MURDERED: The Powell Family

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now wherever you get your podcasts. [00:30] Hi, Crime Junkies. Ashley Flowers here. The case we have for you today is a dark one, one that our listeners have requested over and over again. It's the story of Susan Powell and her two young boys. Part of the story revolves heavily around child protective services and caseworkers' supervised visits, all stuff that I have zero experience with. So I have asked Britt to tell us the story this week. As a lot of you know, she's fostered multiple kids in the system, [01:00] She's currently fostering another child as we speak. So she has a lot of experience with the kinds of interactions that play into the case we're going to talk about today. So Britt, are you ready to take us on a pretty dark ride? Yes, I am. Okay, let's go. [01:30] Thank you.

[01:47] So today's story actually ends on February 5th of 2012. Wait, you're starting at the ending? Yeah. [01:55] I am. Ooh, you're totally shaking it up. Okay. So a social worker was taking two little boys, Charlie and Brayden, for a supervised visit with their father. And she had taken the boys on a couple of visits for the family before, but they'd always done it in a public facility. But because of the family's notoriety, which we'll get to in a bit, they were actually ordered to now have visits in the father's home. And the children had actually been removed from the father's custody and had been living with their maternal grandparents. [02:24] And I'd be lying if I said this wasn't the most difficult part of the story for me. And honestly, it's kind of why I'm leading with it. I've known social workers. I've had them pick up placements from my house and to have supervised and unsupervised visits with children's parents. And this case has always echoed in my heart. Every single time I've had to load a kiddo up for a visit. [02:46] And a lot of people have given the social worker a lot of flack for her actions of this day, but I honestly can't place any blame on her. So she gets to the father's house. [02:55] And the boys leap out of the car, super excited to see their dad, of course. And the social worker, who I'm sure, like all the social workers I've known, was probably lugging a giant messenger bag with case files to update while she was at the visit. She was probably lagging a bit behind them. And the boys get to the door. Their dad welcomes them in. And with a smirk... [03:15] The boy's father, Josh Powell, slams the door in the face of the social worker, who is shocked and a bit taken aback by a whiff of gasoline.

[03:26] Hmm. [03:27] The social worker. [03:28] Knowing the history of his family, immediately calls 911. [03:32] But before we get to... [03:35] what do you know, a terrible 911 operator from the state of Washington. I want to tell you a little bit more about the history of Josh Powell. Josh's parents had divorced when he was 16, and it was pretty ugly. His parents had married in the Church of the Latter-day Saints, but his father, Steve, had become severely disillusioned by the church. And he was also kind of a creep. Josh or his father? Eventually both, but mostly his father. Okay. [04:05] That his father Steve thought that he had the right to marry another woman. And had his heart set on someone who was actually already married and had zero interest in him. [04:18] That's not cool. Don't do that, guys. [04:21] He allegedly wrote songs about this woman and even stalked her a bit, which would come to be a bit of a recurring theme in their lives. Terry, Josh's mom, stated that she had wanted full custody of the couple's children after the divorce because Steve had been known to expose at least their sons to pornography. So they did end up getting divorced after he thought he deserved a second married wife? Right. Okay. [04:47] However, the custody was split between the two parents and Steve got his sons and Terry got the daughters. Oh, weird. Eventually, at least one of the daughters would go on to move in with her father, though. So wait, was there stuff we don't know about Terry? Was she even more messed up than the dad or what? It seems weird that they would go live with him.

[05:07] Not really. In the divorce filing papers, [05:12] Steve had accused Terry of witchcraft. What? And Terry was basically like... [05:21] You know, I... [05:22] I'm a naturalist. I'm an herbalist. I enjoy, like, not necessarily making potions, but making, like, my own tinctures and my own teas. But it's not... [05:32] witchcraft far cry from like a black kettle in the woods like right not quite the same [05:39] No. [05:41] blood shedding, nothing like this. And that was really the only thing that he had, quote unquote, against her, other than the fact that she was like, hey... [05:50] Don't marry someone else too. She's so crazy. [05:53] But even before Steve and Terry Powell divorced, there were accounts of Steve being especially violent, specifically towards Josh, singling him out and really harshly beating and berating him. And personally, I believe this probably contributed to Josh's personality probably in more ways than we'll ever know. When Josh was 13 or 14, he actually attempted to hang himself. And in some of the articles that I read, there were even reports of him killing family pets. [06:20] And almost everyone mentioned that he had threatened to kill his mother with a kitchen knife because she had wanted him to do the dishes. How dare she? I mean, everyone's making this woman sound like a real monster. I know. Dishes. Making your own tea. Tea. I mean. Women. So fast forward a couple years. His parents are divorced. And Josh meets Susan Cox at a church event as a teenager. And by the time Susan was 19, they had gotten engaged.

[06:50] Josh, but it also felt like he was pretty harmless. A few of Susan's friends said that it almost seemed like Susan maybe felt sorry for Josh. And in the accounts that I read about that, the first thing that came to mind, Ashley, was the term missionary dating. Wait, I don't know missionary dating. [07:07] So missionary dating is kind of a very specifically religious thing. [07:12] term maybe. And it's where a religious person dates a non-religious person in order to make them religious as well. That is not a thing. You're just dating. But it's dating in a way that if you're a Christian, you would date a non-Christian as like a ministry. So you are dating them because you... No, you're not. You're dating them because you want to date them and you're making... You're dating them in the assumption that you can also convert them. Can you guys feel my eye roll? [07:37] because my eyes are so far back in my head right now. So, okay, missionary dating. So Susan was very firmly grounded in the Church of Latter-day Saints and knew that Josh had grown up in the LDS church. And... [07:50] she really truly believed that she could help make his faith stronger. And... [07:57] Say what you will about... [07:59] if that's possible or not, but I did find a couple of humanizing facts that you know I love about Susan. Susan and her best friend growing up loved doing hair and nails, and Susan had actually trained to become a cosmetologist eventually, but her and her childhood bestie had this dream of opening a hair salon. Do you want to know what it's called? [08:17] Yes. Beauty and your beast. Which at first I was like, what? But get this. It was where there is like a human salon and spa.

[08:27] with... [08:28] A grooming salon spa for the pets. Oh my God, I love that. It's not a terrible idea. It's not. Me and Charlie definitely need to get our nails done together. Like that needs to be a thing. So for the first couple years of their marriage, things were going pretty well. Even though Josh kind of struggled holding down a job. In a decision to lower their living expenses, they moved in with Josh's father, Steve. Which was when things really started to deteriorate between the couple. [08:58] No. [09:12] No. [09:14] Yeah. Not cool. [09:17] She had confronted Josh about it, and he kind of brushed it off. And he had even kind of blamed Susan for seducing his dad. Wait, what? Yeah, very not cool. Susan kind of chalked it up to the fact that Steve wasn't a great guy, and Steve made Josh a worse person. Spending time with his dad wasn't good for him, clearly. Clearly. And Josh had really kind of lost grip of his role in their family. As things started getting worse still living there, [09:47] to West Valley City, Utah for a fresh start. And once they settled into their new home in Utah, Susan took a job at Wells Fargo Financial, and they eventually have two sons, Charlie, in 2005, and Brayden in 2007. Susan had really hoped that a new location would inspire kind of a new era in their relationship, and it did.

[10:07] but not in the way Susan could ever have imagined. [10:12] You guys, I feel like we all have that one friend with that niche expertise. Like they have the best outfits, the most unique decor, amazing vintage jewelry or whatever. Well, imagine if you could shop right from their home or closet. That is what it's like on Whatnot. Now, if you've never been on this app, it is great. It's this live shopping experience where you can bid on the best stuff. I was just eyeing these like three container porcelain kitchen set thing. I think you put like flour and sugar in it. I don't know. I was gonna have three different cookie jars basically, but I'm redecorating and I'm really [10:42] flair to my new space. So I have been deep into the antiques and decor side of whatnot. But truly, there is a category for everything. I mean, with over 10,000 fashion, beauty, and bag sellers on whatnot, there is always something for every buyer to discover live right now. And the best part is the deals are unbeatable. You almost never pay full price. It is name brands, but without the retail prices. Download the Whatnot app today and get free shipping on your first order. Just search [11:12] Start scoring amazing deals. [11:14] Away from their hometown in Washington, Susan's bubbly personality gained many new friends at their church. And a lot of those friends said that they loved having Susan as an addition to their group. But Josh really was just more of a hanger-on. He dominated the conversations with useless facts, never letting anyone get a word in edgewise, and never really seemed to click with anyone. He was also, quote,

[11:38] legendary for being incredibly controlling of Susan. And side note, crime junkies, if you can describe anyone you know as legendarily controlling, that's not cool. Never. Nearly every aspect of Susan's life was controlled by Josh. She couldn't use the family car without permission. She was made to keep a strict budget and after grocery shopping had to log every item and price on a spreadsheet. Wait, what? Yeah, this is... [12:06] This is incredible. Like, I have to submit an expense report for work, and I, like, I even hate doing that. If my husband made me have, like, a life expense report for our groceries, I would flip a table. It gets worse. She was made to knit her own socks instead of buying them, which I knit. [12:26] it can 100% be more expensive to make them. I was just going to say that. That's like literally like the epitome of control is because it's not about saving money. It's about just making someone do something that doesn't make sense just because you said to do it. [12:42] And on the note of things that don't make sense, when Susan was in labor with their first child, Josh told her she needed to call her parents for a ride to the hospital. He was busy. What? This guy. Oh my god. And she did. She called her parents. [12:58] They drove her to the hospital, and two hours after their first child... [13:03] Charlie was born. Josh shows up. He wasn't even there. Oh, oh, oh. [13:08] Do you want to know what he was too busy doing?

[13:11] Yes, no, I mean, no, but yes. [13:15] backing up his computer. [13:16] What? [13:17] Yep. That thing that I do when I like... [13:20] Go to sleep at night because I don't want to watch it happen. [13:23] Yeah, you don't watch your computer, but that's... [13:25] Oh my God. And it honestly gets more sad and I have to go into it because it... [13:29] it's pertinent to know. [13:31] But Josh even restricted what Susan and the boys were allowed to eat. One article said that Josh would tell Susan... [13:38] The boys already get one meal at daycare. Why should I have to feed them? They're just going to poop it out. That's not how, like, the human body works, Josh. And some of Susan's friends remember her calling them to borrow hot dogs because she literally didn't even have any food in the house to feed Charlie and Brayden. And they were so hungry that they were crying. Now, this is what I have such a hard time understanding, and I... [14:02] I don't claim to understand people like in an abusive relationship. I understand that the psychology of it. It's so hard to just walk away. But I always wonder as the friends seeing this, is it something in hindsight they're looking at and being like, oh, it was weird, I guess, that she would come to me and say they had no food. But why wasn't anyone saying anything? I mean, even if you can't get your friend to leave, there is a point when... [14:26] Do you call child services? I mean, I guess I don't know what the thing to do is there. How do you save your friend? [14:31] I see, and I'm looking at some of these accounts and like, [14:34] They're like, oh yeah, he was legendary for being controlling. And I'm like, that's why I said, like, guys, this isn't cool. Like, if you can say that about one of your friends...

[14:42] you need to talk to somebody in authority, right? [14:46] who can help intervene because that's not okay. That's not cool. If you can... [14:50] Honestly look at someone in your friend group and be like, [14:53] Yeah, like they are known for having this very restricted relationship to the point where it's notable. I can see it happening. Please tell someone. Like, please. We've had actually people reach out to us because we've done a couple of episodes where there are these kind of controlling relationships. And people have said it'd be really cool to have somebody on the show who is a specialist, whether it's a psychologist or a counselor who actually specializes in that. Because we don't know what to do. Like I said, it doesn't make sense to me, but I have no idea how to advise people. [15:23] relationship. [15:24] and you know where it's heading, [15:26] I have no idea, but it would be good to know. Crime Junkie Life rules. [15:30] Yeah, so this was the life that Susan led. And she tried to get Josh to go to counseling with her, and he agreed to. And then he went, but... [15:39] wouldn't participate and then stopped going altogether. Of course things were just getting worse. She made this really eerie home video. [15:47] And [15:48] I kind of found conflicting reports about what it was for. Some reports say that it was like a homeowner's insurance video where she was documenting... [15:57] like everything in their house, which is really common. Um, [16:01] other reports say that she... [16:04] was instructed to take the video under counsel. So she had like reached out to an attorney and, [16:10] And they were like, well, why don't you do this video and give it to us so we can like have this on account in case we ever need it for, you know, proving what you're saying is true.

[16:22] So I'm not really sure what it is. You can find it on YouTube. I probably won't play any clips here because... [16:26] I personally... [16:28] get super creeped out by it and it's [16:29] It seems very expletive to put it here. I wonder if she was considering getting a divorce because that seems like something you would do if you're trying to actually catalog all of your belongings. So that way, if you went to a divorce attorney and you guys were in the process of mediation or whatever it was, and he's trying to say, we have $5 to our name. And she's actually showing, OK, he has all of this like IT equipment. Well, and that's and that's what some of the reports are saying that like she had gone to an attorney and they were like, document everything. Yeah. Yeah. [16:59] that's an option but again I was finding kind of conflicting reports and her actual [17:05] speaking on the tape doesn't really make it super clear. So she's going through her house with a video camera and outlining everything they own and most of the big ticket items, multiple computers, you know, TVs, stuff like that, all belong to Josh. And she says that. [17:23] This is Josh's TV. This is Josh's, like, server room. This is all Josh's. And every once in a while while she's going through the house, she'll come across, like, a hole in the wall or... [17:34] her jewelry stand and it's just kind of broken. And she sort of shrugs and is like, "Yeah, Josh broke this." [17:41] Josh got mad and broke that. And like, it's the most normal thing in the world. Was he, do we know up until this point, was he violent with her or did he just have violent outbursts? It doesn't sound like he was ever physically violent with her,

[17:54] but he was at least verbally... [17:57] very explosive. Okay. [17:59] Once counseling fell through, Susan confronted Josh about not being happy in their marriage anymore. Obviously, he did not respond well to this, and she recounted he screamed that over his dead body, would he let her leave with his boys? And things never got better. Susan continued to live in fear of Josh, who micromanaged and controlled every aspect of her life, except her faith. Like his father before him, Josh turned his back on the church after he got married, but for some reason [18:29] problem with Susan continuing to attend and even let her take the boys with her, which is exactly what she did Sunday morning, December 6, 2009. She and the boys attended church that morning and walked home with a neighbor. As you know, she couldn't use the car unless she had permission. A friend from choir had come over that afternoon and hung out until Susan decided to lay down for a nap around 5 p.m. Around the same time their friend leaves, Josh said he was going to take the [18:59] morning of December 7th rolls around and the woman who owned the daycare where Charlie and Brayden were enrolled noticed that the boys were late. She actually mentioned that if Josh was dropping off the boys, it was pretty normal for them to be dropped off at like all hours of the morning, never any schedule. But Susan, who usually dropped them off, was like clockwork. So first they were late and then they didn't show up at all. So she starts calling the

[19:25] Susan and Josh's jobs and they both confirmed that neither parent had showed up for work and neither of them had called in [19:34] So the daycare owner goes back to her paperwork and starts calling the emergency contact, one of Josh's sisters who lives with their mom. Josh's sister answers... [19:44] And... [19:45] Doesn't know where they are. Asks their mom. She doesn't know where anybody is. So they call the police and head over to Josh and Susan's house. And they actually authorized the police to break into the house, fearing the family had died in their sleep due to carbon monoxide poisoning, which had been weirdly happening like super frequently in the area. But the police break in and find the house empty and... [20:13] really untouched. It was like [20:15] They were there a second ago. The only oddity is... [20:19] two box fans were set up and turned on, blowing on two wet spots on the carpet. Wait, what? Yeah. Like... [20:27] How big were the wet spots? I couldn't find anything on it. And... [20:33] A lot of the articles that I read and things that I watched and listened to about this basically kind of say it's not crazy. It's Utah in the winter. Like we both live in a state that gets a lot of snow in the winter. For carpets to be wet. [20:48] isn't crazy, but for it to be wet enough to set up two box fans is insane. Seems a bit much. The only time I've ever known anyone to use box fans are when they have basement flooding. Exactly. When they have a basement and it floods. I thought the same thing.

[21:06] Nobody sets up box fans in the middle of their... [21:09] like living room [21:12] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [21:31] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now. [21:38] wherever you get your podcasts. [21:41] That's not a thing. That's not a thing. And these cops should have had alarm bells going off in every direction. Right. [21:48] So now both sides of the family are frantically calling both Josh and Susan's cell phones with no answers. But then finally, Josh and the boys roll into the driveway around 5 or 6 p.m. that night. The entire neighborhood has been looking for them. So someone's like, Josh, you need to go to the police and be like... [22:06] I'm okay. Did he not have a cell phone? They were calling the cell phones. Oh, okay. So Josh goes to the West Valley City Police and checks in. And when he gets there, they're like, dude... [22:17] where were you? And that's when Josh starts telling his story. He says that, like he said, around 5 or 6 p.m. on Sunday night, he took the boys sledding. They got home. They watched a movie. He thinks it's one of the Santa Claus movies. He can't remember which one. And around midnight, he decided to take the boys camping because they really wanted s'mores. Wait, what? Right.

[22:42] Wait, I'm sorry. First of all, how old are these kids? Two and four. And you want to go camping at midnight? [22:49] In December, in Utah. Side note, in the middle of a blizzard. Wait, a blizzard? Yeah. [22:56] Because the boys wanted s'mores. That you can make in the microwave. [22:59] That they should be sleeping anyway, so it doesn't matter. You don't have to give two and four-year-olds everything they want all the time. Also, this dude doesn't feed them in general. Why does he want to give them s'mores all of a sudden? Ooh, good point. Anyway, Susan was still asleep in the house, but he packed up the kids anyway and went to the Simpson Springs Campground, which is about two hours away from where they lived. So, yeah, middle of a snowstorm, and the police are like... [23:22] Okay. [23:24] Uh-huh. [23:25] Why didn't you call into work? [23:28] And Josh is like, [23:29] Oh. [23:30] Today's Monday? [23:32] I thought yesterday was Saturday, so I didn't think I had to work today. [23:37] That... [23:38] No! [23:39] That's not a thing. [23:41] Yeah, and police aren't really buying it either. And while they're interviewing him, they don't tell him, but they actually dispatched officers to Simpson Springs Campground to verify that Josh had built a campfire there for s'mores. And the main reason they did this was because he was specific about the s'mores. He mentioned that he got there, built the fire, and he was like, oh, I don't know. [24:03] got the marshmallows out, and realized he had forgotten the chocolate for the s'mores. So they just had, like, marshmallow and graham cracker sandwiches. So it's two in the morning. Mm-hmm.

[24:13] And he's got his two-year-old and his four-year-old. Giving them sugar. [24:17] In a blizzard. [24:19] Yes. [24:20] How many people were other people even at this campground? Is this a thing that people in Utah do? I need everyone to tweet us who lives in Utah because I cannot even fathom. This is real. We have blizzards here in Indiana. [24:31] And I would never consider going camping, well, ever in them. I don't go to the grocery store. [24:37] when it's blizzarding. [24:39] I don't go anywhere at two in the morning with a two and a four year old when it's blizzarding. This is all insane. I don't know how everyone's alarm bells aren't going off. [24:48] So they had dispatched officers to this campground to see if, I mean, if he had built a fire, you know, what? [24:54] 12 hours before. [24:56] There would be evidence of it. And they found no evidence that anyone had been camping in this campground there for a while. [25:03] Yeah, because it's... [25:05] Friggin' December. [25:06] Yeah, no, no one's doing it. [25:08] At this point, law enforcement tell Josh that... [25:10] While they're thankful that he and the boys are home safely, Susan still hasn't been accounted for. [25:17] And Josh assures the officer that she's probably just at work and is fine. [25:21] We've already checked there. She's not there. She never came in. And Josh doesn't freak out at all. [25:30] He's just like, I'll check in with some friends and family. I'm sure she just took the day off knowing I was camping with the boys. [25:37] Somehow... [25:39] the police miraculously decide to consider Susan a missing person. Thank God. And ask Josh to come back in tomorrow for a formal interview. Thank God.

[25:48] The next day, Josh calls his father-in-law, tells him Susan is missing, and Josh is going in for an interview. [25:55] and [25:56] Josh gets there. [25:58] The police ask a lot of the same questions, and Josh gives a lot of the same answers. [26:04] They... [26:04] still aren't happy with them. [26:07] They're so not happy with what he's trying to sell them that they actually issue a search warrant for his house. I don't mean to skip over all the little stuff, but in most ways, it's your typical missing persons case. There are vigils, and both sides of the family defend Josh, and everyone is passing out flyers and posts on social media, and everyone... [26:28] trying to bring Susan home. Wait, that's actually really interesting. So Susan's family was supporting Josh at this point? Yeah. Yeah. [26:36] Everyone was backing Josh. There was no reason in their minds for him to have been involved at all. He... [26:42] was an innocent guy taking his [26:44] Toddlers camping at midnight in a snowstorm, as one does. Were her family not aware of all the things that her friends say were happening? It seems like not. And to a certain extent, I kind of get it. Like, you don't want... Like, you can share with your friends your issues, but... [27:02] you feel like a disappointment to your family if you share them with them. [27:05] Does that make sense? It does. You tend to shelter your family because especially if you're not planning on leaving the person, like you want them to like them. Yeah, and like her family didn't like Josh in the first place. Like she wasn't going to give them... [27:16] anything to fan that flame.

[27:18] So a week goes by, and on December 14th, Josh is scheduled to attend a third formal interview with the police. But instead, he hires an attorney and skips the interview. Which again, like, I will admit, I'm a total hypocrite because that's the exact move I would do. But because he did it, I want to say he's mad guilty. Well, and here's something that makes me feel... [27:41] unfortunately somehow aligned with Josh. He skips the interview, but does agree to give them a DNA sample. Okay. And the case just goes cold. The police don't feel good about Josh, but don't have anything pointing to him either. Just his kind of screwball story. [27:59] Throughout the rest of December, Josh actually ends up going back up to Washington to stay with his dad for the holidays. [28:05] And because of all the trauma in his life, he gets let go from his job and... [28:10] decides to move in with his dad. [28:12] permanently. In early January, Josh and his brother Michael drive back down to West Valley City and pack up the house. And Josh just moves to Puyallup, familiar city. Why are we always talking about Puyallup? Puyallup, I am so sorry. I'm sorry. [28:27] I told Ashley as I was researching this, we aren't going to be doing any more Washington cases for a while because I feel like we've been picking on you very unintentionally. So... [28:37] It is always Puyallup. Jeez. I had never heard of Puyallup until we started Crime Junkies. And it's all I can talk about. And now it's where all the crimes happen. Yeah. King County. I had never even heard of Puyallup until the Misty case. And Ashley, I don't know if you remember, but we practiced saying that, the city name, like... 400 times. A lot. So, because we wanted to do Washington right. And now I can say Puyallup in my sleep. So... Yeah, we're talking about Puyallup and King County every other episode, I feel like.

[29:07] Sorry, you guys. No more Washington for a while. We'll pick on another state soon. So he and his brother move all of Josh and the boys' stuff up to Puyallup. The police are still looking into him and get a search for the family minivan that he supposedly took out camping that fateful night. And independent search teams continue to comb the Utah Hills for any trace of Susan. [29:37] They don't get anything in the van. That's the only car that they own, right? Right. Right. [29:40] That's kind of shocking. So on February 15th, over two months after Susan went missing, her friends and family call a press conference. And this is when they begin to tell the public the truth about Josh and Susan's relationship. They outlined Susan's fear of Josh, his controlling and demeaning manner towards her, his desire to undermine anything she seemed to do, and most damning... [30:08] Susan's vow to leave Josh if things hadn't improved by April 6th, their wedding anniversary. So do you think in these two months that her family had started talking to her friends and actually finding this stuff out if we didn't think that they knew this before? Yes, because this is really the first time Susan's family starts distancing themselves from Josh. But it was super difficult for them to do. And... [30:32] All the reports that I read said that the only reason that it was hard was because...

[30:38] their grandchildren were still in the care and custody of this man that was now revealed to be a monster, at least towards their daughter. God, that's got to be so conflicting. Right. So they think this guy is terrible. [30:51] But they have to kind of buddy up to him if they ever want to see their grandsons again. Searches continue and continue to turn up empty. But on the first anniversary of Susan's disappearance, Josh and his family get somehow weirder than before. In an interview that Josh and his father Steve do together, they claim that Susan had been in a long-term affair with a local journalist who had gone missing around the same time as Susan. [31:21] had run off to Brazil together. Wait, Josh's family is saying this? Josh and his father, specifically. Those two are looney tunes. And there is zero evidence supporting this claim outside the fact that they are both missing persons from Utah. [31:39] So there was actually a journalist who was missing. Yeah, but the journalist was last seen on a security camera alone, and there's no link connecting these two in life. Weird. There's no reason for them to have ever had contact. I mean, we know now that Josh is a super controlling person. He would have had... [32:00] a pulse on every aspect of Susan's communication. Yes. There would be proof somewhere that she had contact with this guy, right? Absolutely.

[32:10] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. So [32:29] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now. [32:36] wherever you get your podcasts. [32:39] Josh and Steve even published a website that was listed as the official website of Susan Powell, which sounds like it's going to be like a fine Susan website, right? Yeah. But it was all slanderous about her character and what kind of mother she was. And basically saying she was this seductress who hated her children and hated her life in Utah. [33:06] she was this terrible person. Just awful, awful things about this woman. So this guy has a missing wife, and instead of actually trying to find her, he sets up a website that is basically a character assassination of her? Yep. Yep. [33:20] Wow. [33:21] And then about six months later, these two decide they're going to publish segments of Susan's childhood and teenage journals. Why? To expose what a sexual deviant she was. What does this have to do with anything? Nothing. Steve even tells stories about how Susan would try to seduce him when he had them in his home. And how, this is the creepiest quote to me. He said they shared a quote, father-in-law, daughter-in-law, flirting.

[33:51] with each other. Maybe some sexual touching. What? Frankly... [33:56] I liked it. [33:58] End quote. I want to be clear. [34:01] We both have... Not a thing. Yeah. We both have father-in-laws. And there is no such thing... [34:08] as a flirty relationship with your father-in-law where you enjoy some sexual touching. Not a thing. No, not a real thing. And everyone's just like accepting this? Or what is the public thinking at this point? Because this is insane to me. Well, Utah and Washington actually both issue warrants for the home that Steve has where Josh and the boys are living. And when they execute the search, they find hard drive after hard drive, [34:38] Mm-hmm. [34:38] full [34:40] of child pornography. Wait, what? Yeah. Wait, did it belong to Steve or did it belong to Josh? It all belonged to Steve. And in addition to child pornography, they find thousands of images of Susan... [34:53] taken without her knowledge. Like in day-to-day life or compromising positions? Kind of both. [35:01] Just very voyeuristic, creepy, stalkery photos. What is going on? Steve is arrested and eventually charged with 14 counts of voyeurism, possessions of... [35:14] possession of child pornography, all sorts of really disgusting charges like that. Yeah, and I assume, I mean, I hope he got arrested right away, but I assume they would also say that Josh and his kids can't be around him. Right. So even though this whole time Josh has been a publicly announced person of interest in their mother's disappearance, this is the thing that causes Charlie and Brayden to be removed from their father's care.

[35:44] released into Susan's parents' care. And Susan's parents note that both the boys had become physically violent with each other and become even more defiant. Like at this point, they're four and six, I believe. Their maternal grandparents had had some contact with them, but Josh was really kind of keeping them away because he didn't want them around the people who raised the sexual deviant of their mother when really they were living with one. Exactly. [36:14] may have just been the trauma of losing a parent at a young age, but the Cox family really put it back to the time that the boys had spent with their father and... [36:24] their paternal grandfather. And at one point, Charlie, the oldest, drew a picture of the family minivan with everybody in it and was pointing out, you know, this is daddy. This is Charlie. This is Brayden. Oh my God, stop it. And then cryptically, he said, oh my God, mommy is in the trunk. [36:43] I know. [36:44] My heart just sank into my butt. That is... [36:46] How else do you take that? Right. So because they were technically in state care while being placed with their grandparents, Josh still technically had parental rights to them. But before he could regain custody, Josh was ordered to undergo extensive parental and psychological evaluations before he was even allowed to think about getting that custody back. At one point, law enforcement found simulated child pornography on Josh's computer.

[37:16] but pretending like they're younger. - It's somehow weirder than that. [37:22] They aren't actually photographic images. They're renderings or drawings. So it was more or less like [37:31] cartoon children? The internet is a dark place. Yeah. Yeah. [37:36] And here's the darkest part of this. Because they weren't technically photographs, there was nothing illegal about them. And he's like in the process of getting his kids back. Right. Though they couldn't arrest him for anything, it prompted the state to order an additional psychosexual evaluation for Josh. Through all this, though, Josh was still granted frequent supervised visits with his sons. [38:06] to a certain degree, with some supervised visit situations. And they're honestly pretty standard. You usually go to a neutral environment, sometimes the parent or a family member's home. Sometimes there's transportation, like in this case, but sometimes there's not. And for Charlie and Brayden, Josh and their maternal grandfather, Susan's dad, actually had had multiple public altercations and actually had restraining orders against each other. So having the social worker act as the go-between [38:36] because [38:37] truly the safest option in this situation. So this takes us back to where we started our story. When Josh slammed the door in the social worker's face, remember she smelled gasoline and that is red flags all over the place. She tries the handle, but it's locked and she can hear Charlie and Brayden yelling. She can tell they're in distress and she's banging and screaming on the door, yelling for Josh to open it. And she decides to call 911.

[39:03] Hey, I'm on a supervised visitation for a court-ordered visit, and something really weird has happened. The kids went into the house, and the biological parent, whose name is Josh Powell, will not let me in the door. [39:17] What should I do? John Kosco: What's the address? [39:19] It's 8119, and I think it's 89th. I don't know what the address is. Okay. That's pretty important for me to know. [39:29] Sorry, I can't. Just a minute. Let me get in my car and see if I can find it. I'm... [39:35] This. [39:36] Nothing like this has ever happened before at [39:40] So I'm really shocked and I could hear one of the kids crying, but he still wouldn't let me in. But I think I need help right away. He's on a very short leash with CFHS and CPS has been involved and this is the craziest thing. He looked right at me and closed the door. [40:02] Are you down? Yes, ma'am. I'm just waiting to know where you are. Okay. It's 8-1-1. And I swear, she got the same 9-1-1 operator, Tom Ryder, back in episode 38 I got. They were completely unhelpful. [40:15] And I'd like to pull out of the driveway because I smell gasoline and he won't let me in. You want to pull out of the driveway because you smell gasoline, but he won't let you... I smell... he won't let me in. He won't let you out of the driveway? He won't let me in the house. [40:31] I've got the kids in the house and he won't let me in. It's a supervised visit.

[40:35] I understand. Whose house is it? [40:38] Josh Powell. Okay, so you don't live there, right? [40:41] No, I don't -- no, I'm contracted to the state to provide supervised visitation. I see. [40:47] Okay. [40:48] And who is there to exercise their visitation? [40:52] I am, and the visit is with Josh Powell. And who's supervising? And he's the husband that I supervise. [41:00] So, you supervise and you're doing the visit? [41:02] You're supervising yourself? [41:05] I supervise myself. I'm the supervisor here. [41:08] Wait a minute. [41:09] If it's a supervised visit, you can't supervise yourself. [41:12] I do supervise myself. I'm the supervisor for the supervised visit. [41:17] Okay, well, aren't you the one making the visit? Or is there another parent that you're [41:23] I'm the one that supervises. I pick up the kids that are grandparents. [41:28] Yeah? [41:30] And then who visits with the children? [41:32] For some reason, this operator could not comprehend what the social worker was trying to convey. He thinks she's trying to supervise her own visit, and he tells her she can't do that. And finally, she says... [41:46] No, I'm here with Josh Powell. He's holding his kids hostage. I smell gasoline. This guy is dangerous and I need help. And you have to remember, this is the biggest case to hit this area of the country in the past two years. And everyone should likely know who this guy is. This guy's name has been all over the news. His face has been on every television screen.

[42:16] I'm on operator. The social worker is literally telling the guy, [42:19] I don't feel safe. I smelled gas. I'm going to pull my car away from the house. I'm afraid of what could happen next. And over the next six minutes on the phone, the operator finally says, [42:33] Okay, how long will it be? John Kosco: I don't know, ma'am. They have to respond to emergency life-threatening situations first. [42:39] the first available deputy. This could be life-threatening. He went to court on Wednesday and [42:45] he didn't get his kids back. And [42:48] This is really... [42:49] I'm afraid for their lives. Okay. Has he threatened the lives of the children previously? [42:55] I have no idea. All right. We'll have the first available to have a deputy contact you. What is he not understanding? I don't know. This call is infuriating. She eventually is like, "Okay, whatever. Thanks." Hangs up. But shortly after hanging up, [43:11] the house explodes into flames. [43:14] I'm am where you calling about the fire in the 8200 block yeah I'm out man I know the okay you know the exact address of the house or yeah it's at 119 189 feet [43:28] Court is two hours. Okay, okay. Do you know if anyone's in the house? [43:32] Yes, there was a man and two children. I just dropped off the children and he wouldn't let me in the door. Okay, stay on line for the fire department. Okay, I'm going to get them on the line. Do not hang up. Hold on. So she calls back in. She finally gets someone to take her seriously. And about 13 minutes later, emergency responders arrive and eventually control the burn. But it's too late. Keep in mind, it's almost, it's over 20 minutes since her first call.

[43:59] Because they were too busy dealing with life-threatening emergencies, Brett. Right. But now Josh, Charlie, and Brayden are all dead. [44:06] dead. And [44:08] This is really gruesome, so I'm sorry, but the boys had hatchet marks in their head and necks. Hatchet marks? And it's later discovered that the boys died of smoke inhalation. Not. [44:21] the Hatcher injuries. [44:23] Oh my god. So he... [44:26] hits them with hatchets. [44:28] And then, [44:30] Sets the house on fire where these boys are still alive? Yes. And we later find out that Josh had emailed his custody attorney, along with some family members, apologizing for everyone that he's hurt and saying, I love you and goodbye. And... [44:46] It's total speculation that he's also admitting to being involved with Susan's disappearance, but a lot of people believe that that's something that was like an undertone of these emails. [44:58] I can't even, I'm having a hard time even like moving on because [45:01] the way that the boys died. It's like... [45:04] I it's so so horrific if you're gonna blow up I mean if you're gonna blow up the house I don't I guess I don't understand why why didn't he just right like if he was gonna blow up the house why didn't he just leave it at that it's so violent [45:17] Or if you're going to... Like... If you didn't want them to suffer in a fire... [45:21] Why not? I mean, I don't... [45:24] I don't have really words. I'm sorry. [45:26] No, I completely understand. And honestly, the story kind of ends there. Susan's disappearance case is open for another year before the police feel like they have...

[45:38] They know it was Josh. They can't prosecute him. They can't necessarily prove it. But there's no one else who would have done this to her. And they don't believe she walked away from her life without her boys and just disappeared in the air by choice. And there's no indication he gave in his letter. I mean, if he didn't admit to doing something to her. He never explicitly admitted to anything about Susan. So there's no way for them to even find her. Did they ever track his cell phone data correctly? [46:05] I couldn't find that they did, but there was also some speculation into his brother. I mentioned earlier that his brother Michael helped him move from West Valley City. And the police look into him because the car that he used to move Josh from West Valley City back to Puyallup, he sold to salvage right after that move. And that would explain why they never found anything in Josh's van. Right. And he had been asked, and I'm not sure if it was by police or by the media, [46:35] he would tell if he knew anything about Susan. And he said, absolutely not. And what's really strange, twisted, telling is exactly a year after Josh killed both himself and murdered his sons, his brother Michael jumps off a seven-story parking garage to his death. Oh my god, he [47:00] Holy cow. [47:01] Did he leave a note or anything? No note. [47:05] No explanation. No emails even.

[47:08] Oh my god. [47:09] So what happened with their dad, Steve? He was in prison for a long time. He eventually got out and died of natural causes. [47:18] never saying anything about what may or may not have happened to Susan Powell. [47:23] And so no one's found Susan. She's just out there somewhere? [47:27] Yep. [47:28] Or her body is, I guess. [47:30] Brett, this one was so dark. I know. I was going to say we can do a light one next, but... Ugh, there's no such thing. Yeah. Wow. [47:38] if you all are gluttons for punishment and you want to hear the entire 9-1-1 call or see that video of susan cataloging the items in her house you can go to our website crimejunkiepodcast.com we will have links to all of those also today's the first we released [48:08] dot com slash crime junkie we'll also be releasing two more episodes at the 10 and 20 level later this month if you want to follow us on twitter or instagram we are at crime junkie pod on twitter and at crime junkie podcast on instagram and you guys i would really suggest following us on social we are about to announce the store opening again and the people following us on social and in our newsletter will be the first to hear about that so make sure you guys are following us if you need

[48:38] We'll see you all next week for a brand new, very special episode of Crime Junkie. [48:50] This episode of Crime Junkie was written and hosted by Brit. All of the editing and production was done by David Flowers. And all of our music, including our theme, comes from Justin Daniel. Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? [49:08] Okay, crime junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? [49:27] It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now and I've been listening for years. [49:31] I think you'll love it too. [49:32] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.