Graham Platner Isn't Backing Down

[00:00] Pod Save America is brought to you by Axe Blue. [00:02] Here on Pod Save America, we're all about cutting through the noise to get clear on what's really happening and what we can do about it. ActBlue provides Democrats up and down the ballot with the tools they need to run effective campaigns and win. Fundraise, organize, build campaign websites and donate with solutions that are easy to use. ActBlue has been there through our country's biggest moments. [00:20] And our partners at Vote Save America create digital fundraising pages on the ActBlue platform for initiatives like the Anxiety Relief Program and the Flip the House Fund. [00:27] It's so easy to create the donation pages and you can add features like goal tracking monitors and design custom branding and the funds are processed quickly and safely. ActBlue never sells your data or your personal information. They focus on security so you can focus on what matters most, like winning. So whether you're running for office or want to make an impact, ActBlue has the tools you need to make it happen. Because the right time to get involved is right now. [00:49] Donate, organize, and raise money for candidates and causes you believe in at actblue.com slash crooked. [01:16] Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Jon Favreau. Our guest this Sunday is Graham Plattner, who's running for Senate in Maine. [01:27] at Mills that will be decided in June, and the winner will try to finally defeat Susan Collins in November.

[01:33] Graham has been on the show before. You might remember that his interview with Tommy in October is where he revealed that he got a skull and crossbones tattoo as a young Marine, that he says he later learned... [01:44] was a Nazi symbol, and right after his PSA appearance, he got the tattoo covered up. I, of course, asked about that, but I mainly wanted to learn more about what Graham Plattner actually believes about politics, what life experiences shaped his beliefs, what his theory of change is, what kind of a person he is, and what kind of a senator he'd be. All important questions, because despite the early controversies over the tattoo and his long trail of Reddit posts, [02:12] Plattner didn't just decide to stay in the race. [02:14] He's now the frontrunner, at least according to the polling averages and fundraising totals. At the very least, judging by the crowds he's getting and the organization he's building, he will be a formidable challenger to Mills, and this will be a very competitive and much-discussed primary in the months ahead. [02:32] With that said, [02:33] I really enjoyed the conversation. [02:35] And I hope you do too. [02:37] Here's Graham Plattner. Graham Plattner. [02:44] Good to see you. Thanks a lot. It's good to be here. Welcome back. It's good to have you here in person. No, it's an absolute pleasure, man. [02:50] You've been running for Senate for six months? Yeah, we launched the campaign on August 19th. Okay. So, yeah, whatever that is now, around that. You've gone from a completely unknown challenger to rising star to scandal-plagued candidate who faced calls to drop out to fundraising leader and maybe, if you believe the latest polls, frontrunner. Yeah. It's been quite the whirlwind.

[03:20] since you started running? What have you taken away so far from this journey? What I've taken away, I mean, I was already pretty cynical about money and politics, and that cynicism has just been supercharged. I mean, it is like, and the problem is, like, you clearly need to raise money to compete for this stuff. But there is just a whole apparatus that seems to exist just to suck up money. And, like, that has been... [03:46] really eye-opening. I mean, the political industrial complex, so the campaign industrial complex, whatever you want to call it. And it is this kind of like, it's a wild thing to actually interact with personally. I mean, we're lucky because our fundraising has been so much small dollar stuff. And because frankly, the establishment of [04:06] even my party wants nothing to do with me. It kind of keeps all of that at arm's length, like automatically. So I'm not that, that mad, but you like just interacting with it. It's like, man, this is, there's a whole industry around this stuff. Is it the time suck? That's really, it's the time. Totally. And, and like, it's, I, I, I'm not going to say I understand why people go the kind of like corporate pack, dark money route. Cause I, I mean, just ideologically, I can never really grasp that. But, [04:35] But from a practical perspective, there is an element where I can see someone who might not have the same sort of political foundation that I have. I mean, if somebody comes along and says, hey, you never have to make a phone call again, and you don't have to go beg anybody for money, I can see someone being like, oh, well, that would mean that I could do more.

[04:54] other stuff. Right. Um, [04:56] Although, I mean, that's not in any way, shape, or form remotely worth it. [05:05] There's just kind of interacting with the whole process. [05:08] media landscape and political world. [05:11] as a pretty normal guy up until August. And so like, that's a whole wild experience. Like I open my phone and see my name. And I'm like, I don't know. No, no, no. I don't want to see that. Like, it's just this very and it's not always good. Not mostly good. No, it's it's it's it's such a yeah, it's a very like, just very surreal. [05:31] And I also very much understand why... [05:36] I guess the biggest lesson I've learned is... [05:40] And structurally, it's borderline impossible for regular people to pull this off. [05:44] If you're a regular human being with not a lot of money and having lived a pretty normal life who doesn't want to just get your entire existence ripped to pieces, I can see why people don't want to do this. I think about that often, especially with people our age and younger, and everyone younger. [06:14] found out. Yeah. You've said quite a bit about politics in your time and everyone knows now. And everybody knows. I mean, like, and for me, like it's a, when I got into this thing, I, I'm an elder millennial. I've spent most of my life on the internet. I was well aware when the moment I said yes to this whole experience that somebody was going to come along with a bunch of resources and dig up every single thing I ever did on the internet and try to use it. Like I knew that was coming.

[06:40] And when it came, I was happy to talk about it because, quite frankly, I think it's a pretty standard story of – [06:47] people that aren't trying to get into politics or just regular human beings in general, you go through phases in life. Yeah. You believe things when you're younger, you say things, you do things, and then you learn new things. And then you change and then you become... [07:01] a different version of yourself, which, I mean, in my experience, is pretty much just like what most people go through. So it was actually very kind of ironic that... [07:10] That whole thing... [07:11] blew up as if it was this huge scandal. And in reality, I think it actually really strengthened the [07:16] the campaign because a lot of people could like directly engage with that feeling of like, yeah, I have not, most of us have, you know, [07:26] not always been who we are today. And we also have to very much understand that if we're going to build a better future, we need to [07:34] keep an opening for a lot of people to change. [07:37] Because if we're all stuck right now in some ossified political thought and nobody's capable of changing – [07:42] And then what's the point of doing any of this? Yeah. No. And look, we appreciate you coming on here. I know you talked to Tommy in an interview, which became part of the story because he asked you about a lot of the old posts. He also asked you. And then you talked about the tattoo. Yeah. You've since had the tattoo covered up. Yeah, I had it covered up like two days after that. I remember. I remember a few weeks after that, I had a main voter who I know say to me, I like Plattner. I'm leaning Plattner.

[08:12] but then they said, you know, my concern is I saw that a few people left his campaign. One of them said Plattner knew the tattoo was a Nazi symbol when he started running. Someone else told CNN the same thing. I'm just wondering if I can trust him. Now, if you win the primary... [08:28] Because I'm sure you've probably met up, been able to meet a lot of primary voters just campaigning around Maine. And general voters. Maine's not very big. Right. If you win, of course, Super PACs will run millions of dollars of ads to this effect. Can we trust him? Is he telling the truth? What about all these positions to reach voters who aren't politically engaged or aren't as politically engaged or aware as maybe some of the voters who've come to your events? Yep. What will your response be? And what is your... [08:58] strategy to push back. So this response is going to be exactly what it was, which is like, I'm happy to talk about all this stuff. I, when that whole thing started, it like never crossed any of our minds to like run away from it. [09:11] It was just kind of like, no, I mean, this is part of my life. And in many ways, it's kind of part of my political journey. And so I'm happy to discuss it. [09:21] One... [09:23] What we're doing in Maine is we are truly trying to build a [09:29] real on the ground. [09:31] organized, broad coalition of, frankly, working class power. [09:37] And [09:38] In the doing of that, in a state that's as small as Maine is, [09:42] By the time we get to the general, I'm going to have either directly connected with a substantial portion of the electorate.

[09:49] or [09:50] a bunch of people who are just going to tell their friends. And the way Maine tends to work is that people trust their friends and their neighbors more than they trust, uh, TV ads from, uh, [10:01] political groups. And part of our strategy, quite frankly, is just to cut through all of it by engaging as many people as possible and, and, [10:11] personally interacting with his mouth. I do three to six public events a day. I mean, I do not sleep much. And that's fine. You might, you might meet everyone in Maine. We very well might meet everyone in Maine. And we go everywhere. I mean, this is not like, uh, I got, we're not doing some kind of weird math about like, Oh, we were, we've got our wind number and we're only going to focus on that. Like for me, [10:33] We truly need to change politics. And to do that, we have to engage with everybody, even people who we might not agree with, even people who might initially be very either resistant or hesitant or even oppositional to the message. Although we found that when we do engage with those folks, we have a lot of common ground. [10:51] Have you had conversations with people who are skeptical about all the tattoo stuff or any of the old Reddit posts or any of that? Oh, yeah. How do those go? They go great. I mean, because I explain it, and frankly, most people are like, that all sounds... [11:06] eminently reasonable. [11:08] And [11:09] And I think in Maine, folks, I don't know how to say this, but [11:14] When people meet me, they tend to be like, okay, so he seems exactly like a normal human being. So it's helpful. It's helpful. So there's that. And then, I mean, honestly, we're also just going to push back on TV. Yeah.

[11:27] Um, primarily like with messaging that's positive. I mean, I really, I'm, [11:33] I know that once we get through the primary that the whole thing is going to – I mean, there's so much money is going to get spent on this race, which drives me insane. Yeah. Because if I had my way, we would just take that money and write everybody and make a check. I know. Frankly, we'd be better off. Every cycle when you hear how much is being spent on the biggest Senate races. It's nuts. You're just like, oh, what a fucking – Although I will say for us, the way that we kind of fight back against that is we're like – [11:55] We're building an on the ground organizing apparatus. So a lot of we hire Mainers and we're going to we're going to have Mainers learn how to be organizers in their communities and like have them on staff. Like we want the money that we spend to primarily be spent in Maine, not just give it to some D.C. consulting firm that makes it another stupid ad that we've all seen a thousand times. It just changes little things. But we all know exactly what they are. [12:23] So by... [12:25] By building that and by sticking to a very, like... [12:29] cogent, constructive message. [12:33] of the kind of future we want to build. [12:35] the kind of policies that are going to get us there, and a theory of power building that is also going to be necessary to get us there. I think that's how we push through all this stuff. And in my experience – [12:48] Like negative TV ads... [12:51] I don't think they actually moved the needle much in May. In 2020, [12:56] The Sarah Gideon race outspent the Collins race almost 3-1. Yeah. Yeah.

[13:01] They had some money left over. They had some money left over. An immense amount of money was spent on negative ads about Susan Collins. [13:08] It didn't do anything. And honestly, living in the part of Maine I live in, which is rural eastern Maine, a lot of the negative ads about Sarah Gideon also didn't change anything. It was really more about like a feeling on the ground. People couldn't really connect with people. [13:23] With the Democratic candidate, I think D.C. came in and ran the race like an old school D.C. race, which. [13:30] is not going to win against Susan Collins. And Collins was a known entity. [13:34] And at that point, people could still sort of frame her as this sort of moderate. Roe had not yet been overturned, which is really important to remember. Mm-hmm. [13:43] And I think that that to me just shows that it's not really about the ads or even the money spent. There's another – there's an X factor in there about – [13:53] connecting with people and about really being able to make people think that you are, or not think, but letting people engage with you directly to show that you are like authentic. And which is why I mean, we hold, we've held 40 town halls, and we're going to hold 20 more before the primary, and we're going to hold a bunch more after that, like making myself accessible. [14:17] in a way that isn't controlled, [14:20] Like we don't screen questions at these things. People just come and I literally pick on folks who raise their hands. It drives the comms team insane. They are terrified. But I think that's how you make yourself accessible. And we need politics to be accessible again.

[14:35] to regular folks. So you're running against Janet Mills. She is a, you know, a popular governor who, you know, who's accomplished quite a bit in comparison to other governors, even other Democratic governors, big health care expansion, free community college, more school funding. Yeah. [14:51] What governing decisions has Janet Mills made that you disagree with? So... [14:56] If... [14:57] If anything, I'm very much a labor candidate. I believe in the need to strengthen unions. I believe in the power of organized labor within our society to advocate, not just for like their union members, but kind of for the working class in general. The governor has. [15:14] She's effectively vetoed every single pro-labor bit of legislation that's come across her desk. She's been an opponent of labor. I mean, right now I have, I forget how many, but a bunch of union endorsements. By the time it gets to the primary, we're probably going to have the vast majority of unions in Maine. [15:33] Because they have a not great relationship with the governor. And, you know, to me, like we need to pass the Pro Act. We need to expand the NLRB or have, you know, we need to expand labor courts and have an NLRB that actually acts as a good faith intermediary and like unfair labor practice disputes, which right now, I mean, it doesn't even have a quorum right now. So it's all not functioning. [15:55] And like someone who's vetoed pro labor legislation over and over and over again, to me, is not someone that's like going to go to the mattresses to fight for it in D.C.

[16:05] I also think that [16:07] Maine has a very... [16:09] fraught relationship with the Wabanaki nations. We have a specific law from 1980, which does not extend to the main tribes. [16:20] the same protections that all other 570 nationally federally recognized tribes get. So it means that [16:27] The main tribes have to [16:29] spend a bunch of money on lobbyists in Washington, D.C. Because for legislation to impact them, they need to be named. [16:37] specifically. So they have to have people in Washington to make sure that Maliseet, Penobscot, [16:43] Passamaquoddy, that that gets added [16:47] as words into bills. There have been multiple attempts to fix this, and the governor has opposed all of them, both as attorney general and as governor. So to me, that is also a pretty fundamental issue [16:59] difference around, I don't like a foundation of political philosophy. Like I do not see expanding tribal sovereignty in Maine. [17:07] as a bad thing at all. I think it's good, and I also think it's morally the correct thing to do, since we have been... [17:14] not good faith actors in our relationships with the tribes. [17:18] And so like there are, and then last but not least, and this, [17:21] A rather big one, I think, is I think we have to tax the rich. [17:24] And the governor's vetoed multiple bipartisan bills, some written by Republicans that were trying to raise taxes on the wealthy in Maine, creating three new tax brackets was completely reasonable. And the governor vetoed that. And again, that just doesn't show a commitment to going after Republicans.

[17:42] where the money is, um, which I think as we move into this next phase in American history, um, [17:48] I think that that's going to have to be like a pretty foundational element. [17:52] of our politics going forward. [18:03] Pod Save America is brought to you by Fast Growing Trees. Did you know Fast Growing Trees is America's largest and most trusted online industry with thousands of trees and plants and over 2 million happy customers? [18:11] They have all the plants your yard or home needs, including fruit trees, privacy trees, flowering trees, shrubs. [18:16] And houseplants, all grown with care and guaranteed to arrive healthy. It's like your local nursery, but anywhere you live with more plants than you'll find anywhere else. Whatever you're looking for, Fast Growing Trees helps you find options that actually work for your climate, space, and lifestyle. Fast Growing Trees makes it easy to get your dream yard. Just click order grow. [18:31] and get healthy, thriving plants delivered to your door. Their Alive and Thrive guarantee promises that your plants thrive happy and healthy. No green thumb required, just quality plants you can count on. Plus, get ongoing support from trained plant experts who can help you plan your landscape, choose the right plants, and learn how to care for them every step of the way. We're huge fans of fast-growing trees. It's a great way to get really nice plants and shrubs for your yard. [18:53] It's hard to figure out what to do because there's so many plants out there these days. Yeah, a lot of plants. Hard to figure out what to choose. Need some help. [19:00] You don't need a big yard or a lot of space. You can grow lemon, avocado, olive, or fig trees indoors along with a wide variety of houseplants, all grown with care and hand-selected to thrive in your home. The experts at Fast Growing Trees have curated thousands of plants for every climate and growing zone so customers can find options that truly work for their yard. Right now, they're having a great deal on spring planting essentials up to half off on select plants. And listeners to our show get 20% off their first purchase when they use the code CROOKED at checkout. That's an additional 20% off better plants and better growing at FastGrowingTrees.com using the code CROOKED at checkout.

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[20:39] Limited time offer. Rules and restrictions apply. See blinds.com for details. [20:45] I want to step back and ask about how you came to believe what you believe about politics. Like, when did you start... [20:54] paying attention to politics and [20:56] What was your worldview like back then, and sort of how has it evolved? I mean, I've always been... [21:03] I was a big history buff when I was a kid, which in many ways kind of makes you sort of politically aware just because you're doing that. In high school, I was introduced to more critical thought like Howard Zinn and Chomsky. But I remember reading those things and being like, yeah, some of this makes sense. But I also still was very much like a bit of a patriotic person. [21:29] young man. So, uh, and I always wanted to join the military. So I had this kind of like weird, like militaristic bent that I really can't explain. But since I was two, I wanted to be a soldier. Um, [21:41] Thank you. [21:42] It was really after my military service that I began to think much more deeply about it, primarily because I had four tours in the infantry. [21:52] And I fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. [21:56] And I really came to believe that [21:58] what we were doing. [22:01] was not what we were claiming to do. [22:03] I could not figure out what the immense amount of violence I partook in

[22:10] what that did for the town of Sullivan, Maine. [22:13] And to this day, no one's ever been able to explain to me. [22:17] I do know that some people made a lot of money. [22:20] off the wars that I fought in. And it wasn't the young men and women who did the fighting. And it certainly wasn't the civilians that we inflict, inflicted just wild amounts of violence upon. I, I, [22:33] It's defense contractors and it's folks in political power. Like it really is – [22:40] And that that began to so I became it became very critical of American foreign policy. [22:45] Okay. [22:46] Which as I then that kind of just set me on a road of being, well, if I'm critical of foreign policy, why is there foreign policy like this? So I became more critical of our political structures. And once you start being critical of the political structure, you're like, well, why is our political structure like this? And that takes you into like an economic critique. And you start to realize that, oh, I like this whole system in many ways does seem to be built by people in power with wealth. [23:11] to maintain or expand their wealth and power generally to the, [23:16] to the immiseration or diminishment of... [23:19] regular working folks. [23:22] And [23:23] And I think, you know, the reason this campaign has sort of blown up the way it has is I think a lot of people are – [23:31] Getting wise to this. [23:32] I know a lot of folks are like, wait a second, like this stuff that we all thought for years, [23:37] we are getting a totally different outcome from what we claim we're trying to do.

[23:43] So are we actually trying to do the thing that we claim or is all of this doing something else? And when you reframe the question of like, does all of this exist just to like screw working people and make somebody else rich? Suddenly, a lot of decisions we make begins to become a lot more clear. And so that's kind of where I've it's been a long journey. [24:02] I mean, it's definitely not been, I didn't like have a day where I'm like, oh, I figured it out. But well, obviously, so obviously you're like shaped by your experiences in Iraq. You come home. [24:13] Everything you just said, you could have found out by just being on the internet and reading about politics and reading the news. But you decided long before you ran for Senate to get involved in community organizing, which I find really interesting. What got you into that? What did you want to change in your community specifically and how did you get involved in that? [24:33] What did you find about the work? What was challenging? What was fulfilling? [24:49] Thank you. [24:50] in it [24:51] The book really talks about the difference between organizing and mobilizing, developing a deeper theory of power in which power really is accessible for people who are willing to organize and to take it in many ways. In that we in our society, even in like liberal circles, still kind of have this vision that there is an elite who's like worthy of wielding power and the rest of us kind of have to like, you know, let them do it. Yeah.

[25:19] And her argument is like, that's simply not true. [25:21] that really power is for everybody. [25:25] but it requires organizing to bring it around. It requires trust building and relationship building. Um, [25:31] And – [25:32] I read that and it kind of changed my life, actually, because I began to think that, like, I spent a lot of time, especially... [25:41] Coming back, my last trip to Afghanistan was in 2018, and it was just, to call it disillusioning would be an understatement. I was there for six months, hadn't been there in seven years, and I was like, okay, well, nobody has any new ideas. This is insane. And I came back, and I was really... [25:59] kind of just [26:01] At a loss of what to do. And I decided to kind of opt out. And I moved back to my hometown, became an oyster farmer, started working on the ocean, and really wanted to just check out. [26:13] But while I did that, I also began to connect to my community. I live in a town of 1,000 people. It's the town I was born and raised in. I wound up on the planning board. [26:23] I wound up being the harbor master. [26:25] And in doing all that, I began to see, like, really the value of building trust and relationships and just organizing on the ground. And I also began to realize that organizing is actually not that complicated. It's just really hard. And that there is no graduate version of it. It's all one-on-one stuff. And it's hard because it is difficult to get people to participate, to care, to break down barriers. And because you have to put a lot of time.

[26:53] unpaid labor into it. You have to believe. And you have to go out into your community and you have to tell people what you believe, which is also hard. And it requires you to kind of open yourself up to a lot of people who, like people who I know, who you have to kind of say, like, this is what I believe. And sometimes people are like, I'm not into that. You're like, you're my neighbor. That bums me out. [27:20] But you have to do it. [27:22] And... [27:23] We had a number of issues in, uh, in Eastern Maine. Uh, for instance, there was a school board race and out of, uh, frankly, an out of state pack came in with a bunch of money and, uh, [27:38] who backed a very anti-trans candidate and somebody who'd been on the board for 13 years, who was well-respected in the community, who everybody liked, lost his seat. [27:48] And a month later, [27:50] the school district. [27:52] pulled back protections for LGBTQ kids that had been there for six years. [27:57] For no reason. Just because... Outside packaging involved in a local school board race in Sullivan. Yeah. Technically in Franklin. But yeah, we have an RSEO, so a regional school. And it was this moment for myself and a few other people where we watched this happen and it only happened because it was no organizing versus a little bit of organizing. They had people to knock doors and this guy had himself.

[28:24] It's a small town school board race. And there was no apparatus. [28:28] to support him. [28:29] There was no way of like getting people to knock doors for him. He was calling around almost like frantic, understanding what was happening like with a week until the election. And there really wasn't anything that existed. And so a number of us, [28:44] We'd already formed a small community organizing group, but we used this as an example of [28:51] We... [28:52] understood that if we don't have people who can make signs and put them up, if we don't have people who can knock doors, who can make phone calls in their communities, talking to their neighbors, people that they trust or people who would trust them. [29:04] If we don't build that... [29:06] then we're going to lose this kind of fight. [29:09] And so we just started to build it. And we reached out to folks and we got a number of the other larger statewide groups. We reached out to local Democratic committee. We reached out to, frankly, a lot of individuals who we knew kind of had who are worked up about this because every like a ton of people are angry. But again, there was no mechanism. And we kind of we realized that especially right now after Trump's reelection. [29:32] People want to do something. [29:35] They want to fight. They want to... [29:38] Get involved. [29:39] The problem is, in a lot of places, there is no room to go into. There's no place. And we figured we just have to build the room. And once you build the room, [29:50] people come into it and they start talking to each other and they start building relationships. And I mean, the way we did it was pretty non-hierarchical. So essentially, like folks would get together and be like, this is the thing I care about. So it's like, I care about that too. And we're like, go forth and make that a campaign. And it worked. Like we actually wound up like winning the next school board race. And we're still like kind of, now we're trying to get candidates to run for county commissioner, stuff like that. So there is a, to me, that was a direct campaign.

[30:19] It was a moment where I realized, oh, man, this kind of. [30:22] Power building is very real. Yeah. It just requires people to really get out of their comfort zone and start building relationships again. [30:32] For me, it was the foundation of when the campaign started. [30:38] One of the reasons I agreed to do this was, [30:41] was purely to use it as a statewide organizing. [30:45] like vehicle. [30:46] With the visibility and the resources that we're going to get, we can take that kind of strategy, those kind of tactics, that kind of – [30:54] on-the-ground trust-building. [30:57] that we do. [30:58] And we can supercharge it. [31:00] And we can get the labor unions involved. And we can get all the other community organizations around the state involved. And then we can bring in all these people who engage with politics via electoral campaigns. And we can train them how to be organizers and activists in their community. And I think that's how you build the apparatus to knock on enough doors, talk to enough people, and build enough trust. I mean, I'm convinced we're not just going to beat Susan Collins in November. [31:30] And if... [31:33] The worst thing happens, and we have an election that is contested or called into question. Will we still have an apparatus to turn people out? [31:41] to actually have people mobilize. And if we have to, you know, resist fascism in the streets with a mass movement, which is really the only way you can. And,

[31:52] We're trying to build the apparatus to do both. And when we're done, we want it to stay. [31:57] I don't want any of this to die because one single Senate seat is not going to get us universal health care. So we're going to need to have the power of people still on our side in order to get the wins we're going to need down the road. [32:08] I'm a nerd, so I looked up the election results in Sullivan for the last decade. Quite a bellwether. Barely goes for Trump in 2016 by like less than 1%, although you said it's like 1,000 people. Jared Golden barely wins in 2018, barely flips to Biden in 2020. Trump squeaks out a win in 2024. I'm sure you know most of the people there. What are their politics like? What do people believe there? Yeah. [32:32] It's a... [32:33] I mean, everybody works really hard. Eastern Maine is... [32:37] It's economically depressed. It's commercial fishing. It is a lot of construction, mostly because we have some pretty substantial summer communities nearby, which brings money in. And then across the bay from us, we have Acadia National Park. [32:53] So there's a lot of folks that work in industries that are related to tourism. [32:58] So, yeah. [33:00] It's a very... [33:02] It's a very working class area, which I frankly is, I think, why it is. [33:07] is this kind of weird back and forth between like Trumpism and not Trumpism. Um, because, um, [33:15] I mean, Trump, I have a lot of friends who voted for Donald Trump three times. [33:19] And... [33:20] They hate billionaires. [33:21] They think corporate tech folks are like manipulating all of us. They think that corporate owned agriculture and food systems are exploiting all of us and essentially poisoning us. They think that hedge funds and private equity are like destroying working people's lives.

[33:41] I agree with all of this. One of the reasons they voted for Trump is because Trump came along and he told them the one thing that they knew was true was true, which is that they live in a system that is not built for them. [33:51] and somebody somewhere is robbing them blind. [33:54] Thank you. [33:56] And once he said that, [33:57] They were they were willing to kind of forgive all the other stuff, because that was that's the core thing that people understand that we live in a political and economic system that does not have their best interests at heart. [34:10] When you... [34:12] tell people that something they know in their bones is real, they're willing to kind of go along with a lot more, I think, afterwards. And one of the biggest problems we as Democrats have had is that we didn't have a counter to that. [34:23] We told folks that we had to protect the status quo. We told folks that, no, the economic system is actually doing great. Did you guys not see that Wall Street is doing fine? GDP looks great. Unemployment is record low. Yeah, but everybody works three jobs and they hate them. So it doesn't matter if unemployment is low. Working people are working themselves to the bone. [34:45] I think that that's why I'm utterly convinced that, [34:49] Economic populism. [34:51] Thank you. [34:52] going after the oligarchy. [34:54] That is how we kind of rebuild trust with working people. And I mean, I say this, this is not like a radical idea. I mean, honestly, it seems pretty obvious. But the Democratic Party, at least elements of it, certainly in D.C., have really walked away from that. And I think working people walked away from them because of it.

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[36:46] So, I want to talk about that a little more. Like, what do you think happened? Because... [36:51] Hancock County, where Sullivan is. [36:55] went for Obama by 17 points 2012. Yep. And, [37:00] you know, I, [37:01] Obviously, I've heard you say, and I get it, that the Democratic Party has become too tied to corporate interests. [37:07] Where specifically has the party gone wrong in the last decade in terms of, [37:12] policies, decisions, positions, are there things you can point to where you're like, that's where they're... Yeah. I mean, absolutely, too. The financial crisis. [37:21] Bailing out the banks. [37:24] Bailing out the big industries, letting people walk away with gold or jump away with golden parachutes while those banks still turn around and foreclose on people's homes. [37:34] While the average working person saw their, frankly, their retirement savings just disappear. And then we watched the political apparatus back up the people that broke the thing in the first place. I think that I think that was huge. That broke a lot of trust. And and then further on, you know, like the. So I was in I was there. I was in the White House. [37:58] we sort of [38:00] Knew that this was going to happen. We walk into the White House. [38:05] Bush had already done the bailout. Yep. [38:09] We can't really undo it at that point because we can't let the banks fail because the whole system goes under. And we make sure that the banks pay all the money back with interest. Right. The fucking executives get away with the golden parachutes. And I remember, like, trying to – I remember talking to Larry Summers about it. And I was like – he's like, we – it's contract law. We can't claw back the bonuses. Like, it's illegal. We're not – we're going to get fought. I'm like, okay. We can talk about contract law, but there's, like, people with pitchforks outside the White House. Right.

[38:39] Same thing with why didn't anyone go to jail? Well, the laws aren't there. The DOJ won't prosecute because the laws aren't there. And obviously we can't direct the DOJ to do anything anyway. Obama gives an interview where he calls these people fat cats. He gets in trouble for calling them fat cats, let alone all the policies. I think looking back, there's plenty of criticism over... [38:59] our housing policy, though even then at the time I remember them being like, well, we'd love to bail out people who lost their homes in this, but we don't want to bail out the people who bought second and third homes that they knew they couldn't afford because then we're rewarding people who acted irresponsibly. So there was all this. We passed the Recovery Act. We passed the Affordable Care Act. We spent a whole bunch of money that then we lose the midterms over. Yeah. Not much money. And I only bring this up not to defend any of it because I often look back on it and think – [39:28] Like, we're going to have another crisis and another crisis. And you get Republicans who are like, we'll let the whole fucking thing fail and we don't care. And then we'll just blame the immigrants. That's right. And then you get the Democrats being like, OK, we're going to try our best to solve the problem. And it's not going to be good enough. And then everyone's going to hate us and say that we are tied to corporate interests. You know, it's like it's a hard. Totally. But I also think that that's why I'm just being entirely upfront.

[39:58] the political will of the Democratic Party. [40:01] to go a little bit further to, to actually go after, I mean, people should have gone to prison. [40:07] I mean, Iceland put people in prison. And I understand that. Yeah, I mean, but Trump administration is happy. [40:15] To abuse the Justice Department. Yeah. And send them after folks. They send them after, like, Comey because he hurt Trump's feelings. I honestly don't think the American people would be angry if the Justice Department went after folks that, like, destroyed their retirement savings or – [40:29] kicked their neighbors out of their homes. [40:32] It's a – and that's the problem. Even before that, like, I mean – [40:37] I assume, yeah, maybe they wouldn't be upset. I assume we want to make sure the Justice Department only goes after people who actually broke the law. But then the question is like, we need to pass the fucking laws. But that's the other thing. We need people in the Senate and the House who want to... [40:55] pass these laws and also, frankly, put enforcement mechanisms in place. Yes. That's one of our biggest problems right now. Got lots of laws, but then they get broken. I mean, the Trump administration breaks the law every day. And then a lot of people just stand around like, well, what do we do? Like, what's the what's the mechanism to actually enforce this stuff? And, you know, and again, like, I'm not. [41:15] I don't think that the criticism is always correct, but the criticism is absolutely there, and it's driven like the kind of narrative. Yes, for sure. And that's why I think that the only way – [41:26] to regain the trust of the American people as Democrats is to be radically different.

[41:32] than what we've had to really become like, there should be no such thing as a labor Democrat. [41:38] That should just be being at the Democratic Party. We do need to cut ties with the, I would say, the larger... [41:47] Uh... [41:49] The donor world that comes from the financial system, the donor world that comes from Silicon Valley, like that wants to use AI to either put us all out of work or I guess maybe kill us all as a couple of days ago. It's very insane. [42:04] We need to cut ties with that, and I think we need to do it in a very clear public manner. Until we do, I think a lot of folks are still going to see Democrats as beholden to the same corporate apparatus that the Republicans are. The problem is that the Republicans have the – [42:21] have the weapon of just blaming marginalized communities. [42:25] Yeah, blaming immigrants. We need to blame [42:28] The oligarchy. We need to blame the corporate power that resulted in the deregulation of the banking system. I mean, that's a big one. We used to have laws in place. There's a reason 2008 happened in 2008 and not 1994. I mean, we changed rules and frankly. [42:49] A lot of Democrats supported that stuff. And until we become a party that doesn't do that, [42:54] Until we become the party that uses the tax code to go after the money that, in my opinion, has actually been stolen from working people in this country over the past four decades. Until we use, frankly, like the anti-monopoly laws we already have on the books. We just have to stop having Robert Bork's wild reading of what a monopoly is until we do that.

[43:16] I think people aren't going to trust us. I guess a big question I've had, [43:20] for much of the last decade is like, can Democrats win over people who have more culturally conservative beliefs with economic populism alone? Because I, [43:31] I very much want to believe that the answer is yes. Yeah. I have not seen the evidence that it can, and I realize the sample size is small, but, like... [43:41] you know. [43:42] Bernie Sanders runs in 2016. Bernie Sanders runs in 2020. Yep. Gets a hell of a lot of votes. Still getting big crowds. Did not win either race, obviously. Yep. Um, friend Sherrod Brown, um, who there's, you know, a perfect example of an economically populist Democrat who still holds, you know, liberal views on other issues is not sort of tacked to the middle on any cultural views. Um, [44:04] you know, held out in Ohio for a while and then just lost his last race. And hopefully he wins again this year as well. Oh, fingers crossed. But what do you think about that? I think that it's... [44:14] One, I think the landscape has changed now. I do fundamentally think that a lot of people, even who hold culturally conservative views, are realizing that they are, in fact, getting taken for a ride on the economic side. I think it's more clear now that it has been. [44:44] the rest of us is like a like this sort of amorphous blob to either just extract wealth out of so they can go live depraved lifestyles. I think that's actually really helpful one because it's you know, people are realizing that it's true. Yeah. But in my experience in Maine thus far.

[45:01] I have a lot of people come up to me at events and in public. [45:06] Who identifies Republicans. [45:09] identify as conservatives, tell me straight up that they do not agree with some of the things I say, but that they think the fact that I'm fighting back against the establishment, the system, that that's more important. And that's why they're going to vote for me. And it's anecdotal, but it's all. But it also pans out in the polling. I mean, we do really well with independence for a long time. The whole story was is that independents are this like magic, moderate middle. [45:39] views that you'll never appeal to those folks. Well, it turns out when you just go out there and talk about the fact that billionaires are robbing you, a lot of folks are like, yeah, that's what I'm here for. That's the, and so it's, it's, [45:50] So I think the landscape has somewhat changed. But with Sherrod Brown... [45:55] Sherrod was a victim of the larger failure of the Democratic Party. [46:00] He was not a victim of his own politics, I think. You know, Ohio went from being a blue stronghold of unions to becoming this red stronghold of disenfranchised, angry, working class people who 30 years ago... [46:14] We're Democrats. [46:15] Because they were all in labor unions. [46:18] And then, I mean... [46:20] It's not like in the 1990s. It's not like the Clinton administration really stood up for labor. [46:25] The Democratic Party has a lot [46:29] of a role to play in the diminishment of labor power in the free trade projects like NAFTA that really did in the end screw a lot of working Americans. You know, I think that that when you put it into the greater context, I think that's what's happened.

[46:44] And, you know, [46:45] In this moment. [46:48] Frankly, just because of the material reality that people are living in, it is becoming very clear to a lot of folks, whether they're conservative or liberal or whatever you want it or just in the middle and don't even care about politics. [47:01] there's becoming a very [47:03] Clear awareness. [47:05] That they are, in fact, being taken for a ride by people with immense amounts of power and that those who are willing up willing to stand up to that power. Those are the people they're going to look to. [47:16] and support. [47:18] And I think they're willing to sort of not care, actually, about a lot of the culture war stuff, which, in my opinion, and I say this often, I think was all invented to keep us all from having the conversation about politics. [47:31] taxing billionaire wealth and breaking up corporate monopolies. I think that's why we have to argue about all these culture war issues that in reality, I mean, it keeps us all divided. [47:43] But it doesn't reopen the hospital. [47:46] Hmm. [47:46] And it doesn't change the fact that your rent continues to go up or that your – [47:52] The wages that you've been earning continue to stagnate while the prices of goods and services continue to rise. All the culture war stuff, there's nothing for that. And we need to be very clear and cogent and blunt. [48:06] about how we're going to change it. [48:08] And I think if we do that, I do think that there is a... [48:12] an opening to do this. Do you think the Democrats have

[48:16] Thank you. [48:17] I don't want to say taken the bait, but engaged too much in some of these culture wars. Totally. And I think they have taken the bait. [48:23] And I'll be entirely honest. I think some of them, some of them don't even take the bait. Some of them rise to it on purpose because they don't want to have the other conversation. I mean, there is an element. I see this all the time of, you know, more kind of establishment folks who are like, look, I don't want to talk about this, but they make me talk about it. And now I'm going to talk about how I don't want to talk about it for the next four hours. And I'll never talk about raising taxes on billionaires. [48:49] And I think there's an element within the party that actually likes this stuff because it gives them this ability to pretend they hate this, but it sucks up all the oxygen. So then you never have to get around to the structural or systemic reforms that we have to make. Sometimes I wonder if it's because the coalition of the Democratic Party is now more college educated and upper income than it's ever been. Yep. That like what gets people – [49:17] angry and what gets people like eager to participate in politics are some of these issues, which, you know, and I, I will say like, I'm sure people feel strongly. I feel strongly about a lot of progressive cultural issues. And I am like, I do not. [49:29] back away from things. Right. I think all the wins we've made for justice and equality, we take no steps back from any of this stuff. But I'm also very aware as someone who like, [49:37] now has money that you're like, oh, when your life is like comfortable, right. Then you can say that like, yes, it's important that people care about raising taxes and people care about health care, but also are you going to be as angry about it as everyone else? And I think that like, I, I, I am because I am very politically engaged, but I think for a lot of people who just show up at elections who are like more suburban, high upper income, stuff like that, who are, who've been voting Democrat for a long time. I wonder if it's like the driving force for them. It might be, but, but

[50:06] We're not winning with that. [50:08] I mean, there's that great Chuck Schumer line. [50:11] Yeah, I know. For everyone we lose. For every working class person we lose out in the countryside, we're going to gain two voters in... [50:23] The suburb. The suburb, yeah. [50:24] And it didn't happen. [50:26] Donald Trump won. Yeah. And then he won again. And we lost a lot of seats around the country. Like, so clearly that math did not pan out. [50:37] I truly think that the only way forward for us as a party is to really become a real party of working people again. [50:48] it doesn't mean you're like, [50:50] Also not – I mean, look, when I talk about working people, I literally mean anybody that just makes money from wages, which is everybody. I mean, I'll just – like, I've had a bunch of folks be like, well, what about the middle class? I'm like, yeah, man, in this America, the middle class is the working class. Quite frankly, somebody that started a business and has just worked their asses off every day ever since and might now have, like, a bunch of money but still works – [51:13] They're way closer to someone working three jobs in poverty than they are to a billionaire. [51:19] Like we're all kind of down here. And when we talk about policies, about clawing a lot of that wealth back, we're not talking about going after small business owners. We're not talking about going after big business owners. We're talking about going after the people who used their wealth and power to change policies in the political system to then consolidate more wealth and power. They cheated. They cheated.

[51:44] And we need to use political power to claw that stuff back. [51:48] So I think that by becoming the party of representing working folks, we really would be becoming the party of like really representing the vast majority of Americans. And, and, [51:58] as people begin to realize that [52:00] this right-wing populism. [52:03] It's not making things cheaper. [52:05] And it's not reopening hospitals. And it's not making your health insurance company any less awful to deal with. Yeah. [52:12] That realization will kick in and you know, we won't get everybody, but I think we will start getting folks back But we need to be there with open arms and we need to be there with policies that are [52:22] very understandable. [52:24] I mean, I think that's a big one. [52:35] Pots of America brought to you by Mint Mobile. I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers also seem to like keeping your money too. If you're fed up with crazy high wireless bills, bogus fees, and free perks that actually cost more in the long run, you need to switch to Mint Mobile. [52:49] Stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. Mint exists purely to fix that. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting at 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Bring your own phone and number, activate with eSIM in minutes, and start saving immediately. No long-term contracts, no hassle. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service with Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. Crooked's own Nina was fed up with her overpriced wireless bill with one of the big wireless carriers, so she made the

[53:19] has to worry about bogus fees or hidden costs on her monthly bill, saving her big bucks. [53:24] If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash crooked. [53:29] That's mintmobile.com slash crooked. Upfront payment of $45 for three month, five gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 per month. New customer offer for the first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. [53:46] Well, I want to talk about Medico for All because I know that's central to your campaign. [53:51] I now feel like I have talked about health care for most of my life in politics and went through this in the 2020 campaign. Obviously, it had been there for ACA as well. So I've dealt with a lot of health care politics. I think insurance companies are horrible. I think that the for-profit system is insane. And I think it is – [54:11] A no brainer that if we were starting from scratch that we would write a single payer system or some version of a single payer system. I think that the the figuring out how to win the political support to transition from what we have now to a single payer system, Medicare for all or something like it is a political challenge that is made more difficult. [54:31] In large part by all the money that the insurance companies and everyone else has. But there are also some real trade-offs and transitions that I think average people who very much dislike their insurance companies are still concerned about. And they put it on the ballot in Colorado in 2016 as a ballot initiative. Medicare for All fails. Oregon fails. California fails. They pass it in Vermont, the only state that's tried. And then they failed at implementation.

[55:01] a national policy. Yes. I mean, like, especially small rural states, we don't have the money. Right. I mean, in many ways, we're talking about building a national risk pool. And the more people you have in a risk pool, the more effective your insurance is, which really is what we're talking about here. Yeah. I'll just use my own experience. [55:21] So I essentially get universal health care. [55:24] I'm a disabled combat vet. [55:26] And because of that, I simply get [55:30] free point of service care. [55:32] Thank you. [55:33] It allowed me to start a small business. [55:36] It allowed me to take some time to figure out what kind of life I wanted to live after my combat service. Without it, I would not have ever been able to be an oyster farmer because I would have had to work another job. [55:47] to have health care. [55:50] It gave me a real material freedom. [55:52] That allowed me to build something that today is a successful small business that employs people in Eastern Maine never would have existed without. [56:02] my health care. [56:03] That basic element of foundational support just around health care is what allowed me to become a successful small business owner. [56:12] Thank you. [56:14] Not only do I think that providing that is going to unleash a lot of productivity in the real world, because this is important. We have a system and we have a lot of metrics that we use to judge our productivity that, frankly, mostly seems to be fantastical in the financialized system. But in the real world where people actually build things and exchange them with each other for money, that in that world –

[56:37] I honestly do think that giving people just this simple foundational support is going to unleash a lot more productivity. People have the freedom to start small businesses or to – [56:47] engage in art, to engage in things that I think actually elevate all of us as a society. [56:54] Also, we would take healthcare off the plate of small business owners. [56:58] which, it's a nightmare. [57:00] A lot of small business, medium-sized business owners, they want to provide health care to their employees. But I've spoken to folks in Maine who are like, if you have a company 50 employees and up – [57:11] One of those employees' job is to just deal with the health insurance stuff, paying the premiums, dealing with the companies. It's a frig. You take that off their plates – [57:22] Well, now they can just focus on what their business is, not also having to be this intermediary around health care. [57:29] I know that we can do it because the VA doesn't. [57:32] Right. That's the program exists. [57:35] The VA only has problems when Republicans cut its budget. [57:39] When we fund it and we resource it, it does a spectacular job. In Maine, the VA is awesome. And it's awesome because we have a small population and the resources and employees, the ratio for the population that's serving, it's a good ratio. So it works. I've lived in other parts of the country where the VA system is really hard to deal with because they don't get the funding and therefore the outcome. It's almost as though you get what you pay for, whoever would have guessed.

[58:10] when I think about [58:12] Moments in American history. [58:14] where [58:16] we had to address systemic problems, big ones. [58:22] There are always going to be times of experimentation and, frankly, growing pains. [58:28] And the only way it ever works is when you have people in – [58:33] Positions of power who have the political will. [58:37] to try to drive it forward. [58:39] I mean, this is what the New Deal was. [58:41] The New Deal was FDR having built a broad coalition, having political power, and then really just ramming things through, making them happen. Some of them failed. [58:53] And then they changed. They were imaginative. They experimented. Things worked. Things didn't work. I mean, the NRA worked for a little while, and then it kind of didn't, and so they got rid of it. And there is a… [59:06] when we electrified all of rural America. [59:10] it was done with an array of options, whether it was public ownership or public private partnerships, and sometimes just straight up private companies. But we, we used to, [59:18] Use our imaginations to fix problems. And I think our biggest problem recently has been we have a political class that has sort of forgotten how to dream big. Everything's a tax credit. [59:30] Everything's a block grant. Everything's like something weird. And when you try to explain it to people, like you lose them in like five seconds because everyone's like, I don't even what is this weird wonky language you're using? Yeah. Which I mean, it's one of my biggest, biggest criticisms of the Biden administration, where they did a lot of amazing things and then just never told anybody about them. Yeah. And then we all sit around being like, they're like, why did nobody like that? We did this. I'm like, dude, nobody knew. And when you did explain it, it was always in this kind of very complicated legal language.

[1:00:00] and nobody engages with that. [1:00:03] When it comes to health care, [1:00:05] I mean, I'll be honest. I think we have to do a lot of big things. We're going to need federal money to reopen hospitals. [1:00:11] I think we need to start thinking about mental health care as being as much a part of health care as everything else and incorporating that into a larger system. I mean, we in rural Maine. [1:00:24] Healthcare is collapsing now. [1:00:27] Not next year. [1:00:28] Not down the road. It's already happened. I know. I was going to say, one of the big problems or one of the big challenges with Medicare for All is that hospitals are open right now because they get reimbursed. Right. And if you suddenly have every hospital go to the Medicare reimbursement rate, suddenly hospitals are closing all over the place. I mean, I think this is why Bernie and his plan has like a transition period. It's a four-year transition period. Four-year transition period. And also, I mean, to be fair, I've read Bernie's full bill. [1:00:56] And it's essentially universal health care with the name Medicare for all. Right. Like as you really kind of get through it, I mean, it covers dental. It covers vision. Medicare doesn't cover those things like it's a there. It's an expanded. [1:01:09] program that really is just a single-payer universal health care system that is based around [1:01:15] basic things like you can still get insurance if for like for a [1:01:22] higher level procedures that it doesn't cover, but it does cover all the stuff. Like if you get sick or if you get injured and you just don't have to like, think about it. And I got to say,

[1:01:32] Having traveled a lot... [1:01:34] and been to a lot of other countries, I just have this element of me where I'm like, dude, everybody else does it differently. [1:01:41] They all figured it out. And yeah, of course, it's never perfect. These systems will always have. I mean, we're talking about large bureaucratic systems. They're going to have some problems. They have a lot more problems when you get neoliberal policies in place that start taking money away from them. But. [1:01:56] Everybody else has a better version of this, and it's cheaper, and the care in many ways is better for most people. A lot of folks are always, well, in America, the rich come here to get great procedures. I'm like, that does no good for somebody with no money. Right. Or who can't even afford ACA coverage now because premiums have gone up by triple fold. Yep. I mean, these are people I know. These are my neighbors. [1:02:26] Thank you. [1:02:26] a relative of mine. [1:02:29] had to drop her health insurance. [1:02:31] because her premium doubled because of the loss of the ACA extensions. Even if we keep expanding the subsidies and the credits for the ACA, they're raising prices and we're all just subsidizing. At some point, you have to figure out how to contain the cost of the health care system. I'll just be entirely up front. As long as there is a substantial profit motive with a substantial middleman, [1:03:01] problem. Subsidies,

[1:03:04] Won't be enough because somebody is going to figure out how to pull more money out of the thing. Costs will go up. So I think it's – I do not pretend that it will not be a transition period. [1:03:16] I mean, we're going to it would be one of the largest projects we've really ever undertaken as a nation to transition from the health care system we have to a single payer universal health care system. But we also have to do it because what we're doing now is insanely expensive. [1:03:32] It's terrible. It's in many places in rural America. [1:03:36] It's totally unsustainable. It's absolutely falling apart. [1:03:40] I want to ask you about this because it's in the news, and by the time people hear this, Trump could have already launched a war with Iran. I did want to get your response to what a White House source told Politico about selling the war. [1:03:51] There's thinking in the administration that the politics are a lot better if the Israelis go first and alone and the Iranians retaliate against us and give us more reason to take action. [1:04:02] Thoughts? I hate everything so much. [1:04:08] I mean, one, I think it's disgusting that we've got people. [1:04:12] in the White House. [1:04:14] who are literally sitting around thinking about how do we sell products. [1:04:18] a war. [1:04:19] I mean, we went through the run-up to the war in Iraq. [1:04:24] At least then the Bush administration had the decency to really try to trick us. Yeah. Yeah. At least they like they really went out of their way. They made Colin Powell sully his entire reputation at the UN. They like really, they put the work in. Yeah. And it's so, I mean, it's just, it's, it's, it's insulting to have these folks who are just like, like, oh, we're going to figure out a war in a week.

[1:04:51] Like we're just, oh, man, this Epstein stuff's getting out of control. Iran. We're going to invade Iran now. We trade the Venezuela thing like we did that. Now we're still screwing around down there. We need to start another one. Let's just go to war with Iran. And I mean, that's what they're doing. All this is is is posturing and. [1:05:09] As somebody who fought a war, too... [1:05:13] It [1:05:14] It's disgusting. [1:05:16] Uh... [1:05:17] And... [1:05:18] It also is, I think for me, I mean, one of the reasons I want to go to the Senate specifically is we need. [1:05:25] a Senate who's really going to take their power back when it comes to war making. [1:05:32] I mean, the Constitution is pretty clear. [1:05:34] I saw that the Democrats think that the War Powers Resolution will now get a vote in the House. Yep. I don't know if it will pass because I think there's a few Democrats who... [1:05:44] I mean, this is, dude, this is, I mean, this is, and by the way, you want to talk about like one of those reasons why working people or regular people don't, it's also because of this stuff. Yeah. Because there is this connection, like we just should be the anti-war party. I mean, the fact that there is an element of the right that this kind of isolationist version of it that actually gets to almost take on the mantle of being, that only works. [1:06:09] When we have elements of the Democratic Party that are like willing to go along with this stuff. [1:06:13] We shouldn't be fighting wars. [1:06:15] I'm sorry, we should not be sending young American men and women off to kill a bunch of people in foreign countries.

[1:06:22] I mean, for essentially any reason. Like, I'm... [1:06:28] It is hard for me to see any intervention post-World War II that in the long run really worked out well. [1:06:34] Korea, maybe you can make the argument. Everything else, though. And it is a... [1:06:41] Eh... [1:06:42] I'm not a pacifist. [1:06:45] But at this point, [1:06:46] I've become essentially anti-war when it comes to the nation writ large and how we use our power internationally. [1:06:54] Because every time we do this, when you go back and look at it, in hindsight, it's pretty much always a bad idea. But more importantly for me, there's a human cost to this stuff. That you've seen. Yeah. [1:07:07] That you felt? Like, I know what... [1:07:09] I know what it looks like when American-made high-explosive interacts with children. [1:07:14] Like I've touched it. [1:07:16] It's a... [1:07:17] It's a horrifying thing. I know what it feels like to have... [1:07:22] friends die and to have a lot of other friends of mine and myself included have to deal with the trauma of that for years afterwards. [1:07:34] We need more people in positions of power. [1:07:37] frankly, who either [1:07:39] understand it because they've experienced it. [1:07:42] or who are just kind of ideologically opposed and don't want us to do this kind of stuff. And it's not just about the moral component. It's about the fact that this stuff, it doesn't make us safer.

[1:07:54] It doesn't make the world safer. It tends to, to quote a famous person, [1:08:02] a famous Marine who came long before me, War is a Racket. [1:08:06] And, you know, [1:08:07] There are people that make an immense amount of money off of it. [1:08:09] And when you go look at a lot of the wars we fought, frankly, certainly in my lifetime, at the end of the day, that's usually what happens. And I do not see a war with Iran falling into a different category. In fact, it seems to be almost like I mean, I said this about Venezuela as well. It's like Iraq, but dumber. Yeah. But we need people in places of political power who are really willing to call it exactly for what it is and to. [1:08:35] Stand up against it. I mean, this can't happen. Yeah. [1:08:39] Last question. Hopefully a lighter note. You recently took a campaign hiatus to travel to Norway with your wife. Yes. To try IVF. Speaking of healthcare. Yeah, exactly. In the hopes of having your first child. Yeah. [1:08:50] Can you talk to me about that decision and why Norway? Yeah, so Amy and I have been dealing with infertility for about two and a half years now. [1:08:58] and went through all the [1:09:01] Previous steps eventually got to the point where like, all right, IVF is the last thing. [1:09:08] Because of, I mean, the VA doesn't cover it if it's not like clearly my problem. And Amy's not a vet, so it doesn't cover her. It's kind of weird, which needs to be changed, by the way, because to have children, you do need both people. That's true. But whatever, it's a whole other thing. I'm going to work on that when I get to the Senate.

[1:09:27] We, uh, [1:09:29] Her insurance didn't cover it. [1:09:31] The VA stuff didn't cover it. [1:09:33] And so we started to look into doing it. [1:09:36] in the United States. [1:09:38] And the cost is astronomical. [1:09:41] And in New England, there's only one clinic. So we and their only clinic is in Portland, Maine, which is three hours away from where we live. So we'd have to be traveling anyways. We started to look into it. We saw how expensive it was, but we really weren't sure what else to do. Uh. [1:09:57] And then a friend of Amy's... [1:09:59] had a relative or someone who had gone to Norway. They're like, you know, in Norway, it's really cheap and everybody's really nice. And it's a wonderful personal experience. And I, [1:10:10] So Amy reached out to a clinic in Norway like on a Monday and we had like an hour long intake exam with the surgeon on Thursday. And the moment I knew we were going to go. [1:10:22] is at the end of an hour-long intake exam. [1:10:24] I was like, okay, how much do we owe you guys? [1:10:27] And they were like... [1:10:28] Why would you give us money? [1:10:30] Like nothing has happened. And I'm like, yeah, we're definitely going to Norway. I mean, this is – That's amazing. It was amazing. And it was amazing. [1:10:39] It was a [1:10:40] And in the end, even with the travel... [1:10:43] staying in an Airbnb for two weeks, the plane tickets, [1:10:48] It was one quarter. [1:10:50] the cost of just the baseline of doing it here in the United States. [1:10:56] It's insane. [1:10:57] And you get treated like a human being. Like the clinic is small. Everybody's really nice to you. They don't look at you as like just something to pull more money out of. They like treat you like a human being, which is you're going through infertility. Helpful. Very helpful because it's an emotional experience. And, you know, we developed like a really nice relationship with those folks. And so, yeah, it was a very – I mean, we're still in it. We're still kind of going through the process. But it's been –

[1:11:24] We actually, I mean, I talk about this, we joke about it, that even if it cost the same, we still would have done the Norwegian version because like it's just it's so it's so much more pleasant. It's pleasant. And you go to like Norwegian hospitals where, you know, literally no one, no one is sitting there worried about how much this costs. [1:11:40] They've really figured it out in those Nordic countries. We shouldn't invade Denmark. They're pretty nice. We should not invade Denmark. No war with Greenland. Yes, that's good. On top of all the other ones. I feel like that one might be the most. I think we can get that done. We should definitely not do that one. Well, good luck on your journey there, and also good luck on the campaign, and thank you for coming by. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. [1:12:04] If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, [1:12:10] Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. [1:12:13] Also, please consider leaving us a review. That helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. [1:12:20] Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. [1:12:28] Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. [1:12:38] Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. [1:12:42] Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellaviv, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

[1:12:57] . [1:13:01] Thank you.