It's a little earlier than that. What is the carbon dating from pieces in between the stones? So they got some mortar in the carbon dating. And what is that? [35:07] With the date. So I believe it's like a wide range, but it's like several hundred years, like 200 years prior to what they would say is the time of Khufu, of Cheops, the ruler in the fourth dynasty, certainly on the Great Pyramid at least. And what is the room for error when they do carbon data? Well, it depends on the samples, and there's a lot of specifics, but it could be plus, minus, 20, 30, 50, 100 years. It depends. [35:37] than that so that they're pretty firm that the date is earlier so it gets this is um it's kind of a critic i mean i think there's a bunch of people that have talked about the fact that the archaeology egyptologists don't really reference that date because it kind of messes up their timeline a little bit of course it's not thousands of years it's hundreds of years so the the explanation tends to be well it was old wood it's like the ash that gets mixed into the mortar as the source for the carbon and they say well maybe they just burnt really old trees that's very convenient right it becomes convenient yeah well all of it's convenient which is which gets really

[36:07] weird because we know that they did some enhancements to the pyramid like they refurbished some things exactly and so that's the problem is like would you refurbished what and how long was it there before you refurbished it? [36:21] Indeed. Look, I think... [36:24] I don't... [36:24] I don't discount the carbon dating. I think what you can say from the carbon dating... [36:30] firmly is that it shows that these pyramids were being worked on. If you can't – I don't think you can make the jump to say this is when they were built – [36:39] you have to infer and say that I think this is when they were certainly being worked on in that period. So I think it's possible that dynastic Egyptians could have finished the pyramids. They may not have been entirely pyramids originally. I think there's a strong chance that there were multiple phases of construction over a long time for them to end up being what they are now. [37:01] in our time. I think those are all possibilities here because [37:05] It's just the this is the whole when you take a step back and look at the whole picture of ancient Egypt. I mean, just you cannot attribute everything that we see in ancient Egypt to our current understanding of those dynastic Egyptians, their capabilities, their tools, their writings and what we know about them. We know an awful lot about. [37:23] Like they do, we have tools from the ancient Egyptian toolbox. We found them. We have depictions shown on walls of how they did things. They were very good about documenting them. So we have the tools, we have the depictions. We also have lots and lots of artifacts.

[37:38] that match those tools and depictions, right? We've got these what are clearly handmade [37:43] and this is across all the categories of artifacts from things like stonework, columns, obelisks, [37:50] Oh, sorry, yeah, obelisks and vases, boxes, pyramids even. [37:55] And then you have this other category of artifacts that doesn't match, can't be explained by these tools and techniques. And there's just no depictions on walls of how they made the precision artifacts. There's no… Can you give me an example of these precision artifacts? Of course, yeah, in any category. I have it in that Tale of Two Industries directory, Jamie, on there. It's… [38:16] Game on. Week one starts now, and every touchdown brings you closer to a payout with DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NFL. Every touchdown could hit big. Don't just watch the game when you can win with it. DraftKings Sportsbook brings the unmatched intensity of the NFL straight to your fingertips. [38:46] New customers, this one's for you. Bet just $5 and get $300 in bonus bets instantly. Plus, grab over $200 off NFL Sunday ticket from your YouTube and YouTube TV. Your season starts now. Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app and use the code ROGAN. That's code ROGAN to get $[redacted address] your first bet of $5 or more.

[39:16] NFL Sunday ticket from YouTube and YouTube TV. In partnership with DraftKings, the crown is yours. [39:46] Spets expire 168 hours after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see dkng.co.au. [39:54] The Vases are probably the best example. They're a smoking gun example of it. It's a 3D printed one. Yeah, so these to me, I mean this is why the Vase project was so... [40:06] I mean, to me, quite... [40:08] validating when it came up yeah so he'll thing yeah the schist disc um yeah [40:13] So these are the smoking gun because they connect to everything else and we're learning so much about the precision of these things. However, we could start with... [40:21] statues or boxes or columns, it doesn't really matter. There are two categories across all of these artefacts. [40:28] And the advanced category, again, so you can't really make them with the tools available. [40:32] that the ancient Egyptians were just were we know they were using that we found they don't show the scene there's no scenes of building stone pyramids there's no scenes of them making giant statues like thousand ton statues this is the type of thing that you see on the wall and this is in the tomb of the nobles up in the west bank at luxor and here they're building mud bricks so they're firing mud bricks over the fire there you can see them they're pouring them they're shaping them they're carrying them it's all very relatively primitive and

[40:59] And we know they made mud brick pyramids, they made mud brick ramps, and some of the mud bricks were big and heavy. We know all about this. What you don't see is the... [41:06] is the stone pyramid building, the really massive megalith stuff. The next slide with the vases is a good example. This is what I've been calling the Tale of Two Industries. It's a whole... [41:18] theory that I've been putting together for the last few years. Again, you have a primitive industry that is clearly observably handmade. It lacks precision and symmetry. [41:27] We found the tools. The Egyptians drew the scenes. [41:30] The artifacts match the tools and techniques, and then you have this advanced industry, visibly sophisticated, usually very hard stone is the other characteristic. The primitive stuff is usually softer stone, although not always. [41:43] These artifacts, as we're doing analysis on them, are showing this depth of precision and complexity that's phenomenal. The vases are just – this is where they become a smoking gun to this whole argument, I think. For people that don't know about this stuff, can you just give them some numbers? Sure. [41:57] So, yeah, the Vases go back to pre-dynastic times. There's no debate that these are pre-dynastic. They predate what we would call the dynastic civilization. [42:08] Over the last few years, we've been starting to analyze them. We, the Vase scan team, various groups of people now, have been scanning these with modern technology, LIDAR scanning, like laser scanning, even CT x-ray scanning. And basically, they're coming back with... [42:23] precision in terms of circularity, flatness, centering, [42:28] numbers that very much equate to some of the best...

[42:33] industrial processes that we do today is things like aerospace industry. So where it's really important to be within two or three or four thousandth [42:40] thousandths of an inch. [42:42] of perfection for the parts we make for jet engines or rocket engines. Those are the numbers that we're seeing come back on a lot of these vessels. Not all of them, again. I don't want to say this is true for all of them. It's not. It's true for a lot of them, though. And this is, again, these are levels of precision, [42:58] that are not visible to the naked eye. I mean, you're talking [43:01] Like a sheet of printer paper is like six or seven thousandths of an inch thick. A human hair is two to three or four thousandths thick. And you're seeing sometimes tolerances even lower than that. [43:11] So it's not something you can feel or see or touch, but we see it again and again. And the only way we can achieve those sort of tolerances today is with very advanced machines, [43:20] you know, 3D [43:22] 5-axis mills, really high-precision lathes, CAD, like computer-controlled equipment. The problem with the lathe, though, is the handles on this one. Right. So, yeah, if you get into it, so this is the issue with this. And one of the craziest things about – and this is the OG vase, the original granite vase – [43:38] This is the one that started it all. It's one of the more precise ones. And yeah, you can imagine without the handles, you could lathe it. [43:45] if you're spinning it, but if you had the handles, if you wanted these handles, you would have to leave... [43:50] a bullnose that runs all the way around it and then come back with a different process, a different tool to remove that space that is basically the space between the handles off the body. And you don't see a lack of symmetry in those spaces. Well, precision. So this is the thing. So when we do that today, it's called you basically lose some positional calibration on your tool. So we account for that in the way we do industrial design design.

[44:13] of these sorts of parts. So we know that we're going to lose a little bit of precision when we change tools and process, right? So we account for that, but you don't see that on this. When we did, I went back and we did, we did analysis of this area of the vase body in between the handles and there's no, [44:31] drop in precision relative to the rest of the vessel. So that means one of two things. [44:36] One option is, okay, they could handle that loss of positional calibration better than we can. [44:44] or it wasn't done on a lathe and it was done in what you would call a single pass with a single tool. And the only way you can do that is with a tool with five axes of freedom. So now you're talking about a five-axis CNC mill, like one of those computer-controlled things that – [45:00] can just cut it out in basically one pass but without changing tools and process. With incredibly hard stone. And that's the other challenge with [45:07] This stuff, and there's some samples of the stone there in front of you from vessels. So this is the actual stone? These are actual pieces from vessels. Yeah, they've got a private collector. I've just got to think, like, who made this and how old is this? How old is this? This piece? [45:22] at least 5,000, 6,000 years old. I think it's potentially quite old, and we can get into how old, I think. But... [45:29] So that's the other challenge that is rarely talked about is the material. Like these things are made from granite, diorite, rock crystal. That thing's rock crystal, basically quartz. It feels so hard. It's insanely hard. [45:42] Yeah, all these different... Oh, yeah. It's like I have a granite...

[45:48] Mortar and pestle. [45:49] at home, you know, this big heavy thing. It's like I don't need to protect it from anything. I have to protect my counters from it because it's going to destroy anything it hits. [45:57] And this is so thin. [45:59] So that's, yes, so this is, that's the other, it's translucent, you hold a light up to it. Yeah, I can see it. Even the rock crystal one's translucent. Wow. So that one gets down to about two millimeters thickness just under the lip. Wow. [46:10] Yeah, you put a phone light on it, you see it comes right through it. [46:14] And I mean, so with granite and with diorite and particularly granite, I mean, it's essentially a conglomerate, right? So you have it. It's not a material that's homogeneous. [46:24] So inside of Greenwich you've got silica and Hornblend and mica and all these different quartz and you know. Hence the pattern. [46:31] Hence the pattern, but also almost microscopically, it changes hardness. You know what I mean? So some of that stuff is less hard than other bits. And the way granite takes millions of years in heat and pressure to bond those things together atomically, and that's the stone we get when it pops up out on the bedrock and we mine it. But it just means that when you're machining a material like granite, [46:52] It... [46:53] Your tool tip is going from stuff that's really hard to softer to hard, and it's like you have to account for that, yet we see this – you feel the surface of it. It's phenomenally well polished and finished. I mean, if you were doing this today with a lot of modern tool tips, you'd be ripping chunks of quartz out rather than cutting them. So something that – the actual tool tip that made these things we know is also very refined because this is – [47:13] A very difficult substance to choose to work in. No stone sculptor chooses to work in granite unless that's what the project calls for. There's a reason they use marble.

[47:22] is that it's both much softer and it's homogeneous. Like it's the same material. It doesn't vary and harden as wildly. So making these sort of precision materials, [47:32] things and objects out of stuff like granite and getting it down to two millimeters thick like that other piece near the lip. Yeah, this is crazy. And it's [47:40] There's even examples that get even thinner than that. Flinders Petrie talked about a diorite vessel that was 1 40th of an inch thick. [47:48] He called it the thickness of stout playing card. [47:51] Yeah, this is it here. Wow. Look at the light going through it. That's about two millimeters thick. That one's one of Matt Bell's vases. Probably my favorite. It's typically called the thin walled vase. It's a phenomenal piece. I'm amazed it's actually survived this long because it is. That's one of the rare few delicate ones. You could break that because it's so thin. Because, again, with this type of stone, it gets really brittle. It's like glass, like a cube of glass. Bang that on anything. Thin glass shatters. Same as this stone. [48:21] How do we know that this is pre-dynastic? Well, from where they're found. I mean, they're literally found in pre-dynastic burials. This is why the vases are so... [48:32] important to me. And why I think they're the smoking guns, one of the big reasons, is that... [48:38] They they they're [48:39] uncontrovertibly or incontrovertibly pre-dynastic because they've been found in burials that are 100 pre-dynastic nakata culture nakata too you can go to any museum that has a reasonable collection of these and find them in the pre-dynastic section all over there's no debate like they're found in these burials and they carbon date the burials or they culture date them the reference datum to periods of thousands of years prior to the dynastic egyptian civilization there's

[49:03] There's good evidence that they may even stretch back as far as 12,000 to 14,000 BC that they're in burials that go back that far in like southern Egypt, northern Sudan area. [49:14] Yeah, it's crazy. And a lot of those burials, unfortunately, today are underwater because of the dam that created NASA. [49:22] Either way, I don't... people... [49:24] We'll debate how far back they go. It's just not controversial at all to say that they are pre-dynastic, 100%. And I think the reason is is that they're this size, right? You can bury this with you. If you have it, then you can be buried with it. [49:40] You can't do that with a thousand tonne statue. It stays on the site. [49:43] And then maybe someone down the road writes his name on it, like Ramsey's the second, or somebody carves his name into it, and then we come along thousands of years later and say, [49:52] Ramsey II's name's on that. [49:54] Therefore, [49:55] he must have had it made. I mean, that's essentially one of the core principles of Egypt. They do use the writing primarily as a source, not the only source, but they do. And the vase is what's, [50:08] The problem with even dating them to those pre-dynastic settlements is that there is nothing about those cultures that indicates they had this capability. [50:16] Nakata culture and even the ones like Toshka, these older ones, pretty similar in that you're talking like the burials are often like shallow fetal position graves. [50:25] You find these precision hard stone objects with fishbone combs, [50:31] sticks and stones, very primitive hand-thrown pottery, not even thrown, just hand-formed pottery.

[50:38] No other stonework. You know, I've seen antique steelers that are selling these vases because there is a huge – there's a lot of these in the private market and in private possession because of their size and their availability and how many there were because there's – Are they illegal to possess? No. [50:55] So you could get a hold of one of those legally? Yeah, I know collectors with like 80, 90 of them, 100 of them. What? Oh, yeah. [51:02] Really? Yeah, they're on, they come up for sale. Is that many of them available? I would say today there's... [51:08] easily over 100,000 [51:11] Hard stone vessels, for sure. I mean, they found 50,000 of them in one spot. Like, that's the famous discovery at the Steppe Pyramid. But, yeah, it's crazy. There's a lot. I think there are even more. Like, this was an industry. Like, that's the other... [51:22] key and a lot of these are semi-exotic types of stone too we don't know where the stone came from it's not local [51:28] In a lot of cases, no. Like, there's lapis lazuli artifacts that are pre-dynastic, and there's no known quarry for lapis in Egypt. The closest one's Afghanistan. What? Right. Yeah, well, there's... How far is Afghanistan from Egypt? No, I don't mean... [51:44] Must be. [51:45] It's right over on the other side of the Middle East, I think, isn't it? It's over towards [51:49] Yeah, it's up towards Russia and China. Show that image again, Jimmy. Yeah. That you just pulled up? [51:55] So there's the fire and there's Egypt. [51:58] Let's talk about Service Titan. Over 10,000 contractors already run their businesses on Service Titan. Now they're building an AI trained on real trades workflows. This isn't generic AI. This is AI built specifically for contracting work, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and more. It's booking calls, helping run your back office, and growing your revenue automatically.

[52:28] The trades are about to lead from the front. Service Titan, the AI for the trades. Learn more at servicetitan.ai. This episode is brought to you by OnX Off-Road. Ever wonder how to reach these epic mountain lakes that are tucked away, dispersed campsites? With OnX Off-Road, you'll find legal open trails around you and even better, guided trails mapped by real off-roaders. [52:58] terrain descriptions, and difficulty ratings, so you'll know if your vehicle's capable before you go. Unlike other apps, OnX gives you turn-by-turn directions on the trail, and their new dispersed camping layer shows where you can legally set up camp. You'll also get private land boundaries, public land overlays, and the ability to download maps for offline use so that you're never guessing even when you're off the grid. It's a powerful tool built for serious off-roaders. [53:28] Try OnX Off-Road for 50% off. Go to onxmaps.com slash Joe Rogan. [53:37] so turkey afghanistan over here asbestos over here like on the other side of saudi arabia and iran so you've got to go all the way from iran my god so that's the nearest lapis quarry i mean look there's a this this is not a problem restricted to the vases either there's a box in the osiris shaft which is more the box itself just they say it's what's fourth dynasty it's made from a stone called dacite and again there's no known quarry in egypt for dacite this happens a lot so it's

[54:07] One of the things that freaks me out about the map is when you go out, it looks like it was washed over. [54:12] Oh, 100%. 100%. I've talked a lot with Randall about this. Look at that. Go back out again. [54:18] Look at that below it. [54:19] Yeah, the Sahara. That's exactly what it looks like. It looks washed out. It is. That's what it is. Yeah, but that's crazy. It is. Like, how much water washed that out? And how else would you get... [54:31] what looks exactly like a water washout. [54:34] How else would those features... [54:36] be on the surface. [54:39] Yeah. [54:40] Yeah, I mean some of those are mountains and mountain ranges, but I can tell you in the desert not so much. I mean there are mountains. That just looks like channels. It just looks like an insane amount of water literally washed over the area and smoothed it out. Yeah, I mean there's a massive amount of evidence for giant floods through the Nile Valley as well, not just across the Sahara. [55:03] and finding water lines and flint points and stuff that were indicative of massive floods. This is Hawara. Yeah, this is the labyrinth. [55:10] Wow. So there's the canal. You see that's the canal. I've been talking the Barwabi Canal. It's so crazy that when you get to like sub-Saharan Africa, like how little of that has been explored and how much of that was like insanely green and fertile. Not that long ago. Well, certainly not. Yeah. Thousands of years ago. Well, it's interesting. I just, you know, I did a... [55:33] I did this long video on the erosional features of the Giza Plateau because...

[55:39] Last year, 2024, they released a paper that they, I think some geologists, I can't remember the names, unfortunately, but they talked about the fact that there was all of the valley temples. So these pyramids, you know, all these pyramids that are on what you would call the, I mean, lower Egypt, so Giza, Abu Rwash, Abu Sir, Saqqara, Maidum, they all, the pyramids aren't just a pyramid, it's a pyramid complex. [56:09] It runs down to what they would call a valley temple, a structure that's the end of the causeway. So that's the... [56:15] The well-known valley temple that's next to the Sphinx is the valley temple for the middle pyramid. [56:21] like it's connected by this causeway. And they figured out that during the African humid period, [56:27] which ended thousands of years before dynastic Egypt ever started. [56:30] There was a branch of the River Nile called the Arimat branch that ran exactly where all of these valley temples are. [56:38] So it's like they were – it's almost – I mean, I just look at it and go, this was built – these were built – [56:43] for... [56:44] that water source, because I think it's super... I'm very sceptical about the idea of all of these valley temples, particularly the one that Giza Plateau being used as harbours for like a couple months a year to transport all these blocks from the quarry in Aswan. Again, 600 miles away, right, for all the granite. [57:00] And there's tens of thousands of tons, hundreds of thousands of tons of granite on that plateau that had to be transported. I don't think there's the depth there. I've seen pictures and photographs in early times pre-dam when the Nile flooded. There's not that much water there.

[57:13] However... [57:14] during the African humid period, which ended at the latest 6,000 BC, but stretches back [57:20] thousands and thousands of years before that, that's when the [57:24] Sahara was a savannah you had [57:27] river basins and lakes just like [57:29] like lakes and rivers, you had a much more rainfall situation. [57:34] And it wasn't this flood situation. It wasn't this annual inundation. There was just rainfall and there was enough water in that Nile Valley to support this Arimat branch of the Nile, which was said to be like a mile or two miles wide in some place. So really not like an insignificant waterway. But it was high and it was running and they've traced the path of this Arimat branch. And it turns out all of these valley temples from these pyramid complexes are on its banks. [58:00] And it's not like it's flooding. It's like there all the time. And this period ends and you get the desertification of the Sahara starting around 6,500, 6,000... [58:12] BC and so you know it's not like until [58:16] If you get 5,000, then 4,000, 4,500 BC, 3,000 BC, that's 3,100 BC is kind of when we say the Egyptian civilization started. So it doesn't make sense to me that if they built these valley temples and all these structures – [58:31] in like 2800 BC, I mean, you would build it where the river is. Like the river was way down there at that point. Yeah, and... [58:39] What is their response to this? Well, I put it in my... Does anybody try to debunk it?

[58:45] No, it's a peer-reviewed scientific study. This is what happens with a lot of these papers. You'll see this. It happens in genetics and the DNA studies that have been done too. These other scientists will not really step on the toes of the... [59:01] archaeologists still the historians right they'll they'll present the data but stop from inferring what it could mean for the picture of history got it so they just throw the data out there and go you guys figure it out [59:13] Yeah, pretty much. And they just whoop, hands off. And the archaeologists say, we're not going to touch it. [59:16] Yeah, they ignore it usually. They don't care. It's left to like rogue scholars and idiots like me on YouTube or people that write books to really try and put the pieces together. Thank God there's a YouTube. Dude, I know. I mean, thank God there's a place where a video like yours can get millions of views, where so many people all around the world can watch that and go... [59:35] Wait, what's going on down there? Who really knows? And why do these people, why are they so... [59:43] Sure. Like, why are they so arrogant in their ideas? Because it's very clear that it's not, there's not a, you know, like we know Civil War ended in 1865, right? It's like, it's all written down. Everybody knows people were alive. There's like photographs of the soldiers. We're pretty accurate with that. Yeah. [1:00:07] You get to fucking 6,000 BC, man. You're just guessing. Yeah. [1:00:12] It's a... Yes, the further back you go, the much hazy... You can't tell. Less evidence. There is way less evidence. Yeah, and it's also...

[1:00:21] It scares them because something like that, if you really do find advanced structures that are at 6000 B.C. Before Gobekli Tepe, we didn't even know that that was even possible. Right. And that's that famous conversation that happened with Robert Schock and that really arrogant archaeologist. Machlano. Yes, which is – he's laughing. Like why would you laugh about ancient history first of all? Yeah. What ancient civilizations are – is that guy still alive? [1:00:51] Yeah, show me the pot shirts. He must feel so stupid now. Well, yeah. After Gobekli Tepe. Someone should show him that video and go, why are you laughing? Because this is just human ego. This is human ego on display for the world. You want to be the gatekeepers of this information. You want to be the one person or the person that represents this group of human beings that are the scholars, that have published work, that have taught at universities. And you're the only ones. [1:01:21] of Earth, despite the fact that there's people like yourself and Graham Hancock, who've spent a lot of time [1:01:28] And they're very careful about what they say and spent a lot of time investigating this. And they just want to dismiss those people because they don't have the proper credentials. What are you talking about? I think it's – yes, that's exactly what's happening. I think it – and it is as a result of – [1:01:47] the fact that the conversation is getting out of their hands, right? It's one of the things I admire so much about

[1:01:54] the the the people who started this what we would call archaeological Egyptological space guys like Flinders Petrie you know they're very open about what they didn't know like one of my like Petrie would tell me he talks about the machining marks and you can read between the lines at the wonder at what he's finding he's like I don't get it like I don't we can't do it we don't know how they did it and this is I think because the conversation's happening in those halls of you know the academic halls or the geographical club or whatever these peers doesn't get out and then right [1:02:24] And so that slowly changes with the rise of initially alternative authors, which is best represented by Graham Hancock, a good friend of mine as well. And his books, and they start to gain in popularity. And now these – I guess the people in the academic halls of residence that are typically considered the authority are seeing this conversation get out of hand. And now you get to YouTube where it's – to some extent, I think it is possible to do an end run around what they're saying. [1:02:54] to embrace that the new media space and try and get on podcasts and you know if you read the saa journals and articles the society of american archaeology they're literally writing to themselves saying how can we become more popular in this space and how do we start podcasts and get into it the problem is they're still doing it the same way they are and it's like when cnn journalists get fired from cnn and start a podcast and everybody's like no you're doing cnn outside of cnn that's what they're doing they're doing academia which is like gatekeeping of information [1:03:24] like pejoratives, mocking, really shitty behavior towards anyone who's outside of it, including calling them racist, calling them white supremacists. It's so dumb. It's so dumb because one of the dumbest parts about it is –

[1:03:39] No matter what, [1:03:41] Those are the people that lived in Africa. [1:03:43] So no matter what, no matter what, whoever built that is people that lived in Africa. They were Africans. So shut the fuck up. Like the white supremacy thing makes no sense. [1:03:54] Yeah, it's... I mean... It's Africans! It's Africans. 100... Look, that's the people that were living there. If humans made it, you know, if you're not in the alien camp, which is a bizarre camp, but if you're not in the... I'm in the ancient civilization, incredibly advanced, cataclysmic disaster, wipes them out. Civilization takes a long time to rebuild, finds the remnants of these ancient civilizations, and then sort of claims them over generations. After a thousand years, nobody really knows who fucking built it. You know, and then this is... [1:04:23] This is where I think we find ourselves. That's where I'm at. But [1:04:27] If you're in that camp, you're talking about Africans. So all these shitty things they do just show their hand, just show what they're really all about. What you're really all about is silencing anything that really throws a monkey wrench into everything you've been teaching for decades. Like you've claimed that you're the expert. You've claimed arrogantly that you have all the information when you clearly are wrong. Absolutely. That is what's happening. [1:04:57] from my friend Christopher Dunn quite happily, which is, you know, you wouldn't trust an archaeologist to design the chair he's sitting on, but if it's an ancient chair, you know, [1:05:05] he's going to claim he's the expert on it and this is what happens I had Joseph Wilson on a podcast talk about I had this great quote from him and he said just because some engineer is standing there shining a laser on a vase don't let that

[1:05:19] Don't mistake that for him knowing more about the guy who can read horoglyphs because he can read what they wrote about it and he's the authority on it kind of thing. It's just like you're just dismissing. [1:05:28] all of these other disciplines that I think are required for a... [1:05:33] a true and complete picture of trying to assemble this evidence, right? As you said, there's very little evidence [1:05:38] that [1:05:39] shows us definitively what happened in the dim dark distant past but it's you've got to try and make the case for it as best you can and i think we should try and encompass all of the evidence and one of the disciplines that's missing from that approach is the engineering stuff it's the precision stuff it just gets dismissed out of hand and yeah we just because we're not [1:05:57] the authority figures on that topic, it just, yeah, they ignore it, which is... [1:06:01] I don't know how you can ignore the vases, how you can ignore the statues, the symmetry and the construction of the faces. It's starting to become a problem. They're trying. And even in the past when – [1:06:15] I would guess the mainstream approaches to try and solve, say, some of the machining examples, the tubular drills or the saw cuts. I mean, just when you dig down into them and the answers that you get and the explanations that are offered are just, they don't hold any water. They're kind of, frankly, ridiculous. Well, the issue with the drill bits is the revolutions per minute, right? I mean, the cores. Yeah, well, it's not the revolutions per minute. It's the penetration rate. We don't know. How quickly it does. [1:06:45] into stone. I suspect that it's [1:06:49] that it could have been turning quite slowly, but it's like a 1 in 60 penetration rate is the rate of the spiral groove on the cores that have been analysed, particularly Petrie's core number 7. 1 in 60 meaning? 1 in so for like if you unwind that circular motion to a straight line, 60 inches horizontal travel, 1 inch vertical drop, which is 500 times greater than how we do it today with modern diamond-tipped sores, hole sores, which do turn. Wow.

[1:07:19] 900 RPM, they'll cut through ground slowly, but it cuts, I mean, no doubt. It grinds more so than cutting. But, yeah, unwinding that spiral and looking at that spot, Petrie was first of all like, how is this possible? [1:07:30] His numbers got refined a bit by Chris Dunn, but more or less a 1 in 60 penetration rate. So it's very difficult to explain... [1:07:37] There are multiple cores like this, and this is the... [1:07:40] This is the other element that I think the Vases are showing, is that you have a technological link... [1:07:46] between the vases and these other precision artifacts, the bigger ones that couldn't be buried in these civilizations. That to me suggests that they were made with the same technology. You see the same machining marks, the same tubular drill marks. On that quartz piece, if you look on the bottom, you can see the... [1:08:02] on the inside of it there's no other side. You see the tool mark? [1:08:05] This right here? Yeah. So this is like, that's the tubular drill. So this is, that's a core function of how these vases are made. You would often find. So this is the bottom. The bottom. So they've cored that thing out and then they've snapped it off and polished it down, but they didn't eliminate the full tool mark. And you'll see that in a lot of vases. [1:08:23] These tubular drills were used [1:08:26] with the vases. [1:08:28] as well. But you have no idea of the power source, no idea of what the material was that cut? No. Well... Yeah? So, yeah, the vases have become interesting. One of the [1:08:39] Let me talk about the provenance part first because that's been the one – like – [1:08:43] The pushback on the vase is this is where it's become a problem, is nobody's really been able to...

[1:08:49] Push back on the data, like the scientific and the measurement data that's come out, the precision fact, the geometry. There's a whole bunch in the geometry space that indicates that they are designed. They're not just made. They were designed with mathematical and geometric principles in mind. They show pi. They show phi, the golden ratio, Fibonacci sequence. All this sort of stuff is in them. [1:09:14] No one's pushing back on that. The major pushback on the vessels in the early days of the vase scan project was that, oh, these are modern fakes or something like that. They're not the real deal because they're not coming from museums. They're modern forgeries. How can you say they're real? [1:09:28] So what's happened in the years since, and when I first came on here and talked a little bit about that, that was very much the early days of this project, about two and a half years ago now. [1:09:36] Now, the vase scanner, particularly the Artifact Foundation, Adam Young, who started this whole thing, who owns – he actually – this is a copy of his vase. [1:09:46] They've been in now four museums around the world. We've scanned close to 100 vessels from inside of museums with impeccable provenance. Those results are starting to come out. They're matching. [1:09:57] the results that we've found so far. So the Providence thing is kind of, that's going away. The people that I think chose to fight on the Hill of Providence have died on it now. They are legitimate. And to be fair, you can also find... [1:10:11] vessels in private collection with impeccable provenance, just as you can find a lot of vessels in museums that we have no idea where they came from. [1:10:18] it's a much...

[1:10:20] It's not as clear as just, well, if it's in a museum, we can trust it. And if it's not, we can't. It's not like that. But what else has happened is that there's other – so the project came out and it gained a lot of interest from really talented people around the world. And there's been several of those. One of the guys that I've been working with a fair bit lately over the last couple of years, a guy named Dr. Max Zamilov, who's a physicist. I believe he taught for 10 years. He's a nuclear physicist, taught for 10 years, I think, at Penn State. [1:10:50] company now [1:10:52] And he reached out to me and actually took these fragments to his house and I rolled up to his house in Florida. [1:10:58] Sitting in his living room are two scanning electron microscopes, as you do, who doesn't have two SEMs in their living room? So we started to do things like look at these pieces through a scanning electron microscope to try and find evidence for... [1:11:13] the materials that we use to cut them. So you should, if these were used with a tool, so that the orthodox explanation being, well, it's a copper tube and it's sand or it's some sort of cutting medium and it's spun and ground out, you should find traces of copper or whatever that material was in there. We looked at, we spent days looking at several pieces. [1:11:31] zero, zero copper, like, didn't find any copper, nothing at all. The nice scanning electron microscope, not only do you get the magnification, but [1:11:40] You can focus a beam of electrons onto a particular spot, and that backscatter of electrons, you can then map out the elemental composition of the material. Can I pause you for a second here? Yeah. Are the oldest tools that they found copper?

[1:11:53] Yeah, copper and stone. And what are the dates of the oldest tools? Well, they go back all the way to the old kingdom, 26, 27, 2800 BC. Like, yeah, it was early days. They were smelting. I mean, obviously, the older tools are stone tools, like flint. [1:12:07] I mean, a lot of carving, you can carve stone with harder types of stone. So there was definitely flint and things being used. But there's no evidence, like not up until like the very later periods of the Egyptian civilization, is there any significant evidence for iron and things like that. Like it's pretty much copper and bronze alloys, tin, you know, copper and teenage bronze. So when they analyzed the traces, there's no copper? We didn't find any copper. We didn't find some other stuff, which was very interesting. Well, the most interesting thing we did find was titanium. [1:12:38] What? Titanium and titanium alloys with iron. We found iron, zinc, tin, zinc. [1:12:45] titanium alloys. Yeah, titanium. And it's not... We've... Yes, so... [1:12:51] The term alloy, doesn't that refer to something that has... It's melted, right, that's been put together. Exactly. In fact, titanium as we know it as a metal doesn't exist naturally. So in nature, it's titanium dioxide that is found in rocks. This was not titanium dioxide that we were looking at because you see, again, the SEM gives you the spectrum, right? So you would see oxygen and titanium together. We didn't see that. And in fact... [1:13:17] I have a video on this and it's... [1:13:20] We found a piece, actually, like a small, maybe 20, 30 micron wide piece embedded in...

[1:13:25] one of those grooves. [1:13:27] in a tool tip that looked like an embedded piece it shines up very brightly when you see metals and on this in the sem it's like a bright spot and you can aim it at it and it's just straight titanium and it looked like a small piece of a tool that had been wedged in there and i mean look in the in our modern times i mean i think titanium was discovered even in the late [1:13:46] 1800s, it wasn't used outside of laboratories until the 1930s. [1:13:51] as a material model [1:13:53] But there seems to be evidence that there's some titanium used back here. Has this been published? No. I wouldn't – I know Max is trying to work on that. [1:14:02] It was not a systematic – we spent days, like a couple of days, and it's – we didn't do like a systematic grid search. Like even in one of those pieces, you could spend – it would take you a long time to just map it properly. Right. Like to scan the whole thing, but it's – To play with devil's advocate, would that be evidence of a lack of a chain of custody that perhaps someone was – Potentially. Using titanium to see if they could – This episode is brought to you by Chime. [1:14:32] J.D. Power just ranked them the number one choice for new bank accounts in America. And that's not a small thing. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category that you actually pick yourself.

[1:15:02] Your savings rate, nine times the national average. That's crazy high. Go to chime.com slash Rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for more details. [1:15:28] This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew, the number one brand for better sex. Blue Chew just dropped something crazy. Blue Chew Gold. Blue Chew has made it easy for 5 million men to get hard, but now they've made it easier to get horny too. Blue Chew Gold gets your brain and body on the same page fast. Other options just help blood flow, but gold combines [1:15:58] and two, boost arousal and intimacy. So for a good time, go to BlueChew.com. And we've got a special deal for our listeners right now. When you buy two months of Blue Chew Gold, you get the third free with promo code ROGAN. You also receive an additional 10% off plus free overnight shipping on your first order. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information. Blue Chew is number one for a reason. [1:16:28] Got it? Yes, it could be contamination. So we looked for signs of contamination. This didn't seem like contamination. In fact, at the end of...

[1:16:39] At the end of when we'd finished scanning, we actually took, he had some titanium dust, like we put some on... [1:16:46] on one of the pieces and put it in to see what that would look like. Just these like a tiny, like just like literally a matchstick and just [1:16:52] the tiniest end and just tapped it and then looked at that under the microscope to look at what contaminant. It just didn't seem to be contamination. You can't rule it out. [1:17:00] There's – we found other types of metals as well. So it didn't seem to be contamination. What is the reason why it didn't seem to be that? Well, because it didn't – so we looked at what contamination would look like. What is the difference? Well, so it's like smaller specks where you can actually see the material – [1:17:14] The one piece that we found, it seemed to be embedded in the stone. Like it was as if something like this tiniest fragment of the tool, of some sort of, imagine it was a tool tip, wedged itself in the stone and then it stayed there. But it was only like 20 or 30 microns wide, which is pretty big under a scanning electron microscope. [1:17:31] um, [1:17:32] But that was the only piece of titanium? No, we found other specs of it. And then occasionally it would be titanium and iron. [1:17:38] mixed together. And then we also found specs of like zinc, zircon and tin, and then various combinations. Honestly, I think it's grounds for more investigation. [1:17:51] I think the most significant thing was the no copper thing. That's like, all right, no copper. That to me was the biggest takeaway. The fact that we found some other elements and pieces of what, let's say, questionable provenance. I know these are legitimate pieces from these vessels. Ideally, the best thing, if we could – I'd love to work with the Egyptians to do something like this because I know there are fragments of vessels –

[1:18:14] In the step pyramid, there's hundreds of thousands of them down there still. In fact... [1:18:18] Like the last time we got down to the very bottom level, which is a special permission required to get into the step pyramid, and even then they generally won't let you down to the bottom level. There's another ladder and 30 feet down to the big bottom level. It goes down further, but it hits the water table again. [1:18:34] But in one of these corners in this very bottom level, you're like 150, 200 feet under the step pyramid. [1:18:39] We found a wall... [1:18:41] And it was a collapsed, it must have been a collapsed magazine of these vessels. And this is the place where they found 50,000 of them originally. Like Jean-Philippe Loyer in the 1930s found this huge cache of these vessels there. [1:18:54] And in this wall... [1:18:56] it's an incredible little video i've not published it i mean i do want to talk about it but you could you literally see that it's like a wall of dirt of not rock but but dirt and in the wall is like fragments of vessels because it had been a a cache of them that there's something a tunnel had collapsed and it had crushed them so you've got these like pieces of worked granite or diorite or whatever just in the wall so i'd that would be interesting if you could go down there and like [1:19:19] get their permission to say, well, let's sample... [1:19:21] Because you have then – you've basically got it in its original environment from dynastic Egypt and put it in a Ziploc or whatever. Just keep it. Don't mess with it. Right. Clear chain of evidence. Clear chain of evidence and then scan it. So I think it's an interesting observation. God, they found titanium on that. Holy shit. I think the Russian – there's a Russian group that did something similar and they also found metals. I think they found titanium as well. L.A.H., the Laboratory of Alternative History. How was titanium made?

[1:19:47] It's a smelting process from titanium dioxide. I don't know the specifics of it, but you have to take that titanium dioxide and I assume smelt it down or do something like it. Again, it took us up until 1930s to use it just anywhere outside of labs. [1:20:03] So it's super interesting. But I wouldn't even say that's the most interesting thing Max found. So he's a crazy dude, an interesting guy. He's doing fusion experiments in his spare bedroom. He's got like this apparatus surrounded by boxes of borax and boron to stop like cosmic. Oh, I want to live in his neighborhood. Ten foot Tesla car blow. [1:20:25] So he took – so again, this sort of ties back to the tool marks. [1:20:33] is what's my wildest speculation i actually have some now which is based on some evidence in its early days he has published on this on his website but he took precision vases [1:20:44] He took base rock samples of the rock that these were made from, from the place. I actually got him a piece of basalt. [1:20:51] He took non-precision vases and he put them in a germanium detector basically to look at the radioactive and the isotope sort of. [1:20:58] baseline radiation of these pieces and it turns out the precision vases are radioactive. [1:21:06] And he's tested several. Relative to the base rock samples and the non-precision vases, they have two to three times the thorium decay products in them.

[1:21:19] All of them so far. [1:21:21] And in fact, [1:21:22] That piece right there, he said, the quartz piece or the crystal piece has a notable cesium-137 signature in it as well. [1:21:30] So that's an interesting... [1:21:32] nuclear titanium could be i don't know about that but so he's look it's again early days but he's he has published it on his website the findings and he is he's obtaining more equipment to do more testing some more in-depth testing that he will be much more definitive about he did say take some recently to the petrie museum in london to test some of their artifacts but it's a very interesting [1:21:58] Result, this has to have been something that irradiated [1:22:01] these vessels that give them that signature even after however many thousands of years with the half-life again we're comparing it to the base rock samples and the non-precision bases which have they're just like [1:22:11] that's [1:22:11] nothing and they're not dangerous or anything it's just the it's just above a baseline but two to three times so something happened to them and one of his hypotheses which is very interesting is a concept called nuclear machining so he's he actually this is not a new idea it's not something we figured out how to do as a civilization yet we're on that path but you can if you take a [1:22:35] his theory is something like palladium, [1:22:38] or another [1:22:40] like radioactive material that is a strong alpha or beta particle emitter, [1:22:44] that you could put on a tool, it would ablate [1:22:47] either in neutrons or it's blasting electrons or something, it would ablate the stone surface away in such a way that you could carve this stone with ease, kind of like a lightsaber, basically, and it would also leave a signature in the stone. Fuck yeah. And you take it back to that penetration rate of that spiral tube drill. Yeah.

[1:23:07] It's not [1:23:08] All we can say about things like that spiral tube drill and the other... [1:23:11] The other striations and tool marks is, look, it doesn't seem to be the same thing we do to the stone, and it's certainly not primitive. It's not something you can do just by hand. Is anybody the cores? Has anybody tested the radioactive levels of the cores? I think he might have tested the cores when he was there recently. I'll talk to him. I was talking to him this morning. I can ask him about the core. That's a great question because if it was the process, it should show something similar. [1:23:41] process. Look, the other possibility [1:23:45] is, okay, they weren't machined with this method, but these were used... [1:23:48] in some method. The other theory he has that these may have been part of a process for enriching material for some other nuclear use, or they were part of a system that... [1:23:58] that used nuclear material. They had advanced nuclear science somehow or another. That's just too much. [1:24:05] It's... [1:24:06] I mean, it's not too much, but it's too much. It's too crazy. It's so crazy. But also, when you do see some of the sculptures that look 3D printed, and you go, well, okay, [1:24:19] Now, it kind of at least makes a little sense. See, if we knew for sure that there was a cataclysm and a lost civilization, that civilization had achieved some immense... [1:24:32] heights of technological sophistication in a completely different pathway than we've done in modern times. If we knew that for sure.

[1:24:40] Then everything would be so easy. You'd go, okay, well, clearly they were doing something. What were they doing? But instead, we deny that possibility. So by closing off that door, now you're left with nonsense. You're left with sand and copper and it's dumb. I agree. [1:24:58] Yeah, I agree. I think it's... Something fucking crazy happened. Yes. I... I... [1:25:04] Yes. [1:25:05] I think there is – this is – I try to follow the evidence where it leads. That's all we're doing here with – I mean I'm quoting what Max has said about it with this nuclear machining hypothesis. A lot more study needs to happen. The nuclear machining hypothesis, sorry to interrupt you, but if you go a thousand years from now, for sure we're going to have that. [1:25:23] Yeah, that's – yes. I'd like to put the same context in these arguments forward as well. It's like we just don't – to me, the answer is – [1:25:32] We tend to look at the past, and it always has to be this subset of what we know. But it's like if you look at the history of knowledge and technology, give us 50 years, 1,000 years, 50,000 years, you know that there's more out here to the sides that we're going to learn. So that means there are realms of science and technology that we don't know anything about. [1:26:02] how the stone was cut. [1:26:04] I think some of those answers could lay in those realms of the unknown. [1:26:09] open-minded about them and by investigating them with all of our capability we might even end up learning something about them which is what we're doing like the vase scan project we are learning the depths of precision in some of the machining aspects of it and max is starting to learn like okay there's some weird like radioactive characteristics of these things let's let's let's try and look at more and figure out some more i mean we can speculate a bit now and i want

[1:26:39] required to even shore up some of these theories about these possibilities. But the fact remains there are possibilities. Right. And it's also this assumption that there's been a linear path of progression always. But that's not even the case today, right? You can go to ancient sites, whether it is in Mexico or even in Greece, and you see really shitty construction right next to the Parthenon. [1:27:07] Yep. Right. I mean, the Acropolis and the Parthenon is right next to crappy apartment buildings. They're really close. Right. Yeah. That's a decay. That's a you've obviously you can't do. Why didn't you do that? [1:27:19] Do that again. Like, this... [1:27:21] Yeah, it's huge. It's something – there's something weird. There's something weird going on. And this is like – [1:27:27] 2000 years ago where we knew who they were. We know the people we know they did it like amazing precision amazing construction methods incredible art and [1:27:35] Incredible engineering and architecture, right? Yes. [1:27:40] All understandable, but yet more advanced than the techniques utilized in 2025 in the exact same area. [1:27:50] Which is weird, right? So that's without a cataclysm. Right. Well, yeah, it's also a nice criticism of modern architecture, to be fair. I mean, you don't even go back 2,000 years. Just go back to the Gothic era with the churches and the cathedrals. I mean, Jesus, why don't we build like that anymore? Right, right. Good point. So you see a decline, at least in craftsmanship, that can be attributed to a changing of cultures.

[1:28:12] But this assumption that there's always this linear path of progression, and if you go back, they were dumb. You go back far enough, they were dumber. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. And Egypt is the best example. It is. Like, explain that. Yeah, dude, exactly. And it's one of the biggest – if anyone – [1:28:32] It's one of the biggest contradictions about Egypt is exactly – it's the technological progression. I mean you're talking about a dynastic Egyptian civilization at least 3,000 years, right? So 3,000 years. But if you look at it from a technological progression perspective, it's almost like they went backwards the whole time. I mean you have – [1:28:52] You have the emergence all of a sudden of this culture and language, like they're gods. One of the craziest things about ancient Egypt is this emergence of hieroglyphs, just boom, here it is. Here's this complex, extremely complicated language, cultural system, gods and everything pops out of nowhere. It's pretty consistent. It evolves over time. It doesn't change that much. I mean, cuneiform in Samaria, there's a clear progressive path where we can see it being developed. We don't have that. That's not the case for ancient Egypt. [1:29:22] And then it's all of the best stuff is the oldest. It's the biggest stonework, the valley temple, the 2,500 tons of granite in the king's chamber structure that's in the Great Pyramid. The Great Pyramid itself, these things are amongst the very first pyramids ever said to have been built, yet... [1:29:40] progressively as you go forward in time, I mean, they just get to mud brick pyramids. It's almost like you're going backwards. And there's just, you know, technologically speaking, it doesn't seem like they progress very far. So I think there's another interpretation for that data, one that fits the evidence a little better, which is that, yeah, I think they got a kickstart, they got a headstart, they inherited an awful lot of objects. We know for sure these precision objects were around before the ancient Egyptians, they don't match even the cultures that predated

[1:30:10] idea where they got them from. I don't think they made them. We don't know how old they really are. [1:30:16] and I think there's a lot of other artifacts and architecture on these sites that [1:30:19] they match these like technologically speaking there's a link the same tools the same precision we're seeing that yet these are massive artifacts sometimes like a thousand ton statue that you can't bury with you it stays on this side it gets inherited it gets renovated it gets reused eventually you get kings with hubris and arrogance guys like ramses ii that says you know carve my name three inches deep onto that sucker right it's going to be me i want to be part of the gods these are the you know i want to tie myself to the ancients and [1:30:48] The really crazy thing is that doesn't often get admitted is that this is literally what the ancient Egyptians themselves said. [1:30:56] They called themselves a legacy culture. They traced their own history back 40,000 years. [1:31:02] They have a list of kings. They talk about these different eras of time. The Shem Su Ho, the followers of Horus, was this 12,000-year period where these mythical semi-divine beings walked the earth. You can talk about kings and rulers and that. And then before that, you have Zeptepe when the gods themselves walked the earth. And they trace their own history. [1:31:21] way back into those eras. That's the stuff that I brought up with Zahi. And he was like, what is this? He got very mad. It's funny. I'm reading where I'm listening to the Book of Enoch right now. [1:31:36] Yeah, that's some wall shit, too. [1:31:38] Yeah. It's so wild. You're going, what are you saying? Like, gods, the watchers came down and mated with women? Right.

[1:31:49] of Earth and created... Nephilim. Yeah, the Nephilim. Like, what are you saying? Like, what... [1:31:56] What were you trying to say? Thousands of years ago when they wrote this down, and the version I think that we're getting this from is from the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is from Qumran. So – [1:32:11] How long did they write it down before that? How long did they discuss this? How long ago did this happen? And what are you saying? What were they trying to record? [1:32:23] Yeah. And why does it match up with what they're saying in Egypt, the gods walking amongst us? [1:32:29] right yeah it's it's it goes to some wild places squirrely i know it gets so squirrely and that's where you get into the alien camp well that 40 40 meter tic-tac shaped metallic objects yeah what is that thing well [1:32:43] And what kind of metal? We don't know. Imagine if it's titanium. Could be. He said it didn't match any signature that he'd seen before. That's crazy in and of itself. It's one of the things I'll remember always about when you were sitting here talking to Bob Lazar, and he said that some of those craft came from archaeological digs. I mean, it's part of his story. There's long been rumors of that type of stuff in... [1:33:05] you know, in under the ground in Egypt. I don't, I'm not saying that's what it is, but this is what, yeah, this is what Tim said about it. That would be amazing. It would be. If there's a UFO down there, all layers converge at a central corridor or avenue, like the atrium of a shopping mall where you can see all floors from one vantage point. My personal interpretation is that this entire hall was constructed to house a centrally positioned freestanding object,

[1:33:30] about 40 meters long. The central object is hard to classify. It appears metallic, not stone or wood. I named it Dippy after the giant Diplodica skeleton in the Hintze Hall of London's... Did I say that right? Yeah, Hintze, I think. Hintze Hall of London's Natural History Museum. It could be anything. Its shape resembles those tic-tac hard mints. It might also be an upright disc or even a colossal shen ring. And what is a shen ring? It's like the cartouche. [1:33:59] You know, that thing around a cartouche? Oh, wow. Big object alone raises profound questions. How did it get there? Why is it there? [1:34:06] A more speculative theory is that it's some kind of portal. Oh, boy. Now we're going full tinfoil. Either interdimensional or interstellar, a Stargate. Its material signature is unlike anything I've seen in my entire career, but it's there, undeniably there. [1:34:24] I'll let the future find out what Dippy is. Tim Akers. Well, he went full Art Bell right there. He did. Interdimensional or interstellar. Stargate. [1:34:34] Hey, look, the Egyptians talk about Stargates. Do they? Go to, where is it? Dendera. [1:34:41] There's actually a couple places. The literal translation, you can read it on the walls. I always show people when we go there. There are two or three depictions of Stargates. That is the literal translation for it, showing a constellation with a gate, and it's a specific constellation a couple of different times. They're all in different constellations. Where can I find that? Where can I see this? It says pictures of Stargates from Dendera Temple. I think it's in the upper rooms. Yeah, it's up where the Zodiac is.

[1:35:08] So that's actually – Dendara is incredible. Like it is a start. [1:35:13] oriented temple. There's massive depictions of the Zodiac. And this is all [1:35:17] redone from older versions of the same temple, but that is the translation of what's on the wall with the constellation and the gate, and it literally translates as Stargate. [1:35:28] That is part of it. I mean, the ceiling is the zodiac. You even have depictions of solar boats going up to the moon at Tendera. Randall loves that temple. I have sent him a lot of footage from that temple. No, it's... [1:35:44] It's actually – you'd have to look up the – [1:35:48] Yeah, just Stargate Glyph, maybe, at Dendera. [1:35:53] Yeah, Glyph, I'll tell you if you see it. [1:36:00] No, I don't see the exact one. But it's literally a cluster of stars that represents a constellation. Oh, we're going to get it, though. This is killing me. [1:36:09] I know. [1:36:10] I probably have it on my hard drive. Do you have it with you? It's on my laptop if you want to see it. Yes. Are your laptops out there? Yeah, yeah. All right, go grab it. We'll pause. You sure? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not on what you gave me? Huh? Not on what you gave me. It's not on that one. I didn't think we'd get into the Stargate. Oh, you got it. I'm going to try and find it. I'll try and find it. Okay. All right. All right. We'll be right back, folks. All right. [1:36:28] This episode is brought to you by Tecovas. All right, guys, if you want boots that are made right, you've got to check out Tecovas. Their Western boots are sturdy and clearly built to last, but really sharp and premium, too. You don't need to break them in either. They're comfortable straight out of the box and great boots for those summer concerts, weddings, work events, whatever. And they're versatile, too. You can wear them with jeans, dress them up or down, whatever you need.

[1:36:58] All the classic leathers like cowhide and goat. But they've got all the exotics, too, for when you want to level up your look. [1:37:06] If you've been thinking about your next pair of boots or, hey, even your first pair, go check out Tecovas in-store or online at tecovas.com. That's T-E-C-O-V-A-S dot com. And right now, get 10% off at tecovas.com slash Rogan when you sign up for email and texts. This episode is brought to you by Manscaped. Wondering what to get your dad on Father's Day? [1:37:34] The beard and dome bundle from Manscaped is a really solid option. I've been using their dome shaver for a while now, and the thing I like about it is how easy it makes everything. You don't have to think about it. It just glides over your head, gets everything clean, no weird patches, no going over the same spot ten times. Honestly, it's so much better than anything. [1:37:54] any of the other brands I've tried. And then there's the Beard Hedger. It's got this zoom wheel with 20 different length settings that's built right in. So if you want to get your dad something he'll actually use, the Beard and Dome bundle for Manscaped is an easy pick. Get 15% off plus free shipping with the code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. That's 15% off plus free shipping [1:38:24] from Trevor Grassi on YouTube. The video is titled Hieroglyphic Proof of Stargate Technology with Mohamed Ibrahim Ravad.

[1:38:33] Mike Rick Secker and Trevor Grassi. [1:38:39] So... [1:38:41] This is what we're looking at. See, it's like there's a glyph. As you can see, the star and there's a gate. Actually, try and find one of the other pictures maybe. The star is the circle. That's what the star is supposed to be. [1:38:51] Yeah, the star on the right. No, no. Oh, the far right. Yeah, there's the hieroglyph. So again, yeah, Stargate. It's the... [1:38:59] You see the gate and then the star, and then I assume that crooked hook or whatever is part of this as well. Oh, I see. So it's the way you translate the hieroglyph. Yes. [1:39:10] Yes, and it's Mohamed Ibrahim, who I know quite well as well. He's very good at translating these glyphs. When I travel in Egypt, we usually go with Professor Mohamed Jabra, who's one of, I would say, top four or five in the world for reading horror glyphs. He can just read whatever's on the wall and tell you about it. He travels with us on these tours. It's phenomenal. He just shows us this. There's probably some better pictures of ones with the actual constellations up at Dendera if they get into... [1:39:36] Yeah, but that one where they were standing next to each other, go back a little... [1:39:40] where was it no back a little yeah yeah so see this is the one i'm talking about you see the stars the stars above the gates so it's literally different these these and with the words they do they relate to specific uh constellations this is in the the top the um what's the zodiac room at uh at dendera where they have a replica of the circular zodiac on the ceiling the french have

[1:40:10] for these constellations. That is bananas. [1:40:14] And what are these constellations supposed to be? I don't know off the top of my head. [1:40:19] We do tell people when we get into it, there is... [1:40:23] Yeah, I could find out, but I don't know off the top of my head. I'm sorry. Click that. That one that you just had there, Jamie. No, no, no, no. Where you just had all... Yeah, right there. [1:40:32] So, [1:40:33] Yeah, more gates. They're similar, again, the gate with the crooked hook and the star gate. That's bananas. Yeah. Yeah. [1:40:42] So when they're referring to a Stargate, are they... [1:40:46] saying in any way what that means. [1:40:50] No. [1:40:51] No, it's – I mean, they would – I mean, most of the interpretations these days would tell you that it's always symbolic. I mean, they do look at like the Osiris and the – [1:41:01] The constellations in the sky is being connected to the Duat or to Nut, like the Duat being this space and Nut the goddess who is the sky and it's all part of that space. [1:41:14] passage from the of the soul going into the realms of the mortal of the immortal that happens after death so this is the you know the symbolic interpretation that we that we that we give it all we say oh this is none of this it's it sort of falls into this category a little bit of like everything is symbolic [1:41:29] everything is ceremonial, nothing is functional, [1:41:33] I, you know, I'm fascinated by these temples because it goes back to something you were saying earlier.

[1:41:40] And I use this analogy to kind of set the stage for it. Imagine, again, imagine if Younger Drys happened to us tomorrow, whatever. I hope Touchwood doesn't. [1:41:48] say it wipes out civilization, but we survive as humans. Within, what, two, three generations, we're sitting around campfires telling stories about... [1:41:58] fucking [1:41:59] these things that were like a black rock and it's just, and you know it's like all plasma TVs but you say look if you get this shiny black rock [1:42:07] you know, you can get answers from the ancestors. You will know everything. You can talk to anything. You can see anything. You can ask it questions. You can ask it questions. And, you know, [1:42:15] Maybe you go and you start... [1:42:17] getting black rocks and making them like this and you start dancing around the fire you start ritualizing this this memory of technology now right [1:42:25] If you take that concept, like say there's a cataclysm and now there's people that remember and they tell these stories, the stories get passed down. Now imagine there's a civilization that comes up and it goes through thousands of years of... [1:42:39] by structuring those legends and stories of technology. That goes through just distortions and representations and symbolism, but it's just twisting all of these stories into this iconography and this complex... [1:42:54] symbolism that we then I think we go to a temple in Egypt that was made in the Ptolemaic era or whatever and it's you see things on the wall I think there's a great way to interpret some of those symbols and some of the paintings to say well is this actually an echo [1:43:08] of something that was functional or is an echo of technology. Like every staff,

[1:43:14] That you see. [1:43:16] Has a tuning fork on the bottom of it. Every single one on these walls, it's always got a tuning fork on it. What's that all about? A tuning fork. Tuning fork, like a little, like a tuning fork. Yeah, all of the staffs with the wass head, it means power. [1:43:29] Like, literally, the interpretation of this symbol is power on top of the stuff, and every single one of them has a tuning fork on the bottom. Can we see an image of that? Yeah, and you can look up... [1:43:38] Any of the temples in Egypt and like the depictions of gods with staffs and they're touching or they're giving like the jed pillar or the ankh, which is jed pillar is stability. The ankh is life, the wass. [1:43:53] So in a lot of cases, these gods are granting kings life, stability, and power, or sometimes just life and power. What are those depictions of these enormous cylindrical things that they're holding that look almost like one of those Indian clubs? Like that one there? That's like the Jed pillar here? Yeah, what the hell is that? That's a great image. That literally is the symbol for stability. [1:44:22] And that thing down is what I was talking about. Oh, the quote-unquote light bulbs, yes, at Dendera Temple. And see, there's a jet pillar there, too, with the hands. So the jet pillar is stabilizing it with its hands. Right. And you're on a boat. You're actually – part of this is on a boat. It looks like some kind of technology. So you know what's crazy about this? So, again, we get down into this. This is in a – [1:44:42] in a crypt at Dendera. You have to like crawl through a hole and get, it's like an inside wall. It's amazing because the Christians and the,

[1:44:49] They didn't get into the crypt, so they couldn't deface the glyphs. A lot of the glyphs are defaced. Look at that guy. He looks like an air traffic controller. He's like a reptilian, too. He's a frog dude with knives. Yeah, what is that, dude? With a tail. Does he have a fucking tail? Yeah, he does. He does look like a giant frog man. Yeah. Wow. So what's crazy about this, there is a whole story about this. It's written on the walls. And again, this is thanks to my friend Yusuf Aewon, who I guide with, and then Professor Jabra, who can interpret this. [1:45:19] video about this soon because what he's saying about this crypt is that there was it tells you on the wall that there was a physical version of that thing in that crypt [1:45:28] He said it was made from mostly gold, and it was the span of a dude with his arms out, like the span of a human wingspan, basically. I was stumbling across something there. They called it Electrum. There was these two – there was a – The metal? They stole these 3.3-ton – [1:45:44] obelisk that were made out of a metal called Electrum. Gold and silver. Yeah, Electrum's gold. So they definitely used gold and silver. A lot of the obelisks had Electrum [1:45:53] Which is great for conductivity. Oh, it's fantastic. Which is really the only good reason to have it other than looking good. Right, yeah. Other than balling. Yeah, other than balling. Which they were balling. Which is going to be a little bit of a sidetrack, but when you're talking about the nuclear stuff, I found... [1:46:10] these stories of the Oklo mine in Gabon, which is a nuclear natural... [1:46:15] Nuclear reactor. Whoa. That is very old. Four billion years old and 100,000 were the oldest nuclear reactor in history. They pulled out a enriched uranium from it. Oh, okay. It's enriching uranium. It's probably... Enriched uranium.

[1:46:30] Yeah, imagine if it's in Africa. So I don't know if that was the only place they've ever found. That makes sense, right? Is there something like that in Afghanistan where this – [1:46:41] stone came from oh the the lapis lazuli and everything else i don't know i mean i i assume that i would be i wouldn't be surprised if that sort of thing is happening somewhere in the in the massive uranium in australia either because that's like one of the world's biggest um uranium deposits i imagine if it's enough mass of you i think it's uranium 238 and they're trying to get no 235 to get to [redacted address] around but if there's enough mass and neutrons hitting each other it might be enriching it somehow i think that's probably what's happening [1:47:11] It's the wrong thing. Let's go back to those hieroglyphs, Jamie. [1:47:14] The lizard guy, the frog guy, whatever that reptilian thing is, that freaks me out. Oh, yeah. [1:47:21] The stuff of nightmares at times, it's kind of weird. Because that's... [1:47:25] You know, one of the things that the weirdest – [1:47:29] The weirdest story is when they start talking about aliens is the different types that visit. Right. And that one of them is a reptilian species that are the most creepy to deal with, which makes sense. I've heard the same thing. It would be. Yeah, I mean, that reptilian browns on Earth. Chickens are assholes. Right. They are. And so are Komodo dragons. And the idea that somehow or another they could eventually reach incredible levels of technological sophistication and intelligence. We kind of rule that out.

[1:47:59] clearly primates that are way dumber than us. [1:48:02] Right. Oh, for sure. So why do we assume that it's only primates that reach an incredible high level of sophistication when we know that crows, which are really fucking close to dinosaurs, are... [1:48:13] Crows. Super smart. Super smart. Like smarter than most kids. Yeah, problem solving smart. Yeah. Yeah, you can't. [1:48:22] Yeah, I don't think you can – you can't put a restrictor on what evolution might produce in any of these. Not at all, especially when intelligence is being exhibited by things that are really close evolutionarily to reptiles. Yes, absolutely. [1:48:35] Yeah, and that would just be, yeah, you get to that, like, just lack of empathy, just that reptilian brain. It's just aggression, and, like, everything that's not us is the enemy. That's the mind fuck of smart dinosaurs. [1:48:44] Oh, yeah. I mean, that was in Jurassic Park, right? The Raptors, they were super smart. Yeah, they were smart, which, you know, makes sense. [1:48:51] yeah it's that whole pack yeah the instinct but the idea that there's that we were visited by intelligent reptiles is fucking bananas [1:49:00] I put, look, with the aliens, I don't often address it, but I put it firmly in the realm of, like... [1:49:07] possible like it's just i don't i think when you you look at the vastness of space and the length of time the fact that we've you know we're just we're just this crazy you could there could have massive civilizations galactically could have risen and fallen a million years ago and we just weren't part of it and that's literally a blink of the eye in these in those sort of time frames we just it's it's not surprising this the fermi paradox right like how come we haven't got like firm proof or anything even though people will say we have but it's like

[1:49:36] Yes, it's the length of time. Like we can rise and fall that span of a million years. It's just nothing on those timescales. [1:49:45] A whole species can rise to massive prominence and then just be nothing but dust at the end of that period of time. And you've got to try and do that across, what, 14 billion years? And even that's in question now because the James Webb telescope is seeing stuff that's supposedly way older than that now? Right. [1:50:00] I mean, we'll see. We're going to find out. Like this three-eye atlas thing. [1:50:03] thing yeah what is that super weird well javi loeb is convinced that it's a ufo all right but that's what he does [1:50:08] He did with that other one, Omanuma. Oumuamua. Oumuamua. So that one was a little odd. That was weird. The weirdest thing about Oumuamua seems to be its path after it turned around the sun and accelerated. Like that was the standard model of physics said it shouldn't have done that, and it seems to have exhibited sort of motion that was not – [1:50:32] what we predicted it would do. That's as much as we can. A significant amount of acceleration? It accelerated. It was... Noticable? Yeah, it accelerated. But like to a factor of what? Well, not that one thing. It was only a few percent, but it was not what should have happened according to... [1:50:45] the calculations that astronomers and the, I guess, the orbital dynamics people have done. That's what I understand was the most, obviously, its shape and size. There was something about its reflective properties as well, right? [1:50:56] Well, yeah, I mean, just because it was so long and narrow and it was tumbling, that's what caused it to – we would catch, like, the long side of it, which the brightness would increase. So we had this oscillating brightness on it, and then it just – it passed through the system, and it's going, whatever, 87 kilometers per second or whatever it was, huge velocity, enough to escape –

[1:51:15] the you know the gravity of the Sun but it it accelerated where it's just what I understand it did it accelerated where it shouldn't have then there was another interstellar artifact that came in that was pretty much a comet behaved like a comet it had a tail it was off-gassing water it's just an interstellar ball of rock and ice is what they say that was it didn't get a lot of attention now this three-eye atlas thing is much larger it's traveling much faster apparently than the previous two but it's also not behaving like a comet it has this aura of the [1:51:43] light that it's emitting around it for some reason it i saw a report that said it you're almost seeing a metallic like smelting signatures off it i don't know how much credence i can give it but we'll find out like it has a it has a it's going too fast to stop in our system unless it dramatically uh alters its velocity but it's it's i mean it'll come it'll pop out we'll lose it on the other side of the sun but then we should see it again on the way out so we'll know [1:52:10] one way or the other, if it actually is going to [1:52:12] if it changes behaviour. I mean, what's he put it? Harvey Lowe put it like 40, 60 or something. Yeah. [1:52:17] artificial to natural but really do you in it I'm [1:52:21] It's so funny. I'm into Warhammer 40K in a big way, and it's just like I'm like, okay, we're going to be joining the Imperium here soon, boys. All hailey omnisire. That thing might be a Mechanicus vessel. I don't know. If that's how they travel, I'd be very disappointed. They just shoot through the sky? It takes months? [1:52:37] Well, if it slows down. I know, but I'm looking for portals. I'm looking for an advanced civilization that visits us. I don't want the advanced Vikings. Right. I want the advanced scientists from the 21st century. You're just opening up the portal. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I do. The ones who come fast on a burning spaceship, they're the dangerous ones.

[1:52:58] Because they're probably the warlike conquerors, the ones who are going to rob us of our minerals and force us into slavery. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. That seems like if that's how you're rocking it, you're still doing it the way we do it, where you have something thrusting you insanely fast through the cosmos. Yeah, I get it. Do you know the whole dark forest thing? [1:53:21] uh thing like the the dark forest theory no what's that about so it's this came out of uh it was the three body problem uh [1:53:28] Great series of books by a Chinese author. Amazing Netflix show. Great show. The books are phenomenal too. And it's just – but it's this idea that, look, we shouldn't be making noise. It's like imagine you're a hunter in a dark forest. So it's just you're out there. You know there might be other things out there. And it's this – [1:53:46] like a philosophical engagement of like, what do you, what should you do? Should you start light a fire and make a whole bunch of noise in the dark forest? That's full of, you know, it's full of predators. [1:53:54] You don't know where they are. They don't know where you are. [1:53:57] What's your behavior? What should you do? Should you see another predator? [1:54:00] uh what should you should you be friendly what's the risk to you to do it and these could be like you could be there with a bar and arrow this guy could have a tank this other guy could have a like a mass some other energy weapon whatever you you don't there's massive differences in capability and scale and pretty much every scenario works out to like the what you should do is just be quiet and if you see something you should eliminate the threat that's kind of the the way it goes in

[1:54:30] of [1:54:31] you should basically eliminate that threat if you can do so safely. And you apply that to kind of the galaxy and where – I mean, to some extent, I feel like we're the equivalent of like a baby in a cot that's screaming around a roaring fire because we – and there's, you know, leopards out there. Right. And, you know, because we're just like sending these signals out into space for 100-something years now. [1:54:54] And we just hope, hey, we're friendly, please. Well, you have to hope that something is so evolved that it's gotten past war and it's gotten past the way we behave. So we're hoping and assuming that Space Daddy. Space Brothers. Yeah, that Space Daddy, Space Brothers will be benevolent and wise beyond our imagination and that they will come here and want to take care of us and give us information and hook us up. [1:55:18] That's my response. I have this discussion. I've had this discussion a few times. And my response to a lot of that is, well. [1:55:24] We can take nature. [1:55:26] What happens when we take – let's look at the apex predator, whether it's in the sea, in the air, on the land. [1:55:32] Apex predators don't tolerate competition. [1:55:35] They... [1:55:36] They don't suffer any attacks. They don't, I mean, we don't treat, we don't, we just dominate. Like, you just, if it's in your way, it's inconvenient, you kill it. If it has something you want, we take it. If those bees have honey, we take it. Like, it's just, there's no, we're not, like, helping them, you know. We're not, like, trying to teach the dolphins how to talk. Like, there's still parts of the world where we're just eating them, you know. Like, there's, I don't know. [1:56:00] Nature suggests that that apex predator, but maybe, maybe we're just, I think this is the other element that you're saying,

[1:56:06] maybe evolution leads you past those primal... [1:56:09] nature at some point. The territorial primate instincts that we exhibit, like hopefully one day. Because clearly we're on a pathway to that, right? We're clearly much kinder now. [1:56:21] Yeah. At least locally. [1:56:23] You know, if you don't live in Gaza... [1:56:25] You know what I'm saying? Like if you're in the middle of a war zone, you're like, what are you talking about? This is as bad as it's ever been all throughout human history. It's the same behavior exhibited over and over and over again. What we want is aliens that are a million years more advanced. We don't want aliens that are a thousand years more advanced. Got it. Because they might be just like us, but way better. That's what we don't. Right. Because as soon as we start going into the cosmos, we venture into the cosmos in 20 years, we're going to be the same animal. [1:56:51] Right. We're not going to be significantly different unless we integrate with technology and remove the ego and emotions. Yeah. Mushrooms. Well, no, emotions and stuff. Maybe mushrooms help us get that. Emotions, all the things, the human reward systems that exist that we, you know, that we currently struggle with. [1:57:21] that we kill, all the different things that we do on Earth, factory farming. Now imagine, why would we care about these lizard people that live, you know... [1:57:30] In caves on some fucking stupid planet. You know, we would probably kidnap them. We'd kill them. We'd pickle them. We'd bring them back home. We'd freeze them. Got gold in them caves? Yeah. What have they got? Right. Look at what Columbus did when they arrived.

[1:57:44] Yeah. And took the natives and had them get gold. And if they didn't, they cut their arms off. Yeah. Horrific, terrifying things. So imagine – there's no evidence that aliens are currently doing that, which is the promising thing. Right. [1:57:59] even the abductions. [1:58:01] Although I'm sure they're terrifying if they're true. They seem rather benign. Like, in fact, in the Travis Walton case, do you know that that one? [1:58:09] It's one of the most famous ones. [1:58:11] Not off the top of my head. Real simple. 1970s, he's a logger. He's working with a group of guys. They see a ship. He runs toward it. He gets hit with a beam of energy, gets knocked back unconscious. His friends flee. They come back. They're yelling at each other. We've got to go back. We've got to get him. They go back. He's gone. All four of them get investigated for murder. They tell the story. No one believes them. They all pass polygraph tests. Five days later, he shows up. [1:58:41] has this fucking insane story. But the story was that they took him aboard the craft and healed him and communicated with him and that there was a bunch of different types of these beings. And then he has been telling the exact same story ever since the 1970s. So, but relatively benign compared to what we would do. For sure. You know, like we fucking, you know, we shoot elephants. It turns into Avatar. Yeah. Think about the horrible things that we do right now on Earth. [1:59:10] no I agree yeah and it's it's [1:59:13] Something that I always say, there's a great quote from Christopher Hitchens, which is, you know, we're just not the end of that evolutionary chain. You know, we're just our current, the current version of humanity, our frontal lobes are too big, our adrenaline, sorry, our frontal lobes are too small, our adrenaline glands are too big, our thumb four-finger opposition isn't all it's cracked up to be. And we love violence. We love violence. We love violence. Our national sport is dudes who are enormous running at each other. Full speed.

[1:59:41] True. [1:59:43] and kicking each other yeah i mean it's kind of yeah i mean it's kind of crazy we're so and then we're also involved in multiple wars simultaneously at least yeah proxy yeah proxy wars it's at least human beings are involved in a significant amount of war always yeah it's never it's this is literally the status quo throughout history i mean it's just right we've always been at war with each other uh i mean i will i still do i mean personally maintain the the idea that it is that's still [2:00:13] alive, technologically speaking. But also, I mean, obviously we're much more aware of conflict around the world. [2:00:20] on a percentage scale of what it's been like in the past, it's actually far less than it has been, like even though it's terrible when it happens. But we're in an era where there's actually less – [2:00:30] of that going on and hopefully that can continue. I actually genuinely think that... [2:00:35] It's one of the reasons why this whole investigation into the past is important to me. I haven't really talked about it in videos or put it down. It's part of the book I'm writing, for sure. It's a big part because it's not just some benign investigation into the past. I genuinely think it could have a significant impact on our future because – [2:00:54] And that concept, you talked about it, of like this linear progression, right? I mean, in general, we get taught in school, okay, we were Stone Age dudes, we were in caves. [2:01:04] civilization happened, and how many thousands of years later, here we are. This is the only, it's like this is the only way that... [2:01:10] an advanced civilization can happen is is on this path don't worry about it's almost like it's preordained just worry about next election cycle next quality result whatever right then and we just don't think about it i do this is this concept i call it i think it's a fundamental pillar of what it means to be a human being today it's it's in everybody's mind to some degree like all right stone age to us we're advanced and

[2:01:30] This is the only way it happens. [2:01:32] I do think that if you can change that at that fundamental level to this cyclical... [2:01:37] version that is an oscillation between civilization and cataclysm. [2:01:42] And this idea that, okay, we've actually risen in the past. We've become relatively high technology. We've become civilized. And it happened. It would have been different to us. But we fell. We fell again. And we're somewhere on this oscillation and this circular motion between civilization and cataclysm. And on a long enough time scale... [2:02:02] We know it's going to happen again. Yes. Right. And if you can change that, if you could change that. [2:02:07] fundamental concept in people. That's what we teach people in schools. Okay, so we're rising again, we're at this crazy point in time where our technology is super advanced, we can solve some of these problems, but we know on this timescale, if we don't do something about it, we might end up like our ancestors did. I genuinely think that stands a chance of changing some of our behavior and some of our, a little less money on tanks and guns, a little bit more money on space exploration, make solving the longer term problems a bit more of a priority. And, [2:02:36] It's altruistic and it's like a crazy goal. I know it's altruistic as all hell, but it's just – I think there's precedent for it too, though. I mean whether you agree with it or not. [2:02:48] I mean, it doesn't matter, but the fact is that the term climate change has changed our behavior over the last 25 years, right? It's changed – if you think about what's happened with that concept and that movement, it changes investment decisions. It changes our interactions with each other, with the planet. It's changed our behavior in the way we think about stuff.

[2:03:08] It's like this has crept into our zeitgeist as a species and it's changed our behavior. [2:03:14] So I look at some of this stuff in the past as it not just being some harmless investigation into things. I think it actually getting to the root cause of what's happened in the past actually could help us in our future. I think it's an important – it's what drives, I think, my interest in it in a lot of ways too. There's another piece of an example – another example rather of how primitive we are that we still – [2:03:34] The actual climate is political. [2:03:37] That's bananas. Oh, yeah. Pollution is political. Yeah. [2:03:42] Yes. Well, I mean, if you disagree, I mean, I always find it crazy that if you even question any of some of the like official narrative about this stuff, the first thing you've got to do is make sure you decry and say, no, no, no, pollution bad, pollution bad. Yeah. Just because I think that some of. [2:03:55] The science might be off. I'm not saying, like, let's pollute the oceans. Like, no, no, let's be stewards. Yeah. But it's also the... [2:04:01] amount of time that we've polluted the oceans in is spectacular. [2:04:06] What we've done just in terms of the depopulation of the ocean. Oh, yeah. [2:04:11] That's nuts. Like 90 plus percent of all big fish are gone? Yeah. [2:04:16] In a short amount of time. [2:04:18] Like a couple hundred years of like hardcore fishing. And we fished out the ocean, man. Just about. That's nuts. Not only that, we polluted the fuck out of it to the point where you're not even supposed to eat it every day. [2:04:30] Right, which is... [2:04:31] That's crazy. Oh, I agree. That's crazy. If you eat sushi every day, people don't recommend it. On a beer bottle. On the bottom of the Mariana Trench. What?

[2:04:42] That's crazy. Man. [2:04:45] Yeah, that's how gross we are. [2:04:48] Somebody was over there and they chucked one overboard. Yeah, it looks like it. Was it Hanukkah? It looks pretty recent, right? He's got the fucking label on it. Yeah. [2:04:55] Right. The label hasn't even eroded. The challenge is deep. If it's that recent, like, why isn't it covered in sediment? You know what I mean? Yeah. The surface covers things up and moves over time. It probably won't be there forever. [2:05:08] It probably won't be sitting on the surface like that. I think it's still floating around. I don't think it's still floating around. Oh, wow. Yeah, maybe. Oh, right, right, right. It's still moving around down there. Oh, it's – wow. It should sink, I would imagine. Unless there's some sort of a downward or upward current. Yeah. Scientists find beer bottle at the deepest point of the ocean. That's so – 6.7 miles, 35,000 feet below the surface. That is – How does it not implode, but that sub does? [2:05:32] Boy, you know it. [2:05:33] Yeah. Okay. There you go. Right. Yeah. Wouldn't last long if there was a cap on it, that's for sure. But yeah. Yeah, I don't want to go down there. I'm like, fuck all that. Yeah. Yeah. I'd rather watch a video. Not only that, they were watching a video. That's what's even crazier. Yeah. You go all the way down and you're watching a screen. Yeah. It's not like there's a window. You can't have a fucking window. It's too deep. No, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Like one little, or just if there's one just giant thick thing at the front. You kind of like. Imagine the freak out of being at the bottom. Yeah. [2:06:01] James Cameron nice. I mean, he went down there. Yeah. Not for me. He went there by himself. I know he did. It's crazy. In that, yeah, in that he did it right. I guess. [2:06:11] If you're going to do it. Yeah, you're right. Why is he doing that? James, we need you. I want four feet of titanium around me, like in a sphere. Yeah, we need you to make movies. Maybe not a carbon fiber tube. Yeah. Yeah. Well, especially not one that the engineer said wasn't really designed for those depths. Yeah, that cracked. Did you ever watch that documentary? It's, dude, they're putting that thing, they do the scale model, and they're testing it under pressure, and they're all standing around in a room and it just goes, bang! Like, it's just, and every test they did, it went bang and blew.

[2:06:41] successful trips with that. They did a bunch. The scariest part is when you're in the footage with it and you can hear it popping. It's literally the carbon fiber strands snapping. [2:06:55] Oh, it's terrible. It's terrifying. Imagine being one of those people that successfully made that journey and the nightmares that you have every day. Like the one right before. Because you barely missed it. Yeah, the one right before. Barely missed getting instantaneously destroyed. [2:07:13] I'm sure you've seen the animation, the computer recreation of what it would look like. Yeah, implosion. Yeah, you turn to blood cells. [2:07:20] Yeah, just splatter. [2:07:22] Yeah, you wouldn't have said that it happens faster than the time it would take for you to even register that it happened, like for your senses to register in your brain that it happened. It's over. The fucking pressure. [2:07:33] The pressure. Yeah. Just the fact that we're that weird that we choose to do that, that we have technology. We're like, let's see. Yeah. Let's go. [2:07:43] Yeah. It's so funny the way they skirted the... [2:07:46] I mean, he signed everyone up as, like, basically expedition team members. They were – that's how they got around. I'm not selling seats for this. Like, they're coming on. They all had a technical role, supposedly, and it was like I'm not – he was getting around the regulations and the safety regulations. But, yeah, no interest in that sort of pressure. I mean, I dive, but – [2:08:05] Diving is swimming. [2:08:08] Pretty much. It's just like hardcore swimming. The simulation of the implosion is crazy. Yeah.

[2:08:15] I haven't seen this. [2:08:17] It said that it would have happened in 20 milliseconds, and it takes like 150 milliseconds for your brain to feel pain. That's – yeah, that's – yeah, no, thank you. [2:08:29] God. [2:08:29] Yeah. [2:08:30] Oh my god. Why does this freak me out so much? [2:08:35] It's because a guy went on with his son. [2:08:38] Yeah, it's a terrible story. I mean, it's just... Why? I wish I was friends with that guy. I'd be like, dude, no. It's not the place I'd want to explore. Like, there is some stuff off Cuba. They say that they reckon pyramids, it's kilometers deep in the ocean. I've seen that. I've seen, well, I've seen internet videos. Yeah, like imaging. Yeah. But I did dive. We were in Alexandria. I dived on the lighthouse. Yeah. [2:09:01] So there's – and actually there was a news article just the other day about the Egyptians were pulling like more stuff out of the water there at Heraklion and at the lighthouse of Alexandria. Quite an interesting story. And we were in Alexandria diving the Mediterranean on the Egyptian side. [2:09:16] I mean, it's amazing. There's massive columns and massive megalithic blocks in the water from when the lighthouse fell down or it collapsed. There was an earthquake. And so you're in the water, but you're diving over megalithic blocks like these and huge columns. And it has a history that stretches back too, right? [2:09:37] The megalithic stuff is what's associated with the very earliest periods of building. All the stuff that happened later is typically not that big. But yeah, this is actually – That's what's nuts. That's what's nuts is that the older you go, the bigger the stones are.

[2:09:52] Well, and what's funny is when we looked into the erosion at places like the Giza Plateau, you – [2:09:58] It's... [2:09:59] You have two or three feet. Everybody knows about the Sphinx enclosure erosion. [2:10:05] But you look at places like the pyramid temple of the Middle Pyramid, there's some of the blocks on the Great Pyramid, the casing stones that are there. [2:10:12] that we can see now that they've taken the boat museum away uh and up and down the causeway there is there is [2:10:19] Limestone blocks with up to two feet... [2:10:22] of erosion like it's these ways i think i have a have a directory on that on that um drive with the erosion on it and it's you have you have to juxtapose that against all the other stuff they say is fourth dynasty right so right next to the valley temple there is another structure that's built from small limestone blocks [2:10:39] It doesn't have any erosion, not like the Valley Temple does. The Western Cemetery that's behind the Great Pyramid is beautifully made. It's smaller limestone blocks. It's apparently older. So here's a good example. This is the mortuary or the pyramid temple. So you can see where the face of that block originally was, but it's been eroded in... [2:10:58] up to two feet in places. There's huge amounts of erosion that you can find in a lot of places at the Giza Plateau, yet at the same time you have what are said to be contemporary structures [2:11:10] said to have been built roughly in the same time. Sometimes they say they're even older, [2:11:15] that have just no erosion at all, made from the same stone. [2:11:18] made allegedly by the same people. And what force do they attribute that erosion to? Well, it's wind and sand, right? That's what they will say. Look, this is just regular weathering.

[2:11:29] And here's the crazy thing about these structures. This was also cased in granite. These are the inside blocks. So this structure was fully cased in four feet thick granite blocks. And that was stolen and quarried? That were taken. But it would have protected this stone from erosion for however many thousands of years. You find there's another picture in here of the... That's so there. See, this is said to... That picture I just showed with the heavy erosion, that's where the arrow is at the Pyramid Temple. [2:11:58] No, no, back to that one. Yep. So that deep erosions at that pyramid temple, this one wall to the right, they say this is older than that. And this has never been cased in granite. That other stuff was cased in granite. It's megalithic. There's a block in that complex that's 450 tons. [2:12:15] um, [2:12:16] And- [2:12:16] It was cased in granite. Now, there's been studies, right? So we know... [2:12:20] how long it takes to weather limestone. There's been a bunch of studies. The US, the government departments have studied it. They've put limestone blocks on the top of a building in Washington, DC, and a government department has studied it over 11 years. There's endless... [2:12:35] cemeteries with conveniently carved and dated limestone pieces in the form of headstones that you can measure saying okay this was carved and [2:12:44] whatever year this guy died, and as you can measure it, and over time get a sense for what's it take with rain, with wind. We've done studies of, like, all right, we put these blocks in a river, [2:12:55] and we let it wash over like a very highly erosive environment where we've got running water running over the stone and how long it takes to erode. For some of the erosion that you can, if you reference those studies for this type of hard limestone,

[2:13:07] to get two feet [2:13:09] of erosive wear on... [2:13:11] those blocks just with regular wind weathering and this is this is in places that have a lot more rainfall than giza you're talking dates from like 60 to 122 000 years to get that much erosion on it i mean and that's and i think that's in a more erosive environment than what the desert is what so yeah that's that's the neck that's it side by side so you have literally they'll tell you that thing on the right is older this was built by khufu this is supposedly khafra his son [2:13:41] It's completely different. So this is that tailored to industries thing as well, but they attribute all this to the same people. But you can baseline this because it's the same stone. It's at the same elevation level. [2:13:50] It's supposedly the same age. The differences are in the construction. [2:13:54] Like it's megalithic and a lot of this stuff was... [2:13:57] encased in granite. [2:13:59] This is the Sphinx Temple down at the other end of the causeway. Same thing. So all the megalithic stuff that was cased in granite has severe erosion. [2:14:06] yet there's buildings all around it [2:14:08] and up and down the plateau they say are built at the same time [2:14:12] Yet it's smaller blocks, it's not as nice work, and it's not eroded like that. What's the conventional explanation from that discrepancy? They just don't address it. I've not seen anyone – well, I mean, because the argument's always been the Sphinx enclosure, right? Robert Schock, John Anthony West, he talked about the fact that you needed thousands of years of rainfall erosion to get those patterns on the walls. That's where the discussion's been focused. [2:14:36] There was no comparison, mate. It was always like, well, this is...

[2:14:40] This, you know, the geologists and the experts say it's wind and sand, it's water erosion, but then you have the archaeologist and the Mark Lannis say, no, it's wind and sand, wind and sand. [2:14:49] I think there's a better argument to be made when you start to do comparative work like this. You go, all right, hang on, let's take the Western Cemetery behind the Great Pyramid, supposedly built by Khufu, Fourth Dynasty. [2:15:00] It's at the same elevation level. It's the same stone type as the mortuary or the pyramid temple of the middle pyramid complex, so after Khufu. So if he built that, then his son, Khafra, built this one. [2:15:13] This one, which was also cased in granite, and this wasn't. How come this is so much more eroded than this? There's no... [2:15:19] It's at the same elevation level. It's the same stone. You would assume that it's been subjected to the same weathering. [2:15:26] why is this so weathered and that is not. You can't explain it any other way. Yeah, I've not seen anyone respond to that. [2:15:33] to that argument with anything that makes any remote sense. Remote sense would dictate one's older. Yeah. I mean, we like to show people, like, which one looks older? Same stone. Same stone. [2:15:45] Same elevation level, same everything. It has to be. [2:15:48] Yeah, I mean, it's... And again, we know... That's crazy. That's crazy. And it's not like this. This is very hard pneumolytic limestone. Like, it's full of fossils. It's not a soft limestone. The idea that there was a civilization that built monolithic... [2:16:04] construction [2:16:05] Yeah. 100,000 years ago is crazy. It is. That's so crazy. But have you seen any of Michael Button's work? Yeah, yeah. I saw the episode, yeah. That is a very interesting episode. He's talking about how human beings in this exact same form –

[2:16:23] have been around at least 300,000 years. At least. At least. So that's the fossil record. Right. That's all we found. There might be human beings that were 500,000 years ago. There's six. Good evidence for it, actually. Really? Yeah. So the Morocco find, I've talked about this for years as well, [2:16:40] That the fossil record, we used to be what, 190, we're 50,000 and it's 195,000 with the Ethiopian bones and it's 315 or 19 with the Morocco find that's the latest in the fossil record, anatomically modern humans. However, there are studies, I think this is in the other vectors director, I've got those studies. [2:17:00] There's two studies that I reference usually. One is a DNA study that suggests... [2:17:04] from a genetic perspective, Neanderthals are our cousin. We didn't evolve from them. We both evolved from a common ancestor. And based on just looking at the genome and trying to trace it back, the paper suggests that we split with a common ancestor somewhere in the realm of 800,000 years ago. Us and Neanderthals split from a common ancestor. That's when we carved off. 800,000 years ago. Yep. And there's another study on teeth morphology, which was... [2:17:33] It actually got set up to try and prove that we're only... [2:17:36] you know, two, three hundred thousand years old. And they were looking at, all right, so our nearest common ancestor... [2:17:42] How quickly does our dental, our teeth have to evolve quickly? [2:17:47] and morph, like this teeth morphology, how quickly does that have to happen for us to basically have the teeth that we have today relative to our ancestors? And they thought, well, it's going to have to be this rate to make these numbers work, and then they did this big statistical study

[2:18:03] on a lot of different people from all around the world, and they figured out the rate of dental evolution is much slower. So then they basically worked backwards from there and said, okay, so if that's how quickly our teeth evolved, then we may have been around as many as 800,000 or 900,000 years. [2:18:21] Two different studies, I mean, again, fossil record 300,000, but other studies do suggest the possibility could be up towards a million years old for a human species. [2:18:30] human beings. It gets real interesting, even within the 300,000 years, but certainly if you stretch it back further, I mean, you can find... [2:18:37] graphs of the temperature and [2:18:41] The global temperature in ice core data from Antarctica goes back 400,000 years. So you have these peaks and valleys. Like we're in that peak right now in the Holocene, the nice warm period where civilization flourishes. But we've been through a bunch of those peaks before. And some of those valleys are, we know, as a result of cataclysm, like massive changes to the surface of the Earth where nothing would be left. So, look, I honestly put the realm of possibility for advanced civilization, not just the last ice age, but... [2:19:09] within up to a million years, potentially. That's... [2:19:13] Fucking crazy. Could be. Well, it's not. It'd be dust for a lot of it. It would be dust what we would find now. But that's what Michael Button's argument, when you're dealing with anatomically similar human beings, or anatomically exactly the same creature. [2:19:29] give us warm weather and, you know, enough food to eat, and we start fucking solving problems. Which is one of the reasons why Egypt itself was so spectacular, was that it was very fertile. It was in the African humid period. This is one of my arguments. I think if you...

[2:19:44] if we just don't [2:19:45] assume for a moment that there was a civilization that flourished during what you know the african humid period and before it when the sahara was a savannah and i that's why i think the sahara is such an appealing target is because what happened right so if that civilization ends we're knocked back to a stone to a to a relative stone age the people that were populating the non people have been in the north we know for like hundreds of thousands of years like people live and and [2:20:11] And if they're going to start that civilization, they're going to do it in the only part of that country that was habitable. It's the Nile Valley. And that's where all the sites of ancient Egypt are that we know about. But they've all been, let's assume they kick-started with stuff. And they've been inherited and renovated and reused. And the dynastic Egyptians made them their own, assuming there's something there before. So what's fascinating to me is the possibility that out there in the Sahara, maybe near an ancient water source or an ancient aqueduct or something or an ancient aquifer, [2:20:41] We might be another Assyrian out there, like this subterranean thing. There might be another Serapium. There might be another labyrinth buried beneath the sand somewhere that's not been touched properly. [2:20:51] And it hasn't been inherited and reused. Well, that's where the Reichardt structure gets weird. [2:20:55] Right. And that's on a timeline that could be very ancient because it's very eroded. And it's hard to see anything like this. It's interpretive almost at this point to figure out that there's... [2:21:05] if there was a structure there or anything. Right. Yeah, it's interesting. But it's also, that's another one when you go above and you look at the satellite imagery, you go, oh boy, that place got washed. Yeah, it did. It got washed. I mean, that place is one of the clearest examples of a place that looks like it got washed because there's literal salt deposits everywhere. Right.

[2:21:26] Right. [2:21:26] Yeah, I mean, it's... Which is nuts. It is nuts. It's... The whole thing is nuts. It's nuts. [2:21:31] Yeah, I don't know what happened. Jimmy Cortetti has some amazing videos on that. Well, yeah. If anybody's interested. Jimmy does. You do as well. Jimmy's awesome. Yeah, he's... Yeah, that seems like it could be one of the places to look. I mean, actually, so Michael Donilon's... There's an interesting... Talk about Melvin Burrows and that same satellite scan company. There's a guy named Michael Donilon who's been working... He was... [2:21:51] working with them still is he's putting out a documentary pretty soon called atlantica and he thinks he's found [2:21:57] at least if not Atlantis, a part of Atlantis off the coast of Spain. And they for 100% found some shit in the water zone, been diving on it for a couple of years now and building a documentary. But it's pretty convincing. He's found, again, another underwater, if nothing else, megalithic city [2:22:13] He thinks it could be Atlantis as well off the coast of Spain. Wow. I saw that that documentary was coming out. I didn't know exactly what they had discovered. Is there images that we can see right now of what they discovered? We saw an advanced preview of it until it comes out. But they discovered it with that Merlin Burroughs. [2:22:32] scanning tech the same satellite based tech and then they went and dived on it and i've we saw like a cut down version of three episodes at this conference i went to and met him i've since talked talked to him a bit uh fascinating 100 found something like it is man-made like whatever it is is [2:22:48] Yeah, so this is like the preview, little teaser thing. When does this come out? I'm not sure when. I feel like it's got to be this year, I hope. He's mostly done with it. Says 2025. Okay, so then...

[2:22:59] Or at least the trailers. That was Tim Akers for a second, the old guy with the beard. [2:23:03] When he was still alive. When did he die? [2:23:06] I think it was just last year or the year before. Damn. Yeah, it sucks. It's... [2:23:10] I'm very happy I got John Anthony West on a couple of times before he passed. [2:23:14] It's one of my big regrets is never actually having the chance to meet the man. Oh, he was great. He's phenomenal. You know, there's a clip I use in my... [2:23:20] videos of him back in the 90s. Does he show any images, Jamie? No. Not really. Back in the 90s, John Anthony West, I use it in some of my videos, and he's standing at this cabinet, the same cabinet I stand in front of. I take people there to the Cairo Museum, and he's looking at this beautiful diarote vase with a super thin neck, and it's just, it's like this... [2:23:38] but tiny little thin neck on it and fled. And he's just saying, you know, how much these vases are an anomaly. They're pre-dynastic. We don't know how they made them. You know, how do you machine out the inside of this vase through this tiny little neck? Someone did. And he said, I can only hope that at some point in the future, people will start to, like, apply modern technology and study these things and try to learn some more about it. So it's fantastic that that vase scan project is done. [2:24:03] Basically doing what he thinks we should be doing. That is amazing. We're learning a ton about it. His DVD series, Magical Egypt, is what got me hooked. Yeah, I know. That series is insane. It's so good. He was great. He was a symbologist, and I think that's... [2:24:19] that symbologist view of ancient Egypt is is fantastic occasionally he would touch on that the engineering side of things that I'm kind of deep on sometimes he'd ignore it too it's pretty funny I have a copy of his guidebook um

[2:24:32] which is hard to get these days, this guidebook to ancient Egypt. And it literally has about this much on the Serapium because there's just no real writing down in the Serapium. That's the place with the 25 giant, like 100-ton stone boxes. It's one of the most remarkable logistical feats [2:24:47] that come from ancient Egypt, but there wasn't a lot for a symbologist to interpret in that place. So it's like, yeah, it's pretty cool. Go check it out. It's the boxes. [2:24:56] And he's been like four hours down there. It's interesting if you think of him like being... [2:25:00] concentrating on the symbolism and how much work he did. [2:25:05] You need one of those too, right? Oh, for sure. You need a bunch of different people looking at all the different aspects of it. Yeah. [2:25:12] And he was another one that had his interpretation was this is a lot older. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No one seems to like do a deep dive on it and go on. They figured this out. No. Right. Zahi's example was so crazy. His explanation was this was the national project. Dude, I've it's so I tried to watch that podcast. Imagine if we're all going to fly without wings. This is the national project. This is going to use your mind and fly without wings. [2:25:42] going to work on that. I have heard him say that. [2:25:45] For 10 years. 11 years. 10 years. That's a national project? Yes. I asked him that question 2015. I was in the room with Graeme Hancock and him having this debate. It wasn't a debate. And he was yelling at it. He flipped out earlier in the day. But... [2:25:59] We asked him that question. I've heard him giving that answer so many times. You ask him about anything precision or logistics or these difficult-to-explain topics. That's the response. It's basically...

[2:26:11] They tried really hard, therefore they did. [2:26:14] It drives me nutty. He's not the only one who gives that response, by the way. That's a pretty stock standard answer to anything where you say, well, how did they move a thousand-tonne statue a thousand miles, which is what they did at one point? Yeah. [2:26:27] Or how did they build the pyramid so precisely or whatever? Or how did they do it in the timeframe? No, no, National Project, they just really wanted to. [2:26:34] The response to good examples like the Apollo 11, the Apollo program, right? Going to the moon. That was a national project at the time. There was a huge amount of resources put towards it relative to what NASA is today. [2:26:49] But we didn't just fucking all come together with a big... [2:26:51] you know, piece of fabric and fling some people at the moon, there's technology involved, right? You can't do it without the technology. That's the aspect of that answer that annoys me. It's like, no, I don't care how hard you try. Try does not get you. [2:27:05] like precise down to within a thousandth of an inch or... [2:27:09] In the case of one of these vases, four-tenths of a micron, six-tenths of a micron. That's the most extreme precision I've seen on one of them. It's insane. [2:27:18] These vases, these small things that you can hold in your hand. [2:27:22] are evidence of this incredible technology when these enormous statues also exist. [2:27:30] But you don't think of the vases as being the thing that's the smoking gun, but it kind of is. They are. It's because they predate the dynastic Egyptians, because they were buried with those people. We know they existed in those times. You can't do that with the big statues. But I have a whole long two-hour talk about it.

[2:27:50] how these things connect to those things, like the tube drills and the precision and the machining. It's the same technique. It's the stone types. I mean, God, there are a bunch of like tubular drills on the Great Pyramid, a whole bunch of them. People don't know about them or where they are, but I've got pictures and I can show people. The statues show the same machining marks. The statues reflect the same precision. The boxes... [2:28:11] the obelisks, a lot of the stonework reflect the same thing as well, the same tools were used, the same... [2:28:16] precision shows up. And in pretty much all of those cases... [2:28:21] The oldest and the best examples of all of those things are typically... [2:28:24] Also the oldest, like it's like the best examples of the oldest. Yeah, the single piece columns are absolutely incredible. Like those, the Romans didn't make columns like that. Like the fact that these... [2:28:35] columns of granite in Egypt, I mean they start off wide and they get narrower and narrower and narrower and then they flare out at the top and it's all a single piece and that means that the entire piece that was quarried had to be as wide as the widest part. [2:28:48] at the top and then machined down [2:28:50] These columns have freaking vertical – they have lathe centering points on them. Like there's like – like imagine it's like 150 tons turning on a vertical lathe or something that they did to create some of these things. So there's points that show that it was on lathe? Oh, it was definitely centering points. Yeah, on these columns, there's a forest of them laying out at Tannis, and you can see it on the endpoints. Can we show that? That's nuts. That's nuts. [2:29:11] And what's the weight of these things? Oh, up to... [2:29:14] I mean, I imagine the bigger ones are maybe 100, 150 tons, 200 tons. And you have these existing on all kingdom sites, like Saqqara, Giza, Abusea, the single-piece columns. They are also on sites later on that are attributed to the New Kingdom, places like the Luxor Temple or Karnak.

[2:29:32] I think that those places had a granite core and an infrastructure there already, and then those kings of the New Kingdom... [2:29:40] Seti the first, Maren Patah, Ramsey's the second, built... [2:29:43] around them and you can see the difference in technology of what's in the granite core with the giant obelisks and the columns and the granite buildings that look like the valley temple and the old structures then outside of that it's all sandstone and it's blocks and they made giant columns too but they're made from blocks of sandstone that would stack them up and shave them down it's a much softer stone and making blocks out of rounds and just you're making columns out of rounds is way easier than trying to build a single [2:30:09] flared [2:30:10] you know, granite column. And even the Romans... I believe... [2:30:14] I mean, it has to have been something like that. It can't have been that all the way because you have – actually, Jamie, in that Precision Large – [2:30:21] directory there's a picture of a column end like as i'm standing next to this amazing end piece but some of them are faceted so it can't have all been lathe work right they have little they have little buttresses and features but certainly the column of the lathe the circular part could have been done or the [2:30:39] The center of the column could have been done on a lathe, I'm sorry. [2:30:44] Yeah, it's fascinating. How big is this lathe? Huge. I mean, that's what Chris Dunn thinks. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the columns I'm standing next to. [2:30:53] That's a Tannis. And if you flip through, there's like a column end point that's – yeah, there's an end – so see there's a hole in the tip?

[2:31:03] So you have a lot – this is a place called Temple of Bastet, and there were forests of these things. Like, look at that thing. Pause with that. That thing is one of the most – Pause with that. Look at that. That's one of my favorite artifacts in all of Egypt. It is – [2:31:15] Immaculate. [2:31:16] That – the faceting – look at that bullnose that runs up the center of that frond of the palm because these are like palm-shaped pillars. I mean it tapers. It's thick on one end and it thins right down to the end and it's exactly the same on either side. Yeah. [2:31:30] on each of these fronds. I would love to get there and scan this thing. One of my favourite pieces, and you just had... [2:31:38] I mean, probably hundreds of these things on these sites. Wow. [2:31:42] I mean, even... [2:31:44] And it goes back in time. Again, these are columns from Saqqara and Abusea, which are all Old Kingdom sites. [2:31:51] So again, these were existing in the early times. They didn't build columns like this later in the civilization. They built them with sandstone pieces. Go back to those images again, please. [2:31:59] Look how crazy that looks. Yeah. [2:32:02] One solid piece of granite. Yeah, and flared. Flared. Even the Romans, who by all accounts had far superior technology to... [2:32:13] They had force multipliers. They had iron. They had all sorts of mathematical skill they got from the Greeks. They've built single-piece granite... [2:32:22] uh... [2:32:23] pillars but they were tapered the whole way and they weren't anything as precise, they're quite rough. If you've been to the Pantheon, this one's one of my favourites. [2:32:32] This is called Pompey's Pill. You can see the dude standing at the bottom like this. Like I've actually got a picture of me there as well, but it's

[2:32:43] Yeah, you see that dude at the bottom. [2:32:45] Zoom out so we can see the whole thing with him. [2:32:48] It's not working. [2:32:49] There it is. [2:32:51] Look at that. So I think that's a reworked column that the Romans reworked, and they carved that head top. [2:32:58] or it's a separate stone, I'm not actually sure. [2:33:01] But this is in Alexandria, in Egypt. But huge. [2:33:06] And where did that come from? And so this is how they do it. I mean, it's Aswanian granite. [2:33:11] But it's like 1,000 kilometers away. So then when you get to New Kingdom... So this is the stacked rounds of sandstone. I always like to show people this corner of Karnak because it's an unfinished column on the end there. You can see how they did it. They'd stack up those blocks and they'd basically shave it down. [2:33:28] And they would end up... And this is imitation too, right? This is the other key thing you see. Even with the vases, they would... [2:33:36] I mean, people knew what was sophisticated. Like anyone who works with stone, whether you're primitive or not, you see an artifact like that or one of those statues or a column out of stone, you're like – [2:33:44] Holy shit, how did they do that? So it's from the gods, right? I'm going to imitate it. [2:33:49] and I'm going to try and replicate it. And so they were doing their best to replicate and imitate. [2:33:53] But with sandstone. With sandstone and a technological method that they were capable of, which is to put blocks of sandstone up, shave it down and make it look like one of these columns. And they did great work. Don't get me wrong. Carnac is... [2:34:07] This is the great sort of hyper-style hall at Carnac. It's phenomenal. And it is the work of the New Kingdom.

[2:34:14] but it still pales in technological significance to... [2:34:19] like the older stuff, the single-piece stuff. But it's fabulous. Like, this is – I love – the Karnak's one of my favorite places because you have all those examples right in front of you of, like, high-tech and then low-tech. And so by New Kingdom, what year? So, like, 1400, 1500 BC. Hmm. [2:34:36] Ish. [2:34:37] Thank you. [2:34:38] So even then, they're still doing spectacular stuff. It's just not as sophisticated. It was Biola's. Right. Biola can see. Old kingdom, in the new kingdom, that was Egypt's height, like the height of the dynastic Egyptian civilization. Like Ramses II in particular, like always call him the greatest of the Egyptian kings. Egypt had the most power, the most wealth, the most ability to do that sort of work. So they built these great temples. And it just is very, very clear. Yeah, this is that Pompeii's pillar that they call it. [2:35:08] It's very clear that... [2:35:10] They built them around and on top of existing infrastructure. [2:35:14] In fact, at Karnak, which is attributed to Ramses II, I mean, again, the devils and the details. You have the names of kings that go back all the way to the old kingdom on various structures. You also, at one point in that... [2:35:27] hall where they pulled up a massive floor tile [2:35:30] Underneath the ground at the bottom there is a column base. It's another, like an older column. [2:35:35] and white calcite column base. That is the same sort of column base that you see on the very oldest of sites, which tells you there was a columned hall here before...

[2:35:45] and either got destroyed or knocked down, but the whole place was rebuilt. You see this evidence for these layers of infrastructure on these sites that tells you, okay, this is... [2:35:54] It's like looking at these ancient sites, you always have to keep that... [2:35:57] that in the back of your head, like, all right, there's been thousands of years of not only inheritance, but renovation and reuse and claiming. Like, it's... [2:36:06] it's, [2:36:07] People have asked me if I think the statues are so old, how come they look like dynastic Egyptians? [2:36:14] I think the answer is it's the other way around. [2:36:17] I think the dynastic Egyptians... [2:36:19] look like the statues. So [2:36:22] If you imagine, there's evidence for five or six of these giant thousand-tonne statues, which are the typical stuff you see at Luxor with the head jet. [2:36:31] and the Nemes crown or the big bowling pin thing on the head, and they're always in that iconic... [2:36:37] symbolic style of ancient Egypt. Can you go to some of those? [2:36:41] Yeah, I have the Precision Lodge, it's probably got the statues. [2:36:44] And imagine that you are a tribal culture that's emerging from this Stone Age, but you have this history. [2:36:51] and these legends of these stories, and you come across, yeah, so this iconic look. [2:36:57] And again, this stretches back. This is an Old Kingdom statue. This is attributed to... This is made of diorite, by the way. This is called Khafra Enthrone, one of my favorite statues, with the columns from Sakaar in the background. This is made out of that same impossibly hard stone. Yes, it's like a 6.5 to a 7 on the Mohs scale, and it's phenomenal. [2:37:14] An incredible statue. And this exhibits that facial symmetry as well. It looks like it. I've not seen the actual scans from this, but this thing actually has tubular drill marks and saw cuts in it too. So it's got between his heels is a, you see the remnants of a tube drill. Keep that there, please. I've probably got a picture of that in my machining directory of the actual...

[2:37:35] the tube drill between the heels and then in the legs on the inside you can actually see overcuts like a saw cuts from where there was they they cut too deeply into this insanely hard stone and [2:37:46] And it's overrun, which is if you were doing this by hand, that's a mistake you'd have to be making for about four hours. [2:37:52] to actually get the depth of the cut. But if you had some sort of power tool that was removing material quickly, you can overcut in there. And there's like little mistakes. Go to the full of this, please. [2:38:04] So your thoughts are that the Egyptians were imitating these ancient looks? Yes. I think they inherited their iconography. [2:38:15] from [2:38:16] the artifacts that they gain in statues like this, and also the thousand-ton versions of statues like this, [2:38:25] and [2:38:26] I mean, if you look at their art style, this is one of the things that blows my mind. It's like across that 3,000-year civilization – [2:38:34] That iconography didn't change very much. It's the same look. And how do the kings draw themselves on the walls? They're always trying to position themselves as being one of the gods. Eventually, they got this aura of divinity. You became a god. The pharaohs became divine. That wasn't always the case. [2:38:52] But they grew into that over time as that civilization progressed. And they always match themselves and they try to make themselves look like the gods. And again, eventually, once you get hubris and... [2:39:02] ego involved in some of these really big, really rich kings, you're like, damn it, I am one of the gods, put my name on this statue, that's how I want to be remembered. And that's, there were multiple gods, Seti I did it, his son.

[2:39:13] Ramses II, his son Meryn Patar, particularly in the New Kingdom, I mean, Petrie called Ramses the great usurper. That was his name for him because he was putting his name on everything, trying to label himself as one of the kings. [2:39:26] I think if you look at that, from the Old Kingdom through to the Ptolemaic era... [2:39:31] It's the same. Like they're depicting themselves as one of these gods who are always depicted in the same way. And that's like – [2:39:37] That's part of it from day one, it feels like. And I think where do you get that picture from? [2:39:42] It's like that – what's the – [2:39:46] What's the... [2:39:46] the poem from Percy Shelley, Ozymandias, Look on my works, ye mighty in despair. Like it's literally a poem by Percy Shelley that talks about it. He actually gets it from... [2:39:59] I think an account of Deodorus Siculus coming across one of these statues in the desert that's a thousand tons. It's like a weary traveler in a desert in an unknown land comes along to vast... [2:40:12] and trunkless legs of stone, like nearby a shattered visage lies, still full of sneer and arrogance, and it's basically... [2:40:22] written upon this stone of the words, My name is Ozymandias, king of kings. Look on my work, ye mighty, in despair. [2:40:29] And the endless sands stretch far away. I mean, I'm paraphrasing it. God, people are dicks. [2:40:34] Yeah. Especially when they become kings. There it is. [2:40:39] Look on my works, ye mighty and despair. Nothing beside remains, round and round, okay, that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, the lone and level sandstone. So it's like if you imagine you come across in the sand, in the desert, and you find the remnants of a thousand tons. I'm sure you've seen pictures of the Ramiseum and the thousand ton statues.

[2:40:58] Like there's four or five of them at least that happened, but they're incredible. Single-piece. [2:41:03] stone statues, [2:41:05] that were moved... [2:41:07] in some cases up to 1,000, like 600, 700 miles away. [2:41:11] I have them in a colossal directory. The size of them. [2:41:16] And did they fall from earthquakes? Is that the speculation? I suspect either that or the hands of men. I think it was like, I think with enough dudes, with enough leverage, you can probably yeet that thing over and it'll crack when it falls. And I think it's, they were definitely, there was a long period of them destroying all the gods and all the, you know, the false idols of the past. Of course. Of course. [2:41:37] At a place called Tannis, there's a foot... [2:41:39] and there's a giant foot that I can't... [2:41:41] I mean, my whole asterisk hand wouldn't fit in the toenail. And it's a repurposed block of granite. And Petrie found it. And there's other pieces of this statue. So we know it was a statue. [2:41:53] that had it been standing, it's about the same size as the Statue of Liberty without the pedestal. [2:41:58] the foot's about the same size, just give it a frame of reference. [2:42:03] And that thing's made from Aswanian granite. Now, Tannis is in the north, and it's north of Cairo. It's up in the delta towards the Mediterranean, and Cairo's down here. It's like 1,000 kilometers. So someone at some point took at least 1,000-tonne, probably more like 1,500-tonne, [2:42:19] block of stone because they didn't finish them. They didn't ship them finished. We know they finished stuff on site. [2:42:24] like 1,000 kilometres north of... [2:42:28] There's an even better example, Jamie, I think in the – Is that the foot? The foot?

[2:42:32] The foot at Tannis? No, that's it there, the first one. [2:42:37] In my... I was looking and I didn't see it. In the massive... Yeah, I just would... [2:42:43] this [2:42:43] Thank you. [2:42:44] There's actually my video thumbnail in the ancient tennis, largest stone statue ever made. [2:42:49] huge objects. [2:42:54] Yeah. [2:42:54] Thank you. [2:42:57] There you go. So there's go up one. That's the foot there. [2:42:59] Thank you. [2:43:00] So you see that's the – it's actually – it's funny because this block's been repurposed. It's been cut off on both sides and used as a block in a wall. They cut the front off it and the back off it and stuck it in and rebuilt it. This thing – there's a picture of the whole arm when it was put together in that directory. So that's a giant thumb. [2:43:17] holding a scroll and they put the whole arm together. I've got one picture of it. One time I was there. [2:43:23] they put the whole arm together and [2:43:26] That is probably the most impressive example... [2:43:30] uh [2:43:32] It's in there, I'm sure. Let's see. [2:43:35] It's down, down, down. Yep, up one. There you go. Yeah, so this is made from composite quartzite. So this is at Carnac. [2:43:43] This is one of several of statues of this size at Carnac. And what's impressive about this, they actually put this together for one year, and then they took it apart, and I got told that it was because they didn't, people were freaking out about how big this must have been. They didn't kind of, it gives a sense of scale, and then people are like, what the fuck, how are they doing this? So they took it apart again, but you can still see the thumb there today, so it's turned on its side. Now, what's cool about this is that it's a straight arm.

[2:44:06] So a lot of those statues, like the one at the Ramesses, they're seated, so they always have their elbows bent at their knees. This thing was standing. [2:44:13] So it was a standing statue, 1,000 tons, made from composite quartzite, which is in a lot of ways more difficult to work than granite. It's a very hard, compressed form of sandstone. It's like 6.5 to 7, but it's full of flint. [2:44:28] It's a stone carver's nightmare. It's like you can see the chunks of flint in the stone [2:44:33] But they somehow worked that surface just with no problem going over flint, which is seven, seven and a half on the most scale. The trick with this statue is where that stone came from. [2:44:43] That's a Carnac in the south. [2:44:45] Aswan for Granite bit further south. [2:44:48] Composite quartzite doesn't come from Aswan. It comes from the Red Mountains north of Cairo, [2:44:54] And the tricky part here is that the Nile River flows north. [2:44:57] So it's because it's north that people are like, oh, it's flowing up, but it flows to the north. So they had to take the block for that thing, [2:45:06] I'd say 1,500 tonnes easy. They had to bring that [2:45:10] Op River. [2:45:11] Upriver, 600 miles or something. 500 miles. Wow. [2:45:18] I don't know how you explain that. And there's certainly no depictions of them doing that. [2:45:22] That is a logistical feat. [2:45:27] I mean, I don't know how you can rival it. It was a national project. [2:45:31] Don't you get it? Don't you get it? Just a national project. They really wanted to. Dude. Well, it's one of those really amazing mysteries because the actual facts of it are so spectacular that it defies any conventional explanation to the point where it opens up people to the possibility that maybe we don't know.

[2:45:53] Almost anyone listening to this, it's even remotely reasonable. [2:45:57] that sees that goes, oh, okay. I think this picture is a lot bigger than we thought it was. [2:46:04] Yeah, that's honestly my response to it too, is I don't know how they did this. [2:46:08] You can't do it. [2:46:10] primitive fashion like we literally tried like we've had the Thunderstone is the other is the how would they even do it today [2:46:17] hydraulics and diesel power, like huge bar. I mean, I didn't even know. You try to move. I mean, it makes newspaper headlines when they shift a load of like 150 tons on a truck somewhere. 1,000 tons these days? 1,500 tons? 1,500 tons. I mean, we have cranes. We have the capability, but it's usually by water and giant. I don't know how we'd transport a load like that over anything other than water. Imagine the wooden boat and how hard those dudes are rowing. Upriver, too. [2:46:47] the water [2:46:48] And when you're dealing with 150 tons, how far does it sink? Right. [2:46:52] You know what I'm saying? Displacement. Yeah. Yeah. How much of a boat do you need? And can you fit a boat that wide? In parts of the know you can, but I'll tell you this, and I've looked at this. [2:47:04] that you sure as shit can't do it at the quarry, because this is what they say. You go to the quarry, and this is an example I like to give people all the time, the unfinished obelisk. [2:47:13] You know, at the S1 course, like 1,200 tons, more or less, like – [2:47:17] 10 tons off or something. They will tell you that, oh, yeah, so this low area in the quarry, that's the harbor.

[2:47:23] where they parked the boat to take the stone. I mean, there is no chance that you could put that thing on a boat that even would [2:47:32] it's like [2:47:33] This is not in the realms of possibility for a boat to displace enough water to take a load like that obelisk. It would literally just be this giant clunk. It just can't happen. And what's more... [2:47:44] That quarry... [2:47:45] or that harbour in the quarry. [2:47:49] That isn't [2:47:50] a harbor, that's an extraction. [2:47:53] They pulled a fucking block out of there the same size as the obelisk. [2:47:58] And it's gone. [2:47:59] You can see it. It's an off-limits area to the quarry, but we kind of... [2:48:03] get in there every time. So someone somehow pulled that off. It's already been done 100%. We know it has because we've got the statues and blocks of that size and tonnage have been successfully transported and shaped. However, in that place they call the quarry and the harbour, it's all scoop marks. It's the same technology. And here's where it gets wild. [2:48:24] is that you can see the extraction that's come out. It's massive, basically like the obelisk, the unfinished obelisk. So something like an order of 1,200 to 1,300 tons in a piece got pulled out of there. And in the corner, right up at the end where you see the boxy end of whatever this was, was taken out on the wall. [2:48:41] There's red ochre painting. It's paintings of like emus or flamingos and some other dolphins and other stuff. [2:48:48] and it [2:48:49] It's... [2:48:50] an identical match. [2:48:52] for the art style and paintings that you find on pre-dynastic pottery.

[2:48:58] that comes from Nakata culture and before. It's exactly the same. It's not dynastic Egyptian. It's pre-dynastic artwork. Can we see that? That's been put on the wall. I hope I have pictures of that. I know I do on here. Yeah. [2:49:13] I actually have a video called... [2:49:16] I have a video where I look at all this on my channel, but it's the exact same artwork that you see on the vessel. So to me, it's an indication of there was a primitive, these people that were living there in the thousands of years before the dynastic Egyptian civilization rose, were obviously in that quarry and they found this convenient wall to put some artwork on. [2:49:35] And they painted on it, which tells you that, well, this extraction had to happen before that, right? Right. It had to have been taken out before that. And how far before? We don't know. Can't date the stone. So... [2:49:45] But somebody took a piece like that out of there. [2:49:47] 100% with the same technology, the scoop marks and stuff. Have you found anything on that, Jamie? [2:49:54] Once you get that, let's look at the unknown obelisk, too, to give people a reference point. The unfinished obelisk? Yeah, the unfinished obelisk is... [2:50:02] How many feet? [2:50:03] I have that open now. [2:50:05] That is definitely in that other directory. [2:50:09] Okay, hold on. [2:50:10] That's the video about the obelisk. The unfinished obelisk is how long? [2:50:17] Oh, God, it's got to be... [2:50:21] I don't know, 100 feet long or something like that. It's a 1980... [2:50:25] 90 feet long i'm thinking you'll see it in the picture it's i mean it's a giant giant block i mean so it's not extracted either that's what i should say it's it is it is still attached to bedrock so they were cutting it out

[2:50:36] and then for whatever reason they stopped. [2:50:39] assume that the obelisk would have a square section, which means, you know, same width as... [2:50:45] like this, a square section, it's mass with the granite there at like 2.7 tonnes per cubic metre is roughly 1,200 tonnes. [2:50:55] And did they stop because it was cracked or did they not know? That's what they say. I don't think so. I don't think that it doesn't – to me, that's hard to say whether it was cracked or not. It was – people tried to quarry it after. There wasn't much attempt made to quarry it. I don't know why you would even if it cracked. [2:51:10] Why not use it? If it was done during dynastic Egypt, I mean, you've done all that work. [2:51:16] You've cut out the trenches on all of it around. You could cut pieces out of that. It'd take way less work. You want to get a smaller piece of stone for something else? Just cut it. [2:51:24] Like you should use it, but that's not what happened. Unless their technology was so sophisticated that what they wanted was very specific and they could just do it again. [2:51:33] Yeah, and maybe it didn't crack. I think that's an example. You do see on a lot of these sites, like the Serapium, like the Assyrian at the quarry, that something happened – [2:51:42] That meant tools down. Yeah, so here's the painting. This is the pictographs. Those are the paintings, and if you compare that to what's on, like, the pre-dynastic vases, you'll see exactly the same thing. Now, so these depictions of flamingos. Yeah. What? [2:51:56] Was it possible to date the paint? [2:51:59] that they used? I think you probably could. I don't know if anybody ever has. I'd love to see that done. [2:52:06] Yeah, I would love for that to happen. That's a very good point because it just – there's a few things in Egypt where I'm like, why don't we date that? Sorry, Jim. Can we scroll down a little bit?

[2:52:17] That scoopy thing. No, below that. Yeah, right there. What's that? So that's another piece in the quarry. And this puts the light of the stupid pounding stone theory of... [2:52:31] of a [2:52:32] of how they explain this in the mainstream, because these scoop marks they tell you are pounding stones. This is another big piece. This is probably, we guessed this piece, it was probably going to be like a smaller seated statue, but still something that's maybe 150 tons. Yeah. [2:52:45] and they were cutting this out. So you can see this is the process of like [2:52:49] carving out underneath it. And so you can get in these trenches and the scoop marks are crazy though because they extend basically from the top of the wall, like 15 feet straight down these ridges, they go along the ground under and then up. [2:53:03] on the roof side. So if you're pounding, you would have been doing this, pounding up [2:53:07] to pound that out and it [2:53:09] Also, it's a very sharp turn on the inside. It's the result of some tool. Also, someone's got to be underneath it when it finally cracks loose. Yep. [2:53:16] That would not, yep. Yo. Don't want to draw that short straw. Thank you very much. Yeah, we take people down into that area around this block every time. It's great. And it's very bizarre looking. And you can grab that stone and whack at it and just see how little effect you'll have. [2:53:31] But those stones, is that an example of what they are trying to claim was used? Yes. How long would that take? So is that the unfinished obelisk? That is the unfinished obelisk. [2:53:42] And so where is that sucker cracked? Yeah. [2:53:45] So there's a couple cracks, right? So this is the thing, there's attempts at quarrying that have been made. I think it's that crack up towards the top.

[2:53:53] is what they say [2:53:55] how it cracked, but we don't know how it cracked. We don't know if it cracked after the fact either. It's possible that, I mean, like a lot of these places, that it was a tools down situation, just something happened to stop, whether it was civil unrest, cataclysm. Right. And this thing was buried too. That's the thing. There was a lot of quarrying that happened. [2:54:13] After this, at higher levels, like, so this is, you've got to imagine when you go to this quarry, it's like they've cut the top off a granite mountain. They've taken so much granite out of there. Huge granite mountain to get down to, you know, this sort of high-quality granite, which is not surface-level granite. You have to go 10, 12, 15 meters into granite to get blocks that are even possible to be this size or this, you know, one single piece. [2:54:37] And in fact, even now, you can see... [2:54:39] Like, all of this has changed. There's no staircase. All of that gravel up to the north of that has all been moved. We're still clearing the site out, or they are. But when this was first discovered, it was buried in, like, seven, eight metres of quarry rubble from all of the quarrying that had happened above it and around it, like, for thousands of years. The Egyptians, the Romans... [2:55:00] Yeah, this was buried. How did they know it was there? Well, so there was like an edge, one little edge piece poking out. Like, what the hell is this? And then it was Howard. It was... [2:55:10] It was Flinders Petrie's assistant who actually excavated that site, and he had to split a bunch of big blocks to even get it out of the way. It took them forever, but they eventually... [2:55:19] uncovered at all yeah wow but it was the back end of it's like seven eight meters of

[2:55:24] rubble that they had to clear out. [2:55:26] Yeah. [2:55:27] That's nuts. [2:55:28] Yeah, it is. And to me, it's quite plausible. It's a possibility that that was there. [2:55:34] It was done. It's quite possible there's more of that stuff out there. Oh, for sure. I mean, there's many more quarries. This is just because that's in the quarry. That's the quarry that's sort of been cleared and made available for tourists. But just tons of quarries. Like, there's... [2:55:48] Yeah, these are great pictures. That's the dual image. [2:55:53] when it first popped out. Yeah, so they had this section of it and they're like, "Wow, this is something else." [2:55:58] And so what happened with the pounding stones is really interesting because – [2:56:01] There were thousands of them on the site, these round... [2:56:04] however [2:56:06] the vast majority of them were broken. [2:56:09] that was split and god i'm blanking on the name of the guy who excavated the site um [2:56:15] Yeah. [2:56:15] However, he was like, huh, how come these are all broken? And he tried to break them. So he stood up on like a 15 feet up. [2:56:23] And he's hurling these stones down onto the granite. Bang, bang. He had to do it like 10 times. And eventually he cracks a chip off on them because they're dolarite. They're hard. They are hard of stone. And look, you will eventually... [2:56:34] cried enough dust [2:56:35] eventually... [2:56:37] I mean... [2:56:38] It's like the... [2:56:40] There actually have been studies done. Dennis Stocks did a study, and the volume, it's basically you remove about – [2:56:46] I think it was two-thirds the volume of a golf ball in an hour. [2:56:51] of pounding. [2:56:52] . [2:56:53] Yo. So not a lot. Not a lot. Yeah. And if you can imagine...

[2:56:58] I like to tell people, it's like, you can only fit, like, [2:57:00] You know, these trenches around this colony. It's not like you can put a thousand dudes in there. They've got to sit in there. There's one person in one spot and dudes. And so all you have to do is imagine... [2:57:09] All of that space being filled up with golf balls. [2:57:12] Add another third for the, you know, because it's two-thirds a golf ball, and then maybe add another half again to that to account for the negative space between the balls. That's how many hours it would take, which is... [2:57:23] I mean, decades of effort. It's not remotely possible to do it in any reasonable time frame. People can't. And pounding stones is like, come on. How do you break it free? Well, that's the issue. Who's underneath it when they're pounding? [2:57:37] That's what I think these balls were. So I think they're very difficult to break. They've taken away all the broken ones. The only ones on site now are these little nice rounded ones. And even then, you can't do it from all in a couple. You have to kind of... [2:57:48] let it go and catch it and your arms would burn out in no time. But... [2:57:53] I think the reason so many were broken, I actually, I think, and you can actually see this in the... [2:57:58] in the harbour area there are these channels that I think they cut under them you can see the remnants of them where they took the big extraction out and I suspect what they did was they would shove these balls of dolerite in there and it would provide them enough movement or just enough support where they could they could cut the rest of the of the whatever scoop out or remove the other attachment points and then you're also once you get out of that trench you can now shift this thing ever so slightly to get whatever you would need to get under it to lift it up out

[2:58:28] the other problem with the obelisk is like it's on an angle [2:58:31] Thank you. [2:58:32] And, I mean, the trench is going to be... [2:58:35] When it's completed, they had only dug down two-thirds as deep as they needed to go. So that trench at its thickest point would have been like 12, 15 feet deep. [2:58:46] down there and you've got to get under it. So it's on an angle. You have to lift that thing up. [2:58:50] 15, 20 feet up in the air to get it out of the trench and then somehow move it together. And it's this rocky, crazy environment to move it to get it somewhere and then take it wherever else you're taking it. But you'd have to... [2:59:02] be able to manoeuvre. So I honestly think those Dolarite balls could have been used as primitive ball bearings that were just, that's all they were used for was to support it while you cut it free. [2:59:11] And then a lot of them would have snapped in half under the mass of something like that, which explains why so many of them were broken. [2:59:19] because you ain't broken those things by pounding on them. [2:59:21] Like it's just not going to break. [2:59:24] That actually makes sense that they were used as some sort of a ball bearing. Yeah. [2:59:28] But even so, even if that's the case, like how, what? Well, how are you lifting it? What are you doing to lift that obelisk out there? How many people are involved if it's just manual labor? You cannot fit enough people around that obelisk to even come close. Like not – you're probably not even to get 10% of the amount of people. Like it's so – it's such a rocky weird – you can't fit that many people around it today. I have no idea how – I mean I don't think they were doing this without the expectation that they could get it done. [2:59:58] But what kind of conventional explanation is this? There's nothing. Is there for this? There's nothing. It's nothing. There's nothing. They just gloss over it. We don't know. They say we don't know. They don't address...

[3:00:07] realities of the thousand tons. I've not seen anyone address those realities. Well, okay, so they do [3:00:13] Thank you. [3:00:14] And it's like with logistics, they will show you pictures where the Egyptians are moving something that is 100 tons or 150 tons and say, see – [3:00:25] Now, that's not how... [3:00:27] logistics works. So for example with the statues we know they scale right up [3:00:32] to [3:00:33] you know, a thousand tons or more. [3:00:35] There is a picture on a tomb of a guy named Dujuti Hotep. [3:00:39] and I've got this in the statues directory, I think. It's a painting on a wall, and it's a sled with this statue, and there's rows of guys. They've got the imprint of dudes behind dudes, and they're all pulling on a rope. No pulleys again. They didn't have force multipliers. They were just straight pulling. Wooden levers, a wooden sled. They're dragging this statue. In the case of this statue, we know about this statue. There's pieces of it left. It was made from alabaster. Calcite's not as heavy as granite. [3:01:06] but it probably weighed, the estimate of how much it weighed was 57 tonnes. [3:01:10] which is quite a lot, is respectable, right? And you can imagine, but with enough labour and on a sled, this is it. [3:01:16] This is a 57-ton statue. There's a guy pouring something on the sand or in front of them. So you can count all these dudes and the shadows of the dudes behind them on these ropes. [3:01:25] And so there's a figure about it and there's been papers written about this. There's literally, I think, a Japanese team wrote a paper about what it would take to do this. [3:01:34] And, okay, this is possible. For 57 tons with enough people, enough horsepower, you can do it.

[3:01:39] It's not like that scales up on a linear... [3:01:42] increase in difficulty to something that's a thousand tons. It's more of a logarithmic exponential curve. You cannot [3:01:49] You cannot take this explanation and apply it to something that's 1,000 tons. It's 20 times as heavy. The friction coefficient goes through the roof. Those sleds would literally just drive into the ground. [3:02:02] You're in realms of mass where it's like material failure becomes a problem. Wood is no longer sufficient. [3:02:08] to support that. You certainly can't move it [3:02:12] up any slopes, you have to do all this ground preparation work to even attempt it. And they move these things like 1,000 kilometres. [3:02:20] If there's a place that you could go back in time and see, that is it. That is it. Yeah, quarry would be a good one. God, if you could go back in time just to see construction, I guess quarry. But pyramids, yeah. How are you lifting things? What are you doing? What does your machinery look like? You must have some kind of technology that is just dust in the wind now. [3:02:41] It has to be, because we've tried this. Do you know about the Thunderstone? You heard of this thing? No. Okay. Oh, no, I did hear about this. Yeah, so in like the 1700s, I think it was, pre-industrial age. [3:02:53] Well, the early days... [3:02:54] But no diesel power, no hydraulics. And this is the Thunderstone. So we did, like in Russia, they moved this thing from Finland... [3:03:00] to Russia, it's in St. Petersburg, they carved it as they went. It's the base now for, I think, a bronze statue of Peter the Great. But this is how they did it. And so basically you can see the cap stands, the twist things these dudes are working on, they're rotating. They would dig these giant holes to anchor these big logs in the ground to then use pulleys and force multipliers with dudes on giant rails, and then they would have these huge big iron rails...

[3:03:27] that they would put on the ground and carry back and forth. And the whole thing was moving on these bronze spheres, these big, giant bowling ball-sized spheres of bronze. And on a good day, they'd move this thing 150 metres. [3:03:40] Three, what's that, 450 feet? Still pretty impressive. Yeah, but it took them years and years. And then, and it's, this thing weighed around 1,500 tons. It's interesting that using bronze spheres, you know. Brass spheres, I'm sorry. Whatever, metal spheres. Yeah. Which is very similar to what you're describing with the obelisk. Right, right. [3:03:59] But again, when you compare the level of technology here to ancient Egypt, there's nothing. They show you what they did with that Dejuti-Hotep image. It's a wooden sled, no force multipliers, no cap stands, no pulleys, no none of that. Just dudes yanking on a rope. There's no evidence they use pulleys. Pouring water on the sand to make it slippery. Yeah, or milk or whatever, right? Or oil. Who knows? It's just stupid. You cannot explain it when it took us everything they had for years and years to move that. [3:04:29] Finland, and it wasn't on some little river barge either. They built a giant platform, took them a year to build it, and then they had to put warships on either side of it to keep it balanced. It's massive to even plop this thing in the center and hope that they got this thing over to Russia to then move it. [3:04:43] the rest of the way. So it ain't no barge carrying a thousand tons down the Nile. [3:04:49] No. [3:04:50] That's nuts. Something happened. It's all so fascinating. And something happened is actually the only answer we have.

[3:04:57] Yeah. I would agree. [3:04:59] Yeah. [3:04:59] Ben, you're awesome, man. I really, really appreciate you coming on here. Your channel, Uncharted X, fantastic channel. So much good content. How long have you been doing it now? [3:05:09] I've been doing it. I quit my job 10 years ago, but not Uncharted X. Thank God. You had the courage to do that. It was a big old step. The wife was like, what are you doing? I know, but look, you were right. [3:05:20] It worked out. I am super grateful that it's worked out. In fact, I want to – I mean, obviously, thank you for the hospitality and the invite. And I genuinely also think – [3:05:30] Dude, I've come full circle with this a little bit. Like, what got me into it in the first place, I mean, I was always interested, but it wasn't until Graham's first, who I've gotten to know very well over the years, I love that man, that... [3:05:43] It wasn't until his first appearance on your podcast back in the old days, like was it 2011, 2012, something like that. He was one of the first real guests. [3:05:51] That was just me and Duncan, that one. You and Duncan? Right. At your house? At my house. That was what I was doing at my house. That one was what really, I mean, after that I followed him really closely. I went to Peru and Bolivia with him in 2013, and then 2015 I went with him to Egypt. [3:06:06] So it's like the fact that I'm here talking to you now, you started me on this and it's come full circle. So thank you for that. And the fact that you are interested in this topic, I think, is such a boon to everyone else out there that, you know, you get to spread the word and – [3:06:20] It's just such a benefit to the whole space. Well, I'm so happy that guys like you took that fucking baton and ran with it.

[3:06:30] It's been a wild ride. I love it. My answer to all this is who's not? I don't understand you if you're not interested in this. How is this not unbelievably fascinating? Yeah. [3:06:41] 100% I agree. That's what happened to me. I fell down this... [3:06:45] pyramid-shaped hole. I had quite a career before this in the tech world, but I'd go to conferences and tech events, and the second that we're out in the break room, I'm talking about the Younger Dryas and pyramids and massive statues and all this shit, Graham Hancock, and they're like, this is really interesting. I'm like, no. It's literally the most interesting thing about civilization. [3:07:06] That time period and the mysteries that are involved in trying to just decipher what happened. Yeah. It is the most fascinating time in history. [3:07:16] I think. [3:07:17] I'd agree. I'd agree. Yeah. Phenomenal. [3:07:20] Again, thank you so much. Thank you, Joe. We'll definitely do this again. I would love to. Especially if some more information comes out about the labyrinth, and hopefully more people are also picking up the baton and more people get involved. I see that happening. I'm very glad that it is. I'm absolutely thrilled to see other people getting into the field. I don't see any of this. It's not competition. It's like all – it's a rising tide. Zahi, you can say you found it. Zahi, come on. Jump on board. You can definitely say you found it. Everybody will agree that you found it. [3:07:50] the stuff in the star shop, but save that for next time. Let's do it again then. Definitely do it again. I would love to. Thank you so much. This was awesome. All right. Bye, everybody. Bye-bye.

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