The Heaven’s Gate Tragedy

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[01:49] Morbid. Morbid. Let's go. Do you remember when I was really vulnerable last week and I told you I did a foot mask? Oh, yes. [01:56] I said I was like afraid that my feet work and appeal, but I was afraid that they were going to appeal. I'm going to be really vulnerable again. Why are my feet still peeling? Yeah, they're going to go for a while. I also did one a few days ago because you inspired me. I inspired you? Oh my god, I'm an influencer. And mine have also started and it's great. Mikey did one too! Debbie! [02:16] Peel your feet. [02:19] Peel them off right now. Peel your feet. It's so good. It is. It's the best. My feet are peeling so much that I almost... [02:26] God, this is horrible. Sorry for eating. But, like, I'm like, do I do one again to, like, soften the parts that, like, aren't peeling as easily? Probably not. I would just let it do this. I was met with a series of head shakes from across the room. Yeah. You don't want to overdo. [02:40] You always go hard. You gotta pull this one back. One thing about me is that I go hard. Yeah, you don't want to start giving your feet problems. [02:51] That would suck, you know? Well, yeah, it's fun, though. Do it. It is. I suggest you do it. Do it. You'll feel brand new. It's true. [02:57] What's up with you, Red? What's up with me? You can pre-order my book, The Butcher Legacy. Let's go. It's coming out August 11th, and you can pre-order it on butcherlegacy.com. Or wherever books are sold. Exactly. You can get it anywhere. I'm excited. Go get it. Pre-order it. Pre-order it. I'm going to start the series from the top. Hell yeah. Start it from the top, because I haven't read. Well, I should say, she's read them.

[03:20] Yeah, you know, I'm like, I'm going to start reading them. You're like, I'm like, I've actually decided you're doing really good at this whole thing. So I should give it a shot. No, I've read all of them. And I was actually just about to say, I'm restarting them to get ready for the third one, because I have the third one. Ha ha. But I haven't read Butcher and the Wren. [03:40] in a long time. I don't even know how many years because it was so long ago at this point. You just keep writing books. It's nuts. Writing books out here. I'm restarting and I'm going to read them back to back to back. Yeah. And I'm really excited. I love that. The next two are thickies. I'm excited. They are. They get exponentially thicker. It's funny because this book is released, but I was with you yesterday and I saw you typing something. I was typing something. I saw you typing something. I was typing a little something. What are you typing? I don't know. Maybe just a little something. Oh my god. Oh my god. Maybe. I don't know. That's crazy. [04:10] Once one's done, you just type something else. Maybe something's brewing. I don't know. Just type until you die. Exactly. That's what everybody wants from you. Type until you die. I will. [04:21] Let's go. So somebody, somebody messaged me and said they liked the little, you know, how to make life feel a little less shitty, how it is right now, and a little more like romanticized or slowed down or just give you like little pockets. Of course, we, you know, one person was like, glad you're having a great year. Like, go fuck yourself. And I was like, that's what you got from that. Okay. You won't be romanticizing your mom. You're not romanticizing anything. Because that's clearly not what I'm saying. Romanticize your Instagram comments. Exactly.

[04:51] Like, clearly that's the one thing. Romenicized by DMs. But for the most part, you guys have been digging it, which is awesome. Because I'm telling you, it helps a little. It does. It helps a little. It helps take a little bit of the edge off of all the fuck shit that is happening because it is complete fuck shit. Fuck ice. Fuck. But one thing I said I did was I watched Center Stage at like 5.30 in the morning the other morning. And it really set me up. [05:14] For a pretty fucking great day. So what did you watch the next day? Well, and then my little watch list was like, oh, girl. Yeah. [05:22] you like center stage at 5 30 in the morning? And I said, yeah, I do. And it said, here's some other little gems for you. And of course, I mentioned this early, threw me, threw me, drive me crazy. [05:34] And I said, banger. All right, let's give that a shot. [05:37] Guys, that movie. That movie. I haven't seen that movie in a long time. A true underrated banger. It's very of the time. I need you to know that right now going in. Super outs. But that's just where we are, you know. I'm sure it's under stages. Everything is of the time. Yeah. But Drive Me Crazy was great. That was the other. It took me like two mornings to get through that one. Is Melissa Joan Hart in that? Yeah, of course she is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. She's great. Yep. [06:07] The next one I watched after that, that I started watching, 10 Things I Hate About You. Oh! Yeah. 10 Things I Hate About You. I've seen where they're in the bleachers and it... Oh, ruin me. Heath Ledger forever. No, I'll cry right now. I'll sob on this podcast. He is just a king in that movie. And the next one I have on my list that I'm going to go to after finishing 10 Things I Hate About You is...

[06:36] Can't hardly wait. Jennifer Lumpfewit. [06:39] Thank you. [06:39] what happens big party yeah yeah yeah after graduation um carlisle from twilight isn't it yeah he plays the job is um fucking seth green and nice okay yep yep yep um he plays a wild problem and i think that's why i was like i remember that like wait a minute um stay with you very of the time so i know my watch list here is it's like giving me a cue of like oh [07:09] these movies when I just am like doing things and I just put them on. Yeah. Don't have to sit down and like really like engross yourself in them. It's, it's working. I love that. It's making me feel good. That's great. You know, good for you. So. [07:21] I suggest it. Perfect. I highly suggest it. I'm just starting my morning. I'm on Chinese medicine TikTok. I had no idea where you were going. I saw your face and you were like, what are you saying? I thought at first you were saying my mornings, like I'm starting with Chinese, like I thought you were going to be like Chinese food. And I was like, this is different. That would be, I wish I could start my mornings with Chinese food. I was like, wow. No, I'm on Chinese TikTok, Chinese medicine TikTok. And they're giving you all these like little like bullet [07:51] start your morning with hot water or something hot to like get your belly settled oh i think i have seen that shit will change your life oh i'm having a little hot water with lemon i don't know i rolled up here with my hot tea oh good hot water lemon then i had a hot tea [08:05] Look at that. The hot beverageinos. You know, it's the little things. It is. Again, it's the little things.

[08:10] And you'll like this. I'm keeping my feet warm. Oh, yeah. As you should not walk around the house barefoot, according to Chinese medicine. Never have been. Never will be. Always did. Won't again. There you go. Look at these. Yeah. I ordered these little bitties. Yeah. [08:26] They're grippy so I don't fall on my butt. Yeah. [08:28] I'm saying. It's good shit. So that's wellness with Alina and Ash. Yeah, so do those things. Crazy Ox movies, fuzzy socks, and hot Beberginos. If I come up with anything else a little that seems to work and make me feel good, I'll let you guys know because we're not gatekeeping happiness over here. Maybe I'll start eating Chinese food in the morning. Yeah. I'll let you know if it works. Exactly. We'll share it. I like your movie recommendations though, so please continue watching ridiculous movies and telling us about them. Hell yeah. All right, [08:58] it. [08:59] That is also nostalgic. Yeah. [09:01] No, it might be. Maybe to you. I wasn't alive. No, I was. I remember when this happened. Do you really? I mean, it was probably a pretty big deal. We're going to be talking about having skates. And if you were alive and functioning, this will be nostalgic. Unlike me, it will be nostalgic for you, I suppose. I don't know if you'll long for this time, but I don't know your life. So let's talk about it. [09:22] In mid-March 1997, 43-year-old Richard Ford finally spoke out against Father Doe, who was known to the rest of the world as 65-year-old Marshall Applewhite. For over 20 years, he had been slowly building a following as the leader of Heaven's Gate, which was this religious cult. Their beliefs were...

[09:42] kind of a blend of Christianity, science fiction, and like New Age practices, but they were... [09:49] bonkers. Wow. Wow. Wow. By the mid-1990s, Marshall Applewhite had attracted over 40 men and women who were basically just fed up with their day-to-day lives, fed up with society. Angels in the group actually ranged all the way from people in their mid-20s to their early 70s. Wow. So this was like a vast range of people. They all hoped that his predictions to finding a better life on another planet would come true. [10:15] Period. [10:17] According to Marshall Applewhite, their escape would be made in an alien spacecraft that was following closely behind the Hale-Bopp comet, which was expected to pass the Earth at the end of March. I remember this. Well, it was like a huge thing. It was a big fucking deal. It was like nuts. Yeah. I don't recall. Yeah, I don't recall. I don't recall. We went out on the front lawn and we waited for it. Did you? Yeah. I think I was still in Hawaii at that point. [10:42] So I wasn't with you, unfortunately. You were not with us on the front lawn. I wish I had that experience with you. I'm bummed. Pretty fun. But the thing was, in order to catch their ride to the higher plane on the Hale-Bopp comet, the members of Heaven's Gate would need to slip the bonds of their earthly bodies prior to the comet's arrival. So they had to figure that whole thing out. Yeah, of course. Now Richard Ford, who was known to the rest of the group as, I think it's Neody or Rio D'Angelo. They got, like, different names when they went into the cult. Oh, okay. [11:12] And up to the point that he spoke out, everybody saw him as a very firm believer in this ideology and the mythology that Applewhite had built over the years. But when it came time to enact the final plan to ascend to this new celestial form,

[11:28] He was one of a small number who just wasn't ready to take that step because that step was literally ending your life. Yeah. But like to move on to the next one. With complete trust. With complete and utter trust. It's like in the circle, in the craft. Yes. With perfect love and perfect trust. Exactly. So his reluctance obviously caused a rift between him and a cult leader. And by mid-March, Richard decided that he was going to leave the group. But he let them know that he cared about them a lot and he wanted to, you know, keep in touch as long as they could. [11:58] And he wasn't going to intervene on their plans in any way. He was being a real one. Yeah. He was like, I love you guys. And like, I'm not going to stop you, but like, I don't want you to do this. Yeah. Like he was like, this is not my scene. Yeah. But. [12:10] You know what? I won't mess it up for you. He lived and he let live. He did. He didn't yuck other people's yums. He didn't, no matter how nutso their yums were. Yes. So Richard Ford was at home on the afternoon of March 25th when the mail arrived. And among the letters was a package that included a letter and two videotaped statements from the Heaven's Gate members informing him that they, quote, [12:32] shed their containers. That fucks me up. And left the earth bound for a better life. Shed my container is... No, I hate it. That's crazy. We recorded an episode once and I still feel this way. I think you were talking a lot about the brain or I was. And I was like, I don't like talking about my brain too much. Because now you can feel your brain. Because I can feel... [12:53] container yeah i'm just a fucking container i mean the truth of the matter is yes no i know no i know but i like we're just a container for our inner like insides shut up i can't it's true i mean that isn't like shut up like shut up not like stop talking just like shut up yeah

[13:14] But your skin itself is an organ. So if you really look at it that way, though, we're not really a container. [13:21] true because we're one giant organ but i think he i don't even think he was talking about organs i think he was talking more about like souls oh yeah for sure like i was talking about it like we're containers for our organs we are containers for our organs but also kind of not really yeah when you think about the skin being an organ that shit will ruin your life so yeah they were shedding their containers they let richard know and richard obviously knew what that meant but he didn't know exactly what to do about it so the next day he just told his boss nick matzorkis [13:51] the two hours to the Heaven's Gate compound in Rancho Santa Fe. [13:54] to be like did they do this like what's going on here so when they got to the house nick was like i'm gonna wait in the car buddy you can check that out he's like you seem to know about this so i'm just gonna stay here he said i'll fly you do everything yeah [14:07] So Richard made his way around to the side of the house and the door was unlocked. He was armed with a video camera. He entered the house and he found... [14:15] Pretty much exactly what he had expected. All 39 remaining members of Heaven's Gate dead from intentional overdoses. Their bodies, if you know the story you know, were all just laid out on mattresses and covered with purple shrouds. He spent about 10 minutes in the house just doing his best to document the scene but never touching anything. But unfortunately, by the time they got there, everybody inside had been dead for multiple days at that point.

[14:45] well underway because mind you even anywhere like that would have been fucking gnarly this is in california oh so it's hot yeah and putrid how did he even walk in there i don't know but it didn't take long for him to get like forced out of the house basically by the [15:01] smell of everything. So just to be blunt. So since he'd already explained to his boss what he thought had happened, there was really no need for him to explain what he had just walked into. So he just got back in the car and said, [15:13] They did it. Oh, that is so chilling. It's haunting. So Nick, his boss, was shocked, but he was like... [15:19] I think we need to call the police now. So fair. Hello? Such a fair statement. Super fair. Good person in a leadership role. Love to see it. It's good you had your boss with you. That was like, we should call the police. Yeah. He said, here's what we do when things like this happen. So once they got back to Beverly Hills, Richard called with an anonymous tip to 911, basically saying that he needed to report this tip. And when the dispatcher was like, okay, what's this regarding? [15:49] Oh... [15:50] Which, like, holy shit. That dispatcher was probably like, what? Yeah. So, assuming it was only going to be a well-being check, the San Diego County Sheriff's Office only dispatched two officers to the address. It's always good to underreact. [16:04] you know, [16:05] We tell so many cases where they're just like, ah, it's probably it. We'll check it in four days or like we'll send one and a half people. Yeah. It's like underreact. I don't know about that. That's what I always say. So they sent them to the house, which the Heavensgate members, by the way, referred to as the monastery.

[16:23] So it's like, it's just so, it's so spooky. It's so spooky. It's very spooky. It's, it's metal. And it's such, it's very much an amalgamation of so many different ideologies. Like the monastery, it's like that. [16:35] It's just so many different things put together. We'll get a little more into it and what the beliefs started as, what they evolved into. It's all over the place. But so they got to the monastery and the deputies, again, found the side door unlocked just like Richard had. And inside, they were immediately hit with a, quote, pungent odor that basically forced them right back out of the house. They didn't even get to be in there as long as Richard was. The scene inside the house was unlike anything either of them had ever seen before. Yeah. [17:03] When they went back in, in the first room they entered, they discovered the bodies of 10 men. [17:08] all laid out on metal framed beds in a row. One of the officers said they looked so peaceful that they almost appeared to be sleeping. Each body was dressed in black pants, black Nike sneakers, and the head and upper torso of each, like I said, was covered in the purple shroud. On their arms, there was a custom patch that read Heaven's Gateway Team, which was a reference to the teams on Star Trek, the planetary exploration teams. [17:37] people. Yeah. [17:38] In the pockets of each, for some reason, there's so many... [17:42] chilling details about this but for some reason i don't know why this is the thing that really gets me and every person's pocket they found a five dollar bill and a roll of quarters and at the foot of each bed or cot whatever had you there was a suitcase or a bag fully packed oh because they fully believed that they were going yeah

[18:03] And they literally had their fare. [18:05] That's really sad. I think that's what gets me so much is just how sad that is. Yeah. [18:12] So the two responding officers did their best to just conduct a search of the crime scene. But the home was massive and the conditions inside were unbearable pretty quickly. So they had to head back to their vehicle again and just wait for additional resources. Dan Christ later told a reporter from the L.A. Times they lost count at 10, referring to the responding officers attempt to determine how many victims were actually inside. [18:35] When backup finally did get there a little bit later, the two officers were sent to the hospital because the two original officers, because everybody was so concerned that these deaths could have been caused by some kind of exposure to like a toxic gas or something that they needed to be checked out. Yeah, that's a valid theory. Yeah. So it didn't take long for the medical examiner, Dr. Brian Blackburn, to confirm the cause of death and dispel any rumors of toxic gas, I guess, luckily. Yeah. [19:05] all 39 individuals discovered in the house, which was 21 women and 18 men. They had all died from ingesting a mix of phenobarbital and vodka. Holy shit. Investigators also found several plastic bags and elastic bands that were scattered around the house. So as far as the medical examiner could tell, it seemed like they, the members had died in three waves over the course of three days. What the fuck? So this wasn't, I don't think I've ever heard that before, actually. I haven't either,

[19:35] everybody took it laid down like jones town yeah you know this was over the course of three days and it started on march 22nd so they watched people die helped people and helped people and then did it whoo yeah so it was later learned that when one among the first wave died one of the living members removed the bag from around their head positioned the body neatly on the bed placed the purple cloth over their face and they realized this because only two of the bodies were [20:05] bull shroud across their face. Because they were the last two. Because they were the last two. So they were put they had like plastic bags on their head like they were suffocating as well. Some of them did. I think it was just to ensure that if... [20:15] if what they took didn't take effect, that they would still make it on their trip. That's even... And people were just ensuring this. [20:24] for each other for three days just being in that house with helping people die yeah [20:31] And like the last people were just... Two waves of people had already died and were just laying right there next to them. [20:39] Oh, my God. Yeah, that's now, according to the medical examiner, there was no sign of violence, no sign of resistance. But eight of the 18 men, including Marshall Applewhite, who, again, was the head of this all, had been castrated at some point long before their deaths, actually. Oh, as like part of this whole thing? Yeah, it had to have been part of the beliefs. He said this is not something they did themselves and added that it also had not been done recently.

[21:09] surgery. The way that I remember hearing about this is that [21:13] It was a surgical castration. Yeah. That was done. It makes sense. Because like he said, they didn't do this themselves. So they... [21:21] opted to have that done so in the days that followed investigators learned that the members of heaven's gate believed that quote sexual organs were unneeded in the next world and could actually be a hindrance to gaining admission into that world oh see because i was before that second part i was like well you know just carry them in like an appendix you don't necessarily need it but [21:41] you know, that's nice. But I guess if it's going to be a problem getting in, it would be a hindrance. You don't even need to carry it with it. You don't want to. So regardless of their philosophy, the Castorations were still obviously like one of the more confounding aspects of the case. Yeah. Dr. Blackburn said it's not something a legitimate physician would do on an individual person upon request. That was going to be my next thing was like, what doctor did this? I don't know. Was it a doctor? Yes. I have no idea. Or someone else who surgically did it [22:11] Or maybe they had surgical experience at one point. Yeah. Because the fact that the doctor was like, it didn't look like they did this. Like it wasn't. Yeah, like they didn't do it themselves. You know, it looked professional. Yeah. So while the medical examiner's office worked day and night to process all of these bodies, because this is so many, 39 bodies, the San Diego Sheriff's Department started processing the scene inside the house.

[22:41] of anything even resembling religious material or symbolism in any way. [22:46] Instead, the house was mostly full of computers and other electronics. And it turned out that while the group's main focus was on their religious beliefs and, you know, moving on to this next world or planet, they actually spent most of their time on their company, which was called Higher Source Contract Enterprises. And that was a web development company that they operated to fund Heaven's Gate. [23:16] And as far as investigators could tell, almost all of the members of Heaven's Gate were experienced in IT or web design in some way. Yeah. Which is also like... [23:27] That's like a well-educated group. Yeah. Yeah. According to one higher source client, they were very professional. We got more for $1,000 than other companies who paid a lot more. [23:38] hmm that's very interesting it is like like you said these were smart people yeah [23:53] Improving your sleep can feel overwhelming. It's like, do I need a new mattress? Do I need to check this tracker that I'm on? Should I be taking this supplement? Oh my god, I think I need blackout curtains. Whoa, it's overwhelming. Upgrade your sleep by upgrading your bedding though with bowl and branch. It's simple. Signature satin sheets, breathable pillows, cozy waffle bed blankets, I freaking love a waffle bed blanket, and beautifully crafted comforters work together

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[26:22] Take a pause with therapy. BetterHelp can help life feel manageable again. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash morbid. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid. [26:36] Every good detective needs a partner to support them on important cases. Think of a State Farm agent like your sidekick, there to help you along the way in your search for coverage. State Farm can help you choose the coverage you need, whether it's for your home, car, boat, or even RV. With so many options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you so you can get back to solving all of life's bigger cases. Go to statefarm.com or [27:06] neighbor, State Farm is there. So while the inside of the house didn't provide a ton of information about the group or what would have motivated them to take their own lives, fortunately, the neighbors proved to be a little bit more insightful. The owner of the home, Sam, I hope I don't mess this up, I looked it up, Kouches Fahani, he had purchased the house in 1994 and he wanted to flip it for a [27:32] But after a few years passed without any buyer for this massive home, he was like, you know, I'll just rent it out. And Heaven's Gate ended up renting out the property and they moved in in October of that year. Since then, several realtors had shown or tried to show the property, but all the prospective buyers were kind of put off by the members of Heaven's Gate. Yeah, I mean, when you are looking at a place and a cult lives there.

[27:56] Weird vibes. It's at least going to make you think. I would say, you know what, I'm going to buy some sage, probably. Yeah, like the vibes may be a little off. Get a few crystals. Get a little new agey myself, in fact. There you go. Just a different kind. Just different kind. One realtor said, I tried to share the home to buyers, but there was always some sort of religion meeting going on. Oh, yeah. [28:16] And then other real send me away. Yeah, I'd be like, bye. Other realtors had like similarly strange interactions with the members. Local agent Bob Dyson said there were computers everywhere. There were men and women all had crew cuts, including the women. They were very Android like they referred to each other as brother and sister. Yeah, no way. It was just very like. [28:35] It almost sounds like a cartoon. Yeah, it sounds like a futuristic cartoon. It sounds like how somebody would write a cult. Yes. You know, like a fictional cult. Very on the nose. And that would definitely send me, I'd be like, you know what, you do you here, but I don't want this property. I don't think I'm going to be living here. I don't think I want the energy that comes with this. So the realtors definitely thought they were strange and so did the potential homebuyers. But the neighbors who had a little more like interactions with them had positive memories of the group. Oh, that's nice. [29:05] Shelby Strong told a reporter they could not have been quieter, nicer neighbors. Well, that's just great. And her husband Bill said they certainly didn't disturb any of the neighbors here. There's nothing to object to. [29:15] Wow. So it's nice that they weren't like sacrificing any animals. Yeah, I mean, a real situation, it really is a thing like they're just doing their thing. Yeah. And it sounds like their neighbors let them. Seemed like it. Yeah. You know, what are you going to do? So another man who owned a car wash in the area, he had gotten to know a few of the members in the months leading up to their deaths, and he described them as very loving and the nicest, sweetest guys you could ever meet.

[29:36] Well, that just makes me sad. It's super sad. [29:38] This whole thing is very sad. Yeah. I think... [29:41] like the belief system that they really thought they weren't, they weren't ending their lives. They were beginning new lives in their, in their minds. And it's like, [29:51] And cults are always really sad, like these kind of cults, especially when they end like this. Yeah. Because it's like people who, like these people were lost, like, and obviously looking for something. And very much done with whatever they had here on this plane. Yeah, and then like to find it with this kind of situation and then have somebody tell them like, I can get you somewhere that's going to be amazing and away from all these problems that you have. Yeah. These worries that you're dealing with. [30:17] And all they're doing is, you know... [30:20] Going to the farthest lengths possible. Yeah. Yeah. It's very sad. Yeah. So no matter how they were described, the group still had pretty much all the obvious hallmarks of a cult, like we were just saying. They were insular. They were reclusive. They all dressed the same. They didn't demonstrate any kind of individuality. And most importantly, they were very devoted to the bizarre teachings of their leader. [30:43] From the moment the deaths were reported, all anybody could think of was something I mentioned earlier, the mass deaths that had taken place in Jonestown two decades earlier, because it sounded very familiar. Yeah. And both events were entirely incomprehensible to anybody on the outside. Undersheriff Jack Drown said, We are proceeding with the preliminary conclusion that what we are looking at is, in fact, 39 suicides. I'm not too sure we'll ever have satisfactory answers. Damn. Because...

[31:11] who's there to tell you anything, you know? I was just going to say, they're really just trying to derive things off of a scene of 39 dead people. And one person who called in and was like, [31:20] I knew they were going to do this. Like, here they are. So whatever answers came in the weeks and months that followed weren't really likely to satisfy anybody who was curious. But there was an explanation for what had happened at the compound. And it turned out that the key to understanding the deaths was in understanding the leader himself, Marshall Applewhite. Yeah, who's this guy? [31:40] He has got an interesting story. So Marshall Herff Applewhite was born May 17, 1931 in Spur, Texas, to Louise and Marshall Applewhite Sr., a homemaker and a Presbyterian minister, respectively. As the child of a minister, obviously religion played a pretty significant role in Marshall's life from the time he was born, and he participated actively and actually enthusiastically in the church that his dad ran. [32:10] especially when he got more involved in student groups and extracurriculars, but it didn't deplete entirely. Yeah. According to his sister, Louise, the family led a kind of nomadic life during their childhood. As one of the leaders of the Texas Presbyterian community, Marshall Sr. uprooted his family every few years to move from one small South Texas community after another. They were just constantly moving around Texas. That must be tough. [32:40] on. [32:40] So after his graduation from Corpus Christi High School in 1948, Marshall enrolled at Austin College in Sherman, Texas, and he pursued a degree in philosophy.

[32:51] which is kind of on the nose. I was going to say. His former roommate said that Marshall was religious, but not fanatically at that point. He said he was an extrovert. He was popular. He was very smart. He wasn't pushy. [33:03] And that memory seems to check out. During this period, Marshall's religious activities definitely took a backseat to his other school activities. He was on the Judiciary Council, and he was the leader of the school's a cappella choir. Wow. So it wasn't like he was running around spreading all his views at this point. No, and he wasn't, like, isolating or, you know. He was very much involved. Hyper fixating on certain things, yeah. Yeah, like he had some kind of faith that he followed, but it wasn't necessarily the focal point of his life. [33:33] He was varied in his interests, it seems. So once he got his degree from Austin College in 1952, he enrolled at Union Presbyterian Seminary in Richard, Virginia. And that was when he planned to follow in his father's footsteps. But by the end of his first year, he missed being involved with music. So he actually dropped out of the program and took a position as the director of music at the First Presbyterian Church in Gastonia, North Carolina, I think it is. Former choir member Edith Warren said he had a beautiful voice. [34:03] person and he was a strong leader. [34:06] Oh, that'll give you goosebumps. Yeah. Especially, like, hearing that in this context. Yeah. Hearing that otherwise, you're like, oh my god, good job. Good for him. Look at you. You're like, leader vibes. Yeah. Now you're like, oh. Yeah, he took that to a dark place. Yeah. So it was during this time, which was around 1953, that he met and married Ann Pierce. They became friends with, actually, that woman, Edith Warren, and her husband, who were also newlyweds. And they just started spending a ton of time together as couple friends.

[34:36] new life in North Carolina was disrupted when he was drafted in 1954. For the two years that followed, he and Anne lived in Salzburg, Austria, actually. [34:46] And then he was relocated to White Sands, New Mexico, where he served as an instructor in the Army Signal Corps. Two years later, after he was honorably discharged from the Army, he and Ann moved to Colorado. He finished his graduate degree at the University of Colorado. He actually got a master's in music. And then his plan was to pursue a career in musical theater. [35:06] So he went all over the place, pretty much. You wish he had followed that path. Yeah. Well, during that time, he and Anne actually had two children. Oh, wow. And Anne basically just spent most of her time focused on raising her family while Marshall was looking into his musical theater career. After he got his degree, they moved the family to New York City. Obviously, that's the best place where you can pursue your music professional singing career. [35:36] It wasn't going to be financially sustainable for a family. [35:40] It's a lot of hit and miss. Yeah. So the family went back south where Marshall bounced from one short-lived job to another. He just was kind of doing whatever he needed to at that point to try to feed his family. His sister said during those years, Marshall was really devoted to his children. [35:54] Oh, that's nice. It is for the time being. While he may have been devoted to his children, by the early 1960s, the relationship between Marshall and Ann became strained. What Ann didn't know, and really what nobody knew at that point, was that Marshall was struggling with his sexuality and had been from a young age.

[36:24] a male student. And when the relationship was discovered in 1965, he was obviously fired. As he should be. Yeah. The reasoning for his firing inevitably made its way to his wife, who was devastated. So they separated that year, but they remained married for three more years before they finally divorced in 1968. Wow. So that same situation actually went down a second time in 1970. He was fired again, [36:54] Thomas in Houston. And that year, school administrators discovered he was having a relationship again with a male student. Oh, so he's like being a predator. Yeah. Yeah. But the school's official reasoning for termining his employment was listed as health problems of an emotional nature. Oh. Which is very telling. Yeah. So... [37:14] No good. No, that's very predatory behavior, my friend. Yeah, definitely. [37:20] So even though his being fired from a Christian university was almost certainly related to, one, being predatory, and two, his sexuality, this was the first time that anybody had actually addressed his poor mental health. He was really going through it. Yeah. Around this time, Patsy Swayze, the legit mother of Patrick Swayze. Oh, I was like, Swayze, you said? Correct. Wow. She was in a local theater group with Marshall Applewhite. What the fuck? [37:50] a change in his behavior around this time. Mama Swayze? Mama Swayze. She said he was normally well-spoken, but suddenly she and a lot of others in the group noticed that he started to, quote, act strangely, talking about UFOs and preaching this strange religion. Oh, then that's like, that's so unsettling to just have such a switch in personality. And it was so marked. Yeah, that's the thing. Even, I mean, Mama Swayze noticed it. Mama Swayze noticed. Yeah, so what?

[38:20] mama. It's true. So what Mama Swayze and the other group, the others in the group didn't know was that in addition to Marshall's having been fired, he also came out to his parents and, [38:29] was immediately and aggressively rejected by his father. Nothing about that will ever make sense to me. No. Ever. No. On any level. You shouldn't have kids if you're afraid that they're going to be gay. If you're not going to love them no matter what. Exactly. Like... [38:43] Anyway, not long after, he was hospitalized with, or I should say he was allegedly hospitalized with a blockage in his heart that he supposedly almost died from. His sister believed that it was that near-death experience and the influence of one of his nurses that really led to the profound shift in his personality and his lifestyle. Oh, no. She said, one of the nurses there told him he had a purpose, that God kept him alive. She sort of talked him into the fact that this was his purpose, to lead these people, and he took it from there. [39:13] you [39:15] I can't imagine being that there's. [39:18] That's rough. You definitely can't imagine being that nurse because she becomes a huge part of this story. Oh, no. [39:26] is, like, she gets lost a lot. She's, like, kind of one of the founding members of Heaven's Gate. Because I was going to say, I thought you were just going to say she was this nurse who helped him. Just like a sweetie. And then innocuously said to him, like... [39:40] you're here for a purpose, like lead people. You know what I mean? Like trying to be like, you're here. Like you have a purpose, a destiny. Just like that sweet lady that you see in the movie. And you're like, aw. I thought that's what that was going to be. And then he became Marshall Applewhite of the Heaven's Gate cult. And she was like, fuck, I just meant...

[39:56] live like i thought she was gonna be like damn it i didn't mean that i i thought the same thing when i first started learning about this but then uh i found out very quickly that they essentially like merged brains whoa it's crazy okay so we'll get into that yeah so it turned out that marshall had actually lied about the health scare uh and that he had actually checked himself into a psychiatric hospital oh in part for the treatment of his declining emotional health but also and this is really sad in search of a cure for his sexuality that's so sad because this was a time [40:26] People literally believed they could be cured of being gay. But it was an issue that needed to be cured. Yeah. So the rest does seem to be true. He did meet a nurse at the hospital. Her name was Bonnie Nettles. And she did convince him that he was special and that God had a plan for him. And she told him that God's plan was for him to lead a new religious movement in America. Now, she's a nurse at a psychiatric hospital, correct? Okay. [40:51] Don't do that. Don't do that. If you're a nurse at a psychiatric hospital. Step one. [40:55] Don't do that. Don't do that. Step two. Don't tell your patients that it's their job to lead a new religious movement in America. Yeah. Write that down. I'm going to blanket statement that. I think that's fair. Don't do that. Someone will disagree with you, but I think that's fair. 100% someone will tell me I'm being an asshole for saying that. [41:13] I stand by this stance. Eleven toes down. With my whole chest, I'm saying it. She literally motioned. She said, here it is. All of it. Don't do it. Don't. [41:23] I requested you. Don't, because this will happen. Yeah, I don't. And we're not even halfway through. No. So that was it all.

[41:30] That wasn't even it. Whatever plan God had for Marshall Applewhite, [41:34] She said, [41:35] i'm going along with you oh yeah she's like god wants me bonnie by your side nobody me bonnie you clied bonnie how'd you get this job we religion i don't actually bonnie i don't think they were really doing lots of background checks apparently not because what the fuck yeah just leading them into the fire yeah she sure is holy shit so even though it's been 30 years at this point and a ton has been written throughout those years about heaven's gate and its founders as well a lot of [42:05] Yeah. [42:15] because the group changed their name, their beliefs, and their organizational structure. [42:20] a ton of times over two decades. Zeller wrote, these many changes make Heaven's Gate more difficult to characterize, but they actually reveal something very important. The group demonstrated flexibility. Yeah, which is very interesting. I was going to say, for a cult, that's not a commonality with other ones. So the group that would eventually become known to the world and us right now as Heaven's Gate started when Marshall was discharged from the hospital [42:50] Yeah, he was already divorced. He had already been disowned by his parents. So he really didn't have a lot to hold on to in Texas. [42:58] He did have his two children. I'm...

[43:00] Thank you. But I don't know. I was like, he does have these... [43:04] two things i don't know usually i'm very quick to be like fuck you if you abandon your children and i don't know what the case was if he like wasn't allowed to see them yeah because of everything that was going on that's a valid thought who knows yeah he may very well have abandoned his children yeah but i don't know so one day in the mid 70s he just abandoned his life and he showed up at his sister's house to say his formal goodbyes [43:27] His sister Louise remembered he told me he wasn't going to see us anymore. I said to him, what's the matter with you? That's not the real you. And his response was, you just don't know the real me. [43:37] And that was the last time that she or anyone else in her family would ever see or hear from Marshall ever again. [43:46] That's really sad. It's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. Like, to have that be so unceremoniously... [43:52] disappearing and the last words ever spoken to you don't know you actually don't know the real me [43:57] That's so sad. Because she's probably like, well, I'd like to. Like, what the fuck do you mean? And I'm worried about you. Like, I care for you. I love you. That's so scary. Yeah. So by the time Marshall and Bonnie met, which was in the mid-70s at this point, Bonnie herself had dabbled in various forms of spirituality, but she hadn't really found the one that fit for her. She had been raised Baptist, but she was never devout. And she spent her adult years exploring things like astrology, telepathy, theosophy. Is that how you say that? Sure. Cool. [44:27] That was actually a kind of spiritualism that became popular in later 19th century England. Okay. If you want to look into that. Give it a shot. Even though she hadn't found anything that felt authentic to her at that point, she was still searching for something.

[44:40] most likely to distract herself from her failing marriage and deeply unsatisfying home life. She was overwhelmed caring for four young children. [44:51] I'm going to stay quiet. Yeah. In 1972, Bonnie divorced her husband, abandoned her children, and embarked on a more deliberate journey of spiritual seeking. Yeah. [45:01] I feel like any higher level that you're going to connect to, like, I don't know what's out there. Who am I to say? Um, [45:07] I feel like any higher level out there that you want to connect to will probably want you to be connected to your children. [45:16] Yeah, I mean, if I was a higher level, I would be pretty judgy if you abandoned your children. Facts. Put that on a shirt. That's hypothetical. If I'm a higher level, I'm judging you for abandoning your children. That's if I became a higher level of being. If. So when Marshall's sexual frustrations and declining mental health merged with Bonnie Nettles' growing interest in spiritualism, what emerged was what they both called the human individual metamorphosis. [45:46] could transcend their human existence and become a more evolved being. [45:51] Like beyond human. [45:53] Okay. So that new religious framework gave them both a worldview that was definitely a lot more hopeful and exciting than the lives that they had been living, for sure. Yeah. But at the same time, their spiritual bond created a mutually supportive relationship that met all the emotional needs that you would typically find with a romantic partner. There just wasn't the sexual component that had caused Marshall so much psychological stress in the past. So this is kind of perfect for what they wanted. Yeah. Yeah.

[46:21] In a 1976 interview, Marshall said of Bonnie, I felt I had known her forever. It was as if we were being guided by forces greater than ourselves. We were snatched from our previous lives. [46:33] It's like, no, you walked away from them. Yeah. This reminds me of... [46:38] The Amy character in True Blood. [46:40] yes it is very that she absolutely would have been a part of heaven's gate yeah [redacted address] they talk and everything yeah that just she may have she may have founded heaven she might if she was a real person yeah go watch true blood oh so good and listen to the re-watcher where we talk about true we're almost done with the first season you better go check it out right now it's just reminding me of her [47:00] True Blood is also coming up a lot in my life lately. I was listening to Sup the other day, and Lara was saying that she needs to start watching True Blood again. Yeah, she does. She was like, I want to rewatch it. Rewatch it. But then I fast forwarded because I didn't want any spoilers. Smart. But I was like, damn, that's weird that that randomly came up. Yeah. Anyway, throughout the next few years, they both decided to set out to share their new beliefs, because everybody wants to hear about everybody else's beliefs. And not long after meeting, they founded the Christian Arts Center, which was kind of like a combination bookstore slash [47:30] that was in Houston. The store failed after just a few months. So they moved and they opened up the Know Place, K-N-O-W. Oh, the Know Place. The Know Place, being the know. You come in and they're just like, no, no. Do you have a bathroom? No. But K-N-O-W, you should know, man. You should just know. It was essentially the same store, just in a different location, and ultimately lasted about as long and then failed. Weird that that happened. It's crazy. When the Know Place, the Know Place,

[48:00] the word even more about their beliefs because it was working out so well for them and here's the thing [48:04] Why don't you just have them? [48:06] Yeah. Just have the belief. If you meet people together and they ask you by all means. But if you're just like going around being like, hey, you, I got to tell you about this form of spiritual higher living. You're going to be evolved and stop. Just stop. You want to have them have them. You want to talk about them. Talk about them. Don't go knocking on doors telling people about it. Don't do that. Don't solicit people's lives to tell them that they need to be part of your life. [48:34] beliefs. And maybe be sure before you tell a bunch of people that they can evolve into a higher spiritual form. Just saying. Yeah, you should really do your research. Double check that. Yeah. Run that through a few schematics before you go saying that that's like a sure thing. That's just our recommendation. The morbid wreck. Yep. Wow. Excuse me. Ash just transformed into a higher life form. You should leave that in. I approve it. Sorry that you had to hear that. She just [49:04] I tell you about my beliefs. I have to test them. Just kidding. [49:07] *music* [49:16] you [49:17] If you're not familiar with Mooncat, all of their nail lacquers are like nail art in a bottle. Every single shade is a work of art intentionally crafted with only the highest quality pigments and designed to be as long lasting as they are extraordinarily out of this world. These are some of the prettiest nail polishes I've ever seen in my life. We're talking colors you've never seen before. Shifty polishes that constantly transform colors in different lighting. How freaking cool is that?

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[53:27] so after leaving houston they spent years traveling around the u.s they gave interviews at this point they were just speaking wherever and whenever they could find an appearance or an audience at first their message didn't appeal much to the masses if you can believe it but by the end of seven yeah and by the end of 1973 they had only attracted a [53:51] one member to their movement. To be honest, that's more than I thought they would get. One. It just reminds me of that Full House episode where Jesse invents that thing and he's like, 3,000. [54:00] And one. They're like, where is spiritual movement? [54:03] With one. [54:05] So they found one. But soon their beliefs started to find some traction as, you know, the New Age movement grew in popularity. The 1970s, man. Free love, baby. Movements. Yeah. Movements. Movements. By the 1970s, they amassed more than [redacted address] more. It's 199 more. Yeah. By that time, their identities had also kind of solidified into what they would be for the rest of their lives. They were... [54:34] "'The two.' [54:36] The two. The two who were two figures described in the book of Revelations who would witness the end of human civilization and then be born again. [54:47] This is so much work. Also, that's as far as I know it. Please don't tell me all about it. Yeah, this is so much work, it feels. Yeah. That's the thing with these cults. [54:56] It's a lot of upkeep. And that's why I know...

[54:59] No way, no how. Would I ever be involved? Because I'm like, this is too much. You're doing too. You're working harder, not smarter. My favorite part, though, of cults is they're like, we're the two, whoever the higher form is told us. But eventually they become something else, too. Of course. Like they are the two, but then they become this and this and that. But they've already indoctrinated everyone. So they're able to change like that. And people just go, yep. Yeah. [55:24] Like it's like how mother God was yeah, like 45 different people go. We see it happening all over the place. If you guys, speaking of cults and this is like a little bit old, but if you haven't watched the love has one documentary, you know, [55:37] You've got to watch that. But I think be warned. Be super warned. It's graphic and it opens up with a graphic. Like there's there's a body being shown. Yeah. Just so you know ahead of time. It's different. But it's a really, really interesting documentary. But anyway, back to this cult. Benjamin Zeller noted in pinning their religious identities and the admissions on this passage from Revelations. [56:07] the conservative, evangelical Protestantism of the time. [56:11] So basically they were like, [56:13] aligning themselves with some other religious things going on. Yeah. In layman's terms. Let's go. So essentially they would go on to blend their apocalyptic vision with their belief in aliens and all these unconventional concepts. And the core of their belief system definitely hinted at the dark outcome for Heaven's Gate. Yeah. No matter how joyous and transcendent a rebirth might be.

[56:35] it still required death. That's the deal breaker. [56:39] Yeah, that would be my deal breaker if I hadn't already... [56:42] Felt like there was many along the way. Yeah, there's a few before that. That would be the biggest. But that's what's so sad about this is like the people who are getting roped into this, that's not a deal breaker because they're that unhappy. Because they're so lost and sad. And that's really sad. Down on their luck and what have you. Like that is not something. If that's not the deal breaker, then you have been through it. Yeah. And you've got a lot going on and somebody shouldn't be preying on you. Exactly. And that sucks. Exactly. So while the two continued building out their spiritual belief system, [57:12] Marshall Applewhite's grandiose sense of self and his psychological stability continued to shift, change, and decline. As Marshall Applewhite, Texic music teacher and closeted man, he didn't feel that he was anybody special and his future was basically bleak as far as he was concerned. But as one of the two, he felt he had been chosen by the divine for something more important than whatever was happening on Earth, and so he started acting like it. [57:39] In the summer of 1974, while they were traveling to spread their message, Marshall and Bonnie were both arrested multiple times on charges including credit card fraud and automobile theft. [57:50] Jeez. And when he was arrested for failing to return a rental car, Marshall, or one of the two, explained the incident by saying that he had been divinely authorized to keep the vehicle. That's, that's honestly just dickhead behavior. Can you imagine just trying to get away with all your poor behavior? Yeah, just saying I'm divinely authorized. I can steal this because I've been divinely authorized to like, come on. Come on. Also, that's not going to hold up in a court of law, baby. Nobody cares about the divines.

[58:20] It is. So the late 70s was definitely transformational for both of the two. They abandoned their previous moniker, though, of the two, and they started referring to each other as Bo and Peep. [58:33] That's for real. [58:34] That's when you know people were really... [58:37] fucked under this. Oh, I thought you meant the two of them. It's almost like they changed that to see... [58:43] if how how strong the hold was i think that and i think they were getting so lost in all of this that they were there was no tie to reality at this point in time and the same at the same time and this is how i know that their mythology and beliefs were also evolving they seem to include like especially now at this point all of their ideologies seem to include a more like science [59:13] because people had dropped off at that point in time, that a spaceship was coming to Earth, and it would only take 30 of them. [59:20] So they all camped out in Oregon waiting for the ship to arrive, but it didn't. And then so they were like, oh, we had our calculations wrong because cults do that a lot. And then they repeated the claim a few months later. [59:34] And again. [59:35] The ship didn't come. [59:37] this is definitely where they got the, um, [59:41] the cult from Parks and Rec. [59:44] The one who changes the time that the spaceship's going to come or Zorp is going to come. I don't know if I made it that far in Parks and Rec. I got it. Aren't they called the rationalists?

[59:54] I think there's something like that. It's like, and they, they named themselves that. So nobody could argue with it because it's rational. Incredible. I'm making sure. And they changed the time. No, they're the reasonableness. The reasonableness. That's what it is. Cause you can't argue with somebody who's reasonable. And they changed. That's actually brilliant. They changed the date of the time when Zorp is going to come and destroy everybody or take everybody into it. Cause they like are going to be like risen up and ascended. Yeah. Yeah. They change it. [1:00:23] And they just keep changing it. Yeah. Like, every time he doesn't show up, they're just like, well, Zorp is coming next time. That's the same thing as, like, the... [1:00:33] What was the thing that just happened? The rapture? The rapture. Yeah, that changes all that. It's always rapture season. It's all about moving the goalpost, you know? Yeah. And this reminds me of it, though, that they're like, well, they didn't show up. It's next month. Wait, it's actually next month. That's literally the reasonableness. Yeah. They're just not reasonable. Yeah. [1:00:50] Organize it, Zorp. That's what he wrote a book about it. [1:00:54] Oh, I've heard that before. I got to finish Parks and Rec. You do. It's great. I love Parks and Rec. So when the spaceship failed to arrive, a lot of people among their followers started to feel like this was all a bit more larky, and they left the group. Good for them. And that dropped Bonnie and Marshall, or excuse me, Bo and Peep's numbers, from over a hundred to just a few dozen at that point. I hope those people... [1:01:15] like went to get help yeah like got i hope their lives got better yeah exactly i hope this was an experience and they can just go wow

[1:01:24] That was crazy. I hope it was like when Mr. Matthews saves Sean Hunter from the cult. And Sean realizes that it's... You can't have Sean. And I said, oh my God, Mr. Matthews. I said... [1:01:36] Mr. Matthews. I was like, whoa, Mr. Matthews. I think every time we talk about a cult, we're like, Mr. Matthews. [1:01:47] And so that this really is like, I hope it was like that. I hope it was. And I hope Mr. Matthews showed up on the spot and was like, the spaceship didn't come and you're coming with us. You can't. They can't have you. No, we're going to feed you dinner tonight. But I really do. I hope they all like lived happier lives. I do too. I hope this was like a good. [1:02:03] A growing moment. Yeah, I'm sure it was. So in addition to the mass exodus of people who I definitely know lived a happier life. Yeah, I'm going with that. Things took a turn for the worse when the press got involved and started accusing the two leaders of brainwashing. Yeah, a grift. Sparkle, sparkle, sparkle. A grift, exactly. At a time when concerns about the danger of cults was beginning to spread around the U.S., nothing could have been more harmful to their movement. So in response, Bonnie Nettles announced in 1976 that the group would no longer hold public meetings. [1:02:33] Oh, and instead they shifted their focus to giving private lectures. Oh, OK. And said, wow, you know what? [1:02:39] That'll teach everyone. Yeah. How cool of you. [1:02:42] So the human individual metamorphosis movement continued into the 80s, with the small group of followers expanding and contracting year after year. They picked some up, they dropped some off. They picked some up, they dropped them off. But they never reached more than 100 members. During that period, Bonnie and Marshall, who had rebranded yet again,

[1:03:01] And we're now going by the names of T and Doe. [1:03:04] They developed a kind of paranoia that grew out of their apocalyptic beliefs. Among other things, they worried that either they or somebody amongst their group was going to be assassinated. Obviously, that fear was influenced by Jonestown. But the group continued traveling around the U.S. for a few years, living off whatever money its members had picked up and picking up new members here and there. [1:03:28] At first, the structure of the group was informal, but over time it did start to take on a more rigid form. Marshall demanded that if members were going to travel with them, they had to cut themselves off entirely from their families and fully abandon their previous lives. [1:03:43] So that's that's the that's the red flag. Yeah, that's it right there. And here's some more. Oh, no. In time, they dictated what people ate, what they wore. And most importantly, what kind of relationships they could have. Oh, and they informed everybody that if they wanted to ascend to a higher plane, quote unquote. [1:04:03] they could not engage in any kind of sexual relationship with another. Yeah. [1:04:07] Okay. [1:04:09] Yeah. Okay. [1:04:10] So the first sign of like, this doesn't seem healthy. No, it's definitely not. The first sign of real, real trouble came in 1985 after Bonnie Nettles died from liver cancer. Oh. For over 10 years at that point, she and Marshall had been codependent and fully expected to receive their celestial rewards together. But Bonnie's death obviously caused Marshall to spiral even deeper into his delusional thinking. And he had a full blown crisis of faith.

[1:04:38] In the years that followed, the group bounced around the Southwest, occasionally adding new members, but mostly losing them. And all at that time, Marshall's beliefs and expectations got much more rigid. By 1993, the members of him, just so we don't have to say the full thing every time, had dropped to just a few dozen. So in June, Marshall placed an ad in USA Today to try to recruit new members. I actually had no idea that that happened. I didn't know that. Dave found this piece of information and I said, [1:05:08] Excuse me, Dave? I said Dave what? Dave what? Yeah. Well, that marked the first time the members of Heaven's Gate used a computer to grow their organization. And it turned out that not only was the incorporation of technology a useful and convenient tool, but it also fit very well within their science fiction adjacent belief system. Oh, yeah, it does. So in the fall of 95, the remaining members of what eventually became Heaven's Gate rented a property in a remote part of New Mexico. [1:05:38] And then in that October, they moved to the San Diego County area. Oh, okay. At first, they lived in various homes. And that was before the remaining 40 or so members finally settled at the $7,000 a month ranch. Holy shit. Mansion, excuse me, in Rancho Santa Fe. [1:05:56] I wonder why they abandoned that other one. Yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah. [1:06:00] Who knows? Maybe the ship wasn't coming there. Yeah, maybe. I wonder if it had anything to do, actually, with the Hillbop Comet. Oh, maybe. Like the path. They were following the path. Yeah, but $7,000 a month back then? I mean, yeah. That's huge. $7,000 a month is wild. Yeah. So it was during that period that they started their web design and IT business that I mentioned earlier. That was higher source contract enterprises.

[1:06:30] Marshall started planning the quote unquote final phase of his mythology, exiting Earth for the next level. Oh, you just wish everybody could have seen. And you wonder how many people knew this is complete and unrecognizable. [1:06:44] dog shit but they literally just wanted to die it's and felt like this was an [1:06:51] like a more community-based moment of everybody doing it together, which made it not as scary. Yeah. That's what I always think of is like, how sad is that? That's the thing. And maybe just like, [1:07:02] They almost let themselves believe it, but like somewhere in their minds knew that this was not it. Like if some of them had just this is what they wanted to do and it made it less scary. Yeah. Like it's just really sad. It is really sad. Well, in the wake of the deaths in Rancho Santa Fe, like at the mansion, two other members who had already left the compound by that point also ended their own lives. Wow. Wow. [1:07:27] one in May and the other in February of the following year. Because I can't imagine knowing that these 39 people who you, who basically were family. Yeah. Like, because they like live together, they live together, they work together, they eat together, they do everything together. You do form human bombs. Of course. You find out that 39 of the people who you were closest to over the last few years, [1:07:48] all died at once. Like, I don't know how you digest that. And that they all continued believing this thing so much that they went through with it. Right. So one part of them, if they've been indoctrinated and brainwashed enough, are probably thinking, wait, am I missing out? Right. Right.

[1:08:04] Right. And can I go with them? Yeah. If I do this? Absolutely. Just fucked up. But that meant that of the 42 members of Heaven's Gate who followed Marshall Applewhite to California... [1:08:14] The only one who remained alive was Richard Ford, who I started talking about in the beginning. That's wild. One member. So within a few weeks of the discovery at the house, the medical examiner's office had managed to identify all but one of those who died in the Heaven's Gate compound. And eventually they did identify the 39th person. We'll post everybody's name. Yeah, for sure. So the families were all notified of the deaths by the sheriff's department, obviously. But by then, this is so sad. [1:08:44] loved ones explaining what they were going to do or what they had already done at that point. That's chilling as hell. Which is similar to the letter and the video that Richard received. Yeah. In almost every case, the members of Heaven's Gate were excited about what they believed to be the next phase of their lives, too. Damn. According to Benjamin Zeller, members understood their actions not as deaths, but as graduations, cutting aside the decaying matter of Earth so as to free their true selves to journey to the next level in the heavens. Wow. [1:09:14] They were concerned to reject what Marshall believed was the final phase actually would have been the real tragedy. Wow. [1:09:21] Which is just... That's unthinkable. That's exactly what I was going to say. In a video message on Heaven's Gate website, Marshall Applewhite insisted that those left behind shouldn't feel sad for the members of the group. He said that they were excited to be shedding their containers and leaving this planet for a more evolved existence elsewhere.

[1:09:39] Wow. Which, like... [1:09:40] gives me a warm... [1:09:43] Now, obviously, members of Heaven's Gate throughout the years were pretty frequently dismissed as being crazy or having been brainwashed by Marshall and Bonnie. But Benjamin Zeller said that's honestly far too simplistic of a reaction. He wrote, it's just too easy to dismiss them as nuts. Members joined not because of some sort of magical, psychological or spiritual truth that the leaders conjured, but because they were looking for something and believed they found that in Heaven's Gate, which is exactly what you've been pointing out this whole time. [1:10:11] In his recollection of his time with the group in 1975, Robert Balk wrote, once I got to know the people, I realized they were not just members of some exotic cult, but ordinary people struggling to find meaning in their lives. Which is so fucking sad. He said, overall, they weren't much different from me or my friends. [1:10:29] And that aligns with the statements that Richard Ford gave in the wake of the tragedy. He said, I was always looking for answers, looking for purpose in my life. I loved these people, and it meant everything to me. Wow. Since he left the group in 97, Richard Ford, who has since changed his name, obviously struggled to find normalcy in his life. But in a 2017 interview, he said, I tried to get a job and people wouldn't hire me because they thought I was part of some crazy thing. Luckily, though, in time, he did manage to put his life back together, and he [1:10:59] Oh, see, I'm happy. And he eventually reflected and said, I'm a regular guy. I'm trying to be more of myself and a better person in every way that I can. Well, that's the best outcome. What's the best outcome? For the one surviving member. For the one person.

[1:11:14] And that is the tragic story of Heaven's Gate. [1:11:19] That's unbelievable. It really is. I knew... [1:11:23] like the basics i did i knew like the hillbop comment and that they were all found with nikes like the more salacious aspect yeah the things that people really like attached right but i didn't really know about marshall applewhite or but i didn't even know that there was a bonnie nettles yeah i remember hearing that word that word that name yeah but i didn't know the details i didn't know she played such a significant role yeah and then [1:11:44] Just. [1:11:45] Wow. How far back this all dated. [1:11:48] These kind of cults, they're scary. That's why, like, we haven't covered Jonestown. I know. That's actually crazy that we haven't covered Jonestown. It's because it's such an upsetting one. Like, we will eventually, but, like... [1:11:59] Jonestown is so... [1:12:01] It's so upsetting. People gave their kids the drink. Not babies. But it's also so interesting that there's political ties with that. Yeah, there's political shit in that. That one goes in many different directions. Yeah, I think we briefly talked about it on a crime countdown. We did, yeah. But that would be an interesting one. This one always fascinated me because it was such like a... [1:12:22] I remember it being talked about on the news. I remember those kind of things. And I remember seeing the Nike shoes and I remember like... [1:12:28] those like iconic pictures of you can just see the feet. And I remember being like, and it was all science fictiony and like, and it involved the comet weird. And the comet was involved. And that was such a big thing when it was happening. And it was like, [1:12:41] so shrouded in all this like weird of the time stuff. Yeah. That that's all I knew of it. Hearing all the details. It's just fucking sad. It is just sad. It's just like literally like the, somebody who was involved with them just said, I was looking for answers and purpose in my life. And you know, that's all anybody else that was involved in this was looking for purpose and answers and exactly like something better.

[1:13:06] Yeah. It was just really sad. Damn. But it makes me happy that the one member who really got away before everything happened, like, figured out his life. And he feels like he's trying to be more who he is. And a better person. And that he, like, reconnected with his family. [1:13:20] I'm happy for that. I know. Damn. Let me find a fun fact before we end this. I better find the funnest facts. Find the most fun. Funnest facts ever. I'm googling. [1:13:32] It's not the funnest fact, but it's a fun one. The bumblebee bat is the world's smallest flying mammal. Shut up. Yeah. They weigh... [1:13:41] Between .05 and .07 ounces. Oh my god, it's the cutest thing I've ever seen. Oh, I love them. Their head-to-body length is literally between... Get out of here, ad. Look at him. Their head-to-body length is between 1.14 to 1.29 inches. Oh, he's just a baby. Oh my god. I love them. Oh my god, I want a bumblebee bat. I love them. That's the most fun fact. Okay, I'm so glad. You're welcome. Especially when you put it together with... [1:14:11] a picture we'll post a picture and it will be so confusing to anybody who doesn't stay for the fun fact but we will post a picture i'm screaming i'm screaming they're also known as kitty's hog nosed bat no i know i love them i'm literally obsessed with him look at this guy he is doing him's best he is he is out here doing his best [1:14:35] I want one.

[1:14:37] Oh, I love him. Oh, all right. Go look at those. And don't tell other people how to live their lives. Yeah. Okay. Okay. But I'm going to tell you how to live your life. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. Bye. Oh, but not so weird that. I was like, what? Not so weird that cults, because don't cult. Don't cult. Cult bad. Yeah. Bumblebee good. Yes. Bumblebee that better. Oh, my God. I love them so much. Bye. They're so little. [1:15:07] Thank you. [1:15:37] Thank you.

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