LakerMania, NBA Expansion, WBC Lessons, and MBJ’s Moment With Billy Gil and Wesley Morris

[00:00] For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. [00:07] Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required. [00:30] of Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia today. Call [redacted phone] to learn more or visit TrimphiaRadio.com. [01:01] . [01:06] The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by Sam's Club. We're also brought to you by The Ringer. [01:10] podcast. [01:12] network where I put up two episodes of the rewatchables this week. We did to live and die in LA on Monday. [01:17] And then we did a special mailbag [01:19] on Wednesday night. That was a really good one. We did it in honor of CR Month. Chris Ryan and Craig Coralbeck, [01:24] We're on the mailbag. So if you missed it, go check it out over the weekend.

[01:30] Lots going on in this podcast. I deliberately waited... [01:34] Until tonight. [01:35] Thursday night because I wanted to watch March Madness. But there was also some NBA games I wanted to see. Charlotte, Miami. [01:40] San Antonio Phoenix and [01:43] the red hot Lakers in Miami. [01:45] And it turned out to be a good idea because a lot of stuff happened. So we're going to talk basketball at the top. Then Billy Gill is coming in to talk about the World Baseball Classic and what we learned and what we liked and what we didn't like. And then last but not least. [01:58] Our old friend, Wesley Morris, we are going to talk about not just the Oscars, but the year in movies in 2025 and Michael B. Jordan and a whole bunch of things. So we have basketball. [02:08] baseball, movies. It's all next. Let's take a break. Pearl Jam. And then I'm going to talk basketball. [02:13] This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by Sam's Club. It is that time of the year when you just got to get in your car and go somewhere. I've done that plenty of times in my life. Nowhere gets you ready to go quite like Sam's Club. [02:24] snacks, the gear. [02:26] Super low prices on gas. They got a bunch of stuff that keep you and the whole crew rolling. [02:31] And here's what you got to do. You got to join the club of yes and. [02:35] at samsclub.com slash yes and yes. [02:39] You must be 18 years or older to purchase a membership. A membership is subject to qualifications. Visit samsclub.com. [02:46] slash yes end. [02:48] for details.

[03:15] All right, so I'm taping this top part of the podcast. [03:19] time just watched a lot of NBA March Madness March Madness was really fun [03:24] We had a North Carolina, terrible loss for them. [03:27] We had Siena trying to do the 116 thing against Duke. [03:30] Had a couple other good games. We've lost... [03:33] A couple top lottery picks now. We lost Caleb Wilson already, and then North Carolina lost. And then sadly, we lost AJ, who was really good today as well. But NBA. [03:44] So, [03:45] Initially, I was going to do this gimmick, 10 Things I'm Watching. [03:48] Heading into the last basically 12, 13 games of the season. [03:51] And the top thing was, are the Lakers for real? And then the Lakers go... [03:57] into Miami. They're down in the second quarter. [04:01] And it just looks like, oh, man, third game in four nights. They won these two in Houston. [04:06] Looks like their luggage in this game, this is probably a throwaway game. They got it late the night before. [04:12] And then Luca just goes to another level. Luca ends up with 60 points. Luca... [04:18] Let's see, in March, after going 29 and 37, then he goes 40, 31, 38, 34, 36, 43, 39, 37, 37, 37. [04:28] And then 60%. [04:29] tonight. And look, his stats have been basically around the same for the last couple of years. [04:35] But it's different when you're watching him. There's a joy and a swagger that he has back. I know he has some... [04:40] some personal stuff going on and maybe he's channeling into the basketball, whatever is happening.

[04:45] He's locked in. He looks great. And there's so much going on with this Lakers team. I hate talking about it because when I was at ESPN, they would always be like, lead with the Lakers, lead with the Lakers no matter what's happening. I thought this Lakers team had no chance to do anything. It's basically a three-man team. [05:02] with a bunch of world players, the guys didn't make sense together. [05:05] Just watching Luka, Reeves, and LeBron all together, it just didn't fit. And then something has shifted. And I've watched their last four games intently, including both Houston games, and they've [05:18] And then this Miami game. The two Houston games were really impressive because they had back-to-backs in Houston. [05:25] And you normally when that happens, usually split one of them. [05:29] either you're there or you have to leave and then come back. And it's just like, it's always a disadvantage to the road team. So the game last night, which was televised, and it just seemed, Shang-Goon was back, and it just seemed like the classic, all right, the Lakers already got one, Houston will win this one. [05:43] And last five minutes... [05:46] I felt... [05:48] watching it in real time. [05:50] It was like something clicked in my head with the Lakers. We were like, shit. Because I don't like the Lakers, as you know. [05:56] You're watching going, shit. [05:59] Last five minutes, they have Luka. This is bad. This is bad for the other team. So the Lakers have turned on this team. As long as they can keep it close, [06:08] for the first 43 minutes, and they have that last five, now all of a sudden they have this [06:13] They have this incredible offensive player. They have a team that makes a lot more sense around him than it did even three weeks ago.

[06:19] And you just start to feel like they're going to pull out some of these games. Whereas a team like Houston, who's been bad in crunch time, right? No point guard. [06:26] toilet ball offense, Imadoka looks like he's in a half coma, and you feel like something bad's going to happen with them. You feel the opposite as you're watching Lakers. So what changed? [06:35] First of all, [06:36] I think J.J. Redick has to get credit for a lot of this because – [06:41] you're in this conundrum with your team where you have this generational offensive player [06:45] playing alongside a guy who wants a new contract, Austin Reeves, who's a really good offensive player, who could potentially be the lead offensive guy on some teams. And then LeBron, one of the greatest players of all time, [06:56] Not totally willing to accept a super huge world change. [07:00] which you could feel. There was a little [07:03] little push and pull. There was always like, all right, now it's my turn. And LeBron doing some of the old school stuff. Something has flipped. And I don't know what happened with the communication between the coaches and LeBron. [07:13] I don't know, LeBron, one of the smartest basketball players we've ever had. [07:17] Maybe his supercomputer brain figured it out. [07:20] He's embraced this different version of himself. And we've seen this version in the past. There was a more offensive version of it in the heat in the middle years, especially that great season when they had the 27-game winning streak when it seemed like he was going to try to shoot 60% for the whole year. [07:38] And he just didn't have a high usage rate, but whenever they needed him, he could make a play. And he was just so additive everywhere, and he was rebounding, playing defense, playing, [07:48] And he's kind of moved toward that version a little bit more, where he doesn't need the ball a lot.

[07:52] He's figuring out how to affect it when he's off the ball. [07:55] And then they're doing all these little cheat plays. Like, he'll take off sometimes on these long passes from Aiton or Luka. [08:03] If the defense is sleeping and they move up or he'll be like kind of hanging out on the side, which he did in the Rockets game. It was great. [08:10] Durant fell asleep. [08:12] LeBron snuck in and then cut hard to the basket. Luka gave him a lob. [08:16] All of a sudden, this team makes sense as you're watching it. And it makes sense because LeBron's embraced. I'm the third best guy on this team. [08:22] I'm going to have to just figure out how to affect the game. Um, [08:26] I don't know what it means, big picture. We talked about this a little on Sunday, Wednesday, [08:31] and a little bit on Tuesday on the pod. Just like the Lakers definitely look different, but what's the ceiling? [08:37] Are they the fourth best team in the West was about conversation? [08:41] But the more you watch Denver, [08:43] And... [08:44] Just, [08:45] something's off with them. [08:48] And I don't know whether it's like a mild coaching thing [08:51] Or it's, they just haven't been healthy altogether long enough for what's going on. But all these games they're losing in the last four minutes, they're like the opposite of the Lakers. They've had, [09:00] Ten horrible losses. [09:02] Which really shouldn't happen when we have Joker. [09:07] I don't know. I don't think the Lakers have a chance in hell against San Antonio or OKC. [09:13] Um, but at the same time, I went to see San Antonio on Monday night. [09:17] And, [09:18] There's the young team. [09:20] you saw it in the Phoenix game tonight. Like,

[09:23] You can play junk defenses at them, do weird things, let Wemby score, try to take out everybody else. All this stuff they're going to try to have to figure out in real time. [09:31] And Fox is the only major guy they have who can, who's actually been in real situations offensively, right? Guys like Castle. [09:42] either those guys haven't played in big games or they're just young. Dylan Harper, keep going. [09:48] Um, [09:50] And I do feel like if it was San Antonio Lakers, which it wouldn't be until round two because the Lakers are up in the three seed, it would be a fascinating youth first experience series. But just big picture with the Lakers. [10:03] I do think it's real. [10:04] I don't think they're at the level of San Antonio and OKC and maybe not even Boston with Tatum back. But... [10:10] That next tier of teams, I think in a playoff series, could they win four or seven? Could they go four and three against anybody else in the league? Yeah, maybe. Is LeBron going to stay committed to this? It sure seems like it. He seems re-energized. [10:23] Um, [10:24] And then there's... [10:25] We talked about this a few weeks ago on the pod about Luca for the point he's at in his career. Why hasn't he had more... [10:32] and high MVP finishes. I think he had a third place and a fourth place. [10:37] Look at it now with 12... [10:39] 12, 13 games to go. [10:41] And the fact that Denver has been arrow pointing sideways or arrow pointing down for a while, [10:46] three months. I mean, they've basically been a 500 team since mid-December. [10:51] There's a case now for Luca to be above him.

[10:54] and above Joker in the MVP race. [10:58] And I think if I was doing it now, [11:01] I would have SGA one, I would have Wemby two. [11:05] And I think Luca versus Joker is a real argument now. And it's funny because Joker had this historical run to start the season, the first two months. He was incredible. [11:13] Wemby's had [11:15] a really, really great two-way run. [11:18] the last couple of months. And Shea has moved into this [11:21] Jordan-Kobe game finisher level, right? So it's not like, [11:25] All three of them haven't been great candidates, but... [11:28] what Luca has done offensively and how they built this team around them. They had a chance to win like, [11:33] 54, 55 games, which is nuts. Aiton, you don't know what you're getting from him night to night. Marcus Smart is just going to go two for nine every game, two for seven, three for nine, [11:43] two for six, [11:45] Teams are just going to leave him open down the stretch. It doesn't matter. They don't really have a bench, and yet they're going to win 54-55. So Luka's doing his job, and he – [11:54] I had him... [11:56] somewhere first, second team, kind of on that bubble with a couple other guys. He's clear first team though. [12:01] I think we know who [12:03] Four of the first team guys, RFK can come back and get enough games. But to answer my own question from the beginning, I do think this Lakers thing is real. [12:11] There's a spirit to them. There's a swagger and a competitiveness that you can see when you watch it. [12:15] they seem aligned. Everybody seems to know what their role is and what they're trying to do. And I think JJ's done a really good job. So, uh, [12:23] I'm beyond monitoring it at this point. I just, I assume this is what we're going to see from them the rest of the year. Wemby is,

[12:30] on the Spurs had a really important game tonight. [12:34] I think they're 22 in their last 22. There's still a very, very stealth case for him for MVP if they can pass OKC. But they came back from a big deficit. Phoenix played really well. Phoenix has good games against... They played really well against Boston Monday night, too. They're really well coached. They're really good at making you do things you don't want to do and attacking you in unconventional ways. Today, they were... [13:02] Just throwing a junk defense at San Antonio and seeing if they could handle it. And they couldn't for most of the game. [13:08] And then near the end, they come back, make a couple plays. Phoenix missed two free throws. Then when they had the ball, last 10 seconds, they're going to win. [13:16] Made the MVP jumper to win the game. [13:19] And it was interesting watching the reaction after. Crowd's chanting MVP. They do this thing where they bang the drum. They made the playoffs for the first time in a couple years, so they made a big deal about that. The crowd's chanting MVP. They interview him after the game. His teammates are chanting MVP. He's already beloved there. [13:37] And I just thought it was kind of a moment for him. [13:40] where it was like, this is real. We are a really good team. We just beat another playoff team at home. [13:45] Our guy came through in a real way. I said on Tuesday, he's the best player I saw in person all year. I don't know if that means he's the best player in the league, but his impact on defense was [13:57] play-to-play, quarter-to-quarter is... [13:59] Similar to the impact SGA has offensively and Joker has offensively. And then you think the stuff he can do offensively,

[14:07] there's a case. [14:09] So... [14:10] just [14:11] Big, big, big picture. [14:13] Where the Celtics have been rejuvenated with Tatum and just look like they're the best team in the East, whether they can keep it going, we'll see it. [14:19] OKC going for back-to-back. And we know when they're healthy, that's going to be the team to beat. San Antonio... [14:27] As is precocious, are they the 90 bulls or the 91 bulls? We'll see. [14:31] Denver as the, I don't want to play that team, but maybe I do. [14:34] veteran team. [14:35] with one of the best players of the century. [14:40] And then... [14:41] The Lakers. [14:42] who were in that class with the Knicks and the Cavs, [14:46] as... [14:48] And now the Pistons, because we don't know what's going to happen with Cade, of like, I think that's a contender, but I want to see more. [14:54] And I can't believe the Lakers are in that class, but I think they are definitely in that second tier. [14:59] And I think the Spurs are in that first tier with OKC. And I think [15:03] I think Boston's kind of in between that first and second tier. But what we've seen with Tatum, it's been great. All right, a couple more things really quick. [15:10] The Yana situation is just super weird. Probably talk about it more with Zach on Sunday, but this has been a soap opera basically since the summer. [15:18] The trade request, not a trade request. No, I want to stay. Do I want to get traded? No, I want to commit. And just trying to read the tea leaves of this. And now it's gotten to the point where they want them to shut it down. They have a chance to get [15:30] a top eight, top nine pick, and he wants to come back as soon as he's healthy again.

[15:37] and they're starting to there's it's starting to get a little uglier [15:41] I'm watching that one. The 5-10 order in the East, Toronto, 39 wins. They're the fifth seed. [15:48] Atlanta's won 11th straight. They're somehow the eighth seed. Charlotte, who's been a top five team for two and a half months now, [15:56] at least from advanced metrics. [15:58] They're still the 10 seed. They're two games over 500. They absolutely killed Orlando tonight on Del Curry night, which was great. But the five through 10, how that shakes out, [16:08] and who you do or don't want to play. The only team you definitely want to play is Philly, because they're not going to be [16:13] they're just not going to be able to put it all together in time. I don't think in round one. [16:18] And I probably want to play Orlando and I probably want to play Miami. [16:23] Atlanta, the way they look now, I'm not sure I'd be crazy about seeing them and... [16:28] Charlotte. [16:29] I mean, you watch tonight, like Charlotte will just be up 25 in the beginning of the second quarter. I don't know what happened. So I want to see how that shakes out. [16:37] And also how that shakes out correspondingly with, [16:40] can the Celtics catch Detroit, which I don't think they can. Cade sadly got hurt. [16:45] He's got the collapse on. They have a four-game lead. [16:48] And I think with the schedule, I was staring at it, trying to figure out whether the Celtics catch them. I don't think they can. [16:54] So Celtics will be the two seed. So they'll play the best play-in team. [16:59] And Detroit will be the one seed and might end up with like Charlotte. [17:02] with Cade coming back from this major injury. So just watch that order there. [17:07] Um,

[17:08] Tatum trying to get back [17:11] Where he was as a basketball player in real time, game to game, [17:16] as a Celtics fan, has been one of the most compelling things I've seen in a long time. [17:22] There's game Monday night. [17:24] They're playing Phoenix and it was a classic Phoenix game, right? They're up most of the game. It actually felt a couple of times like Phoenix was going to win. [17:30] And Jalen was just incredible. [17:33] And. [17:34] At some point, it was just clear, like, Jalen's going to have to be the alpha tonight. And Tatum was over on the side, like he was Sam Hauser. [17:40] And everything was running through Jalen at the top of the key one-on-one stuff or they're sending picks for him. [17:45] and Tatum was an accessory. [17:47] And that's the way it should have been. And it's not a big deal. I'm not saying like, no, it's Brown's team, anything like that. It was just interesting to see him. [17:55] settle into that for a game. And it made me think like, [18:00] I don't know, like in the Golden State game, Tatum was better, but... [18:04] I don't know if it's fair to even ask him to be the guy who could be the alpha in situations like that. And the Celtics already have a guy who's been one of the best alphas in the league this year. [18:13] And maybe that's just going to be the setup, but you can see when [18:16] One guy's going for it. Then the other guy takes over for two minutes. The ceiling of this team, when you combine it with the bench and all the role players and stuff, is... [18:24] Really, really, really high. So watching him get it back in real time... [18:30] has been a delight. I'm so happy to just see him playing basketball again. OKC at Celtics, March 25th, next Wednesday. [18:37] That's the game. [18:38] Because what we haven't seen yet is somebody just throw the kitchen sink at this guy.

[18:43] and really try to be physical with them and take them out. [18:46] Take them out and [18:47] maybe even throw a little semi cheap shots. Okay. So use your team for all that stuff. So, uh, [18:53] I wanted to mention that. The worst four in the lottery... [18:57] So there's five teams right now. Indiana has 15 wins. Washington, 15. Brooklyn, 17. Sacramento, 18. Utah, 20. [19:03] You really want to be in the top three. It's 14%. Plus, if somebody jumps you, you stay in the top four. It's a four-player draft with a drop-off. So just how that all shakes out and what kind of tanking we're going to get into as we go down the line, I think is going to be – [19:17] Pretty compelling, leading us to... [19:20] to the two... [19:22] the two big topics that people have been, uh, [19:25] been going nuts about this week. One is the All-NBA MVP minimum game number. [19:30] which kicked in again with Cade, who I think is at 60. Even though he's played 61, I think he only counts for 60. [19:38] So he'd have to play five more games to be eligible for all NBA. I'm a voter. [19:43] I think it would be absurd. [19:45] It was like legitimately absurd. [19:48] To have this season finish it, [19:50] Mark down all the All-NBA teams for posterity. [19:53] Mark down the MVP voting and Cade's just not involved. It's like he didn't exist in the season. It's absurd. [20:00] Because we're three-fourths of the way through the year. They're the one seed. [20:03] They've completely overachieved for what their talent is. [20:06] And he is the number one, number two, and number three reasons that's happening. [20:10] And he's not going to make All-NBA now because he got a legitimate injury.

[20:15] I tweeted today, if Silver just said, we've dropped it from 65 to 62, I don't think anybody would complain. [20:23] Really what they should have done, it should have been 62 games or 2,000 plus minutes. [20:28] 2,000 plus minutes is a lot. [20:30] Like Maxie. Maxie's at 61 now. Let's say he doesn't come back with his hurt finger. Maxie right now, [20:36] is third in the league in total minutes. [20:39] but he didn't play enough to qualify to make an on-bay team. Like, that's... [20:44] This is just stupid. We did this wrong. We overreacted. I wish I had made a bigger stink out of it. So you almost have to see it play out. [20:51] with some examples before you know how stupid it is. 2,000 plus minutes, 62 games, [20:57] Seems totally fair to me. [20:59] And really, if you go back and you look at the NBA and the MVP stuff, the only really egregious one... [21:05] was the year after COVID when Embiid, I think he missed 21 points. [21:10] Played like 51 games, missed 21. It was a 72-game season. [21:14] And he was playing 30 minutes a game. [21:16] And I think, [21:17] I think he played like 1,500 minutes, something like that. He finished second MVP. [21:22] And I think he was 122nd in minutes played. [21:26] That's where maybe it gets a little... [21:28] It's like, all right, maybe that shouldn't be eligible. Now, it was post-COVID. It was a weird season, but... [21:35] 2,000 plus minutes, 62 plus games, one or the other, preferably both, and you should be eligible. I just don't like this. We're going to have a snapshot of this season, and it's not going to capture the season.

[21:47] Booker is very close to being out. Kawhi is almost definitely going to be out now. Max is going to be out. And we're going to end up with, [21:54] at least two really goofy third-team All-MBA players. [21:59] We'll see what happens, but I'll be complaining. Get ready for me to complain about this a few times. [22:05] All right, last thing, it's tied together. [22:07] Charlotte had Del Curry night tonight. [22:10] And, [22:12] It was really cool. Steph and Seth were there. The family was there. It was great to see the Currys. He's beloved in Charlotte. He was the first guy I think they drafted, [22:20] he... [22:22] He has been announcing games there forever. It's just the Currys of royalty in Charlotte. [22:27] And the bigger thing to me just watching it, [22:31] That franchise has had a complete facelift over the last couple of years, which we've talked about a couple of times. They drafted well. They changed owners. They got rid of Michael Jordan. And they hired a really good coach. They have an identity. They even have LaMelo Ball really engaged. He was great tonight. [22:48] So it can be done, is my point. [22:51] Because as we go to the last thing I wanted to quickly talk about here, because expansion and all that stuff broke. [22:57] on Monday. [22:59] And it broke in a way that made me a little suspicious, almost like it was being leaked that this is going to be a possibility because they don't know whether they have the 23 votes yet or not. [23:09] They were talking about between $7 or $10 billion per team. [23:13] So let's go low just for fun and we'll say $7.5 billion per team. That's 15 billion total. And I've been talking about this for five years. So I...

[23:22] I have podcasts from 21 and 22 where I was telling you guys that Seattle and Vegas were going to be the expansion teams. [23:28] So if it's 7.5 billion per team, [23:31] That's $500 million. [23:33] cash that would go to each of the 30 teams. They do not have to share with the players. And that's why they want to do expansion, or at least some of the teams do. [23:41] Because it's just, [23:42] just pure flat out greed. They didn't make enough money from the media deal, obviously, which is 7.6 million. Now they have a chance to make another 500 million. [23:50] And, you know, [23:52] I've had people say to me like, "Hey, Simmons." [23:56] I thought you're the one saying how deep the league is. Why wouldn't you want expansion? [24:01] Um, here's why I don't want expansion because we have nine teams that don't give a shit at any right now in a 30 team league. [24:07] The last thing we need to do is add two more teams that don't give a shit. [24:11] Um, [24:11] They either... [24:13] need to fix... [24:15] He don't give a shit part about the 82 game season. [24:18] Or they need to relocate two teams and do that as an expansion. I cannot accept... [24:23] as somebody who loves basketball, I cannot accept adding to expansion teams, [24:29] And having 11 tanking teams three seasons from now instead of nine. [24:34] I just don't see how that's a good product. I don't see how that helps anybody. [24:38] And the bottom line is there's eight to 10 guys who truly matter. Those are the teams that have a chance to win the title. And everybody else is either treading water, overachieving, or tanking. We don't need more of that. Football has figured it out because football, you have the quarterbacks are really the only stability for the seven, eight best teams. Other than that, you have the salary cap, which is prohibitive. You have the schedule and the stuff they can do with the Patriots this year at a fourth place schedule.

[25:08] really hard. [25:09] They can keep tilting the seesaw. [25:11] against teams. You can't do it in the NBA. [25:14] So to add two teams, I've just seen, I'm old enough now to remember when this happened a few times over the course of the week, [25:21] And it always screws up. It always leads to haves and have-nots in a really crazy way. [25:26] And... [25:28] I would accept it. [25:30] If they put in the right tanking rules, which they're claiming they do, I want to know what those are first before you do expansion. The other thing is, [25:39] Couldn't we just relocate a couple of teams that aren't doing that well? I don't want to call teams out, franchises out that are doing terrible in revenue. [25:47] that clearly have been struggling with bad ownership in the places they've been in. [25:52] like a New Orleans fan. [25:53] Right? [25:54] Like Memphis, Draymond Green called out this week because basically saying they don't even have like a hotel for the players to stay in. They've been small market. They just gutted their team again. [26:03] Um, [26:05] And yet, [26:06] The Charlotte piece of this is why you can't say like, well, basketball can't work there. Because I would have said that about Charlotte three years ago. [26:14] So, [26:15] to me, how do you get [26:18] a team like New Orleans to be confident again and properly owned and not a place where [26:24] Everyone in the league, whether you're a player, an agent, anybody, knows that that's one of the worst situations in terms of taking care of the health of players. [26:35] injuries, all the injury maintenance, all that stuff, like facilities, like,

[26:39] Everybody knows about New Orleans. [26:41] Right? [26:42] Memphis is another one that maybe from a revenue standpoint, small market, [26:48] They're okay owned, but is a team that, [26:52] If we were just doing this, let's pick 30 cities that should have an NBA team. [26:58] Seattle would be picked over both of those teams. Let's just call it for what it is. [27:03] So you really have to make the case for me that those teams can succeed. [27:07] before I'm ready to add other teams. [27:10] Um, [27:10] And here's the other thing with Vegas. [27:12] Why is Vegas a good idea? [27:14] Vegas already has four professional teams. Vegas isn't that big of a city. [27:18] Vegas, young people don't party and drink and gamble the way they used to. Every story I read is about how Vegas, from a tourism standpoint, [27:28] it's getting a little dicey. They might have overbuilt it a little bit. Why is this like [27:34] A surefire bet for expansion. Seattle, 100%. [27:37] I've been saying Seattle should have a team for 20 years, ever since they stole the team away. [27:42] Vegas, I'm not sure. Like, A, do we need 32 teams? And B, if we're adding two teams, should Vegas be one of the teams? I still have real questions about this. [27:51] And should we just relocate [27:53] or relocate, I don't know why I'm emphasizing the re, she would just relocate, [27:58] the franchise that would immediately triple in value or double in value the moment it moved to Seattle. So my question is, why couldn't you... [28:06] at least explore that side with one of the franchises before you talked about

[28:11] Um, [28:12] Just adding two other teams. [28:14] I don't get it. [28:17] I really want to know more. So this vote's coming next week. [28:20] I'm not convinced they have the 23 votes. [28:23] But, [28:24] If they do this, it's a money grab. [28:27] And they can say, it's like more jobs for everybody. Okay, cool. This is a money grab. This is going to make the league worse. [28:33] I will plant my flag in that. [28:34] Because we are just going to have [28:37] More teens doing all the same shit. [28:39] that we hate now, this tanking stuff. So the only way you could do expansion is if it's tied together with some real roles to make these teams actually care about competing and not being an embarrassment. Like the freaking Nets the other night down 60 to 24 at halftime. Like the Wizards give you up 83 to bam out of bio. Like nobody wants to see this anymore. So we don't need two more teams doing this. [29:02] So this is a bigger... [29:04] decision that they have to make, they have to decide [29:08] What are the 30 best cities for the NBA? Do we have 30 cities that can handle the NBA at the highest level? And if we do... [29:15] Maybe we can expand, but now we have to bring in all this tanking stuff to make it possible to expand from a position of strength. [29:21] And not a money grab. [29:24] So that's my take on expansion. We're going to take a break. We're going to come back. Billy Gale is going to join us to talk about a world baseball classic. And then Wesley Morris and I are going to talk movies. That's next. [29:34] This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. [29:37] What makes basketball so exciting? [29:40] all the superior skill on the court. This has been the case my whole life.

[29:44] The craziest thing, I mean, Wemby, stuff he's doing every game, there's two things. [29:49] three Wemby moments a game where you're like, I don't know if I've ever seen that. [29:52] The number one thing for me is when he does the screen and roll, he's going to the basket. Somebody throws him an alley-oop, and he just catches it and dunks it without jumping. It's an alley-oop, but it's not an oop. It's just kind of an alley-oop. [30:05] And every time he does it, I'm like, I've, [30:07] Definitely 100% never seen that anymore. It's a superior play. Superior plays aren't just for the NBA, though. Try Michelob Ultra. [30:13] the official beer partner. [30:15] of the NBA. [30:17] And, and, [30:18] A crisp, refreshing, superior light beer. It's the beer of Max Kellerman. He just told me that. Plus, they're giving you a chance to win courtside seats, custom merch, and more. Michelob Ultra, superior, is worth playing for. Enter now at MichelobUltra.com. [30:32] slash [30:33] Fourth side. [30:34] Michelob Ultra Quartzide 2526, no purchase necessary, open to US Residents 21+. [30:39] Begins on October 1st, 2025, ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at makelobaltra.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. [30:53] All right, the Duke Billy Gill is here, one of our big WBC fans. [30:57] here at the ringer. I got into it. I enjoyed it. I don't really know the protocol, though, of rooting for your country versus rooting for players on your favorite team. And I was battling the whole time because I was rooting for different Red Sox guys to do well while also rooting for America. But then I was really happy for Venezuela. It was about the least patriotic I felt in a while. So you went to some of these games. What was it like? It was incredible. So I've gone in past

[31:27] Went there as an official representative of the ringer. So I was there going on the field, taking pictures of people, making a presence known so that the baseball community knows we're in the game. We're here to cover this sport. The environment is crazy. It's great, but it's sad because the environment in that stadium is not like that for the next four years. And it won't be like that at any Marlins games this year, which is disappointing. But, man, Miami can host a World Baseball Classic. I have a question for you. Wait, can you hold that thought? [31:57] question to me? [31:58] - Yeah. - Is it weird to go to a place that has just a certain set, pretty depressing level of energy? [32:06] And then all of a sudden you go there and it's fucking awesome. And you're like, I'm in the same place where it's basically sucks. [32:13] I'm not used to it being that great because since they built the stadium, the Marlins have made the playoffs twice but have not hosted a home playoff game because one was the weird COVID year where they were on the road and then they switched it to like three years ago, I think, or two years ago, they made it. But it's that first round, that wildcard round where like the host city hosts all the games and it's like best of three so don't travel. So there's never been a playoff game there. But because of the roof, it gets really loud and it's a great environment. But I'm also one that, [32:42] I've become accustomed to smaller crowds. I've become accustomed to the row in front of me will be empty. I can kick my feet up. So it's kind of like when it's too crowded, that's nice, but I'm ready to get back to my comfort. I have plenty of space. I don't have to wait that long in concessions. I'm good not having a ton of people around me. So I like the energy, but I'm

[33:06] I got my fill. We're good with that energy for a little bit, I think. It felt festive. What was your question for me? It was great. There was live bands going around. I don't know how it is that like, you have to go through security with a clear like bag, like in every stadium policy, right? But somehow you can go in with a trombone and you can go in with like a massive drum and you can take in all of these instruments that seemingly could be dangerous weapons. But like [33:36] a no-go. I don't understand that security works. So here's my question to you. [33:40] Am I... [33:42] It's similar to what you were saying. [33:43] "Am I a bad American?" [33:46] Because going into the championship game, I was actively rooting for, [33:51] for my country to lose to Venezuela. [33:55] So I bet on the Dominican and the semi, the Dominican and the semifinals against the U.S. Cause I've always, I've always enjoyed the baseball players. They've been very good at the Red Sox and I didn't really. [34:07] I didn't really feel that patriotic about it in general. [34:10] Um, [34:11] In the finals, I was like, I'm going to root for America in this one. Yeah. I want Roman Anthony to do well. I was really excited he did well in the previous game. [34:21] But as it went along and it was so clear that it meant like 100 times more to Venezuela, it was hard not to be like, all right, I'm happy for these guys. This is like the greatest sports moment of their lives. It would have meant even like one-tenth as much to America. No. No, that's why, honestly, coming into the game, so I was like walking around, I was asking people like, oh, who are you rooting for? I'm like, yeah, I want America to win. And last time in the World Baseball Classic 2023, America also made it to the final and

[34:51] situation where Shohei Otani is pitching against Mike Trout. He strikes him out. They end up winning the championship. And it means so much to Japan. I wanted America to win that one. This one, America just had not the best attitude throughout the tournament where you had Scooble coming and going. And then he kind of started feeling it. And then in the semifinal game where they were playing the Dominican Republic, he drove back from spring training. He pitched the day before in a meaningless spring training [35:21] that day because he wants to be with the team and there's like this whole article written about how he drove through a rainstorm to get there which is like i'm not applauding this like welcome to florida it rains all the time like this wasn't a hurricane like what are we talking about here but we wanted to applaud him because all of a sudden it seems like between the semi-final and the final america kind of figured out like hey this is fun we should try to want to win this instead of you know saying the wrong thing every possible chance they got including bryce who like [35:51] very gracious and he was shaking the hands of Venezuela and all that. But earlier in the tournament, they asked him about it. And he's like, I, you know, I'd rather win the Olympics than the world baseball classics like buddy. [36:00] Yeah, just keep that one to yourself. Just don't say that. And then there's all the players from all the different countries who are all excited and they're saying, even Quique Hernandez, who was playing for Puerto Rico, has been to five World Series. He's won three. And he's saying winning the World Baseball Classic would be more important, which then caught the ire of Derek Jeter, who on the broadcast, they say, what do you make of all these players that say they'd rather win the World Baseball Classic than the World Series? And he's like, sounds like players that have never made the World Series. It's like, there's

[36:30] there's plenty who have who are saying this but also like derek [36:35] You're on the broadcast for the World Baseball Classic. Can we pretend to care just a little bit about this? Or also, you don't add anything to any of these broadcasts. Just sit out the World Baseball Classic, Derek. We're not going to miss you. It's going to be perfectly fine. So the Americans had kind of like not the greatest attitude throughout it. You had the situation with Cal Raleigh and Randy Rosarena, where he didn't want to shake his hand. And then Josh Naylor, who plays for Canada, decided, I want to troll Cal Raleigh and go to try to shake his hand. [37:05] Then he also didn't shake his hand and the Mariners seem to be falling apart. There was no injuries or serious injuries in this world baseball classic. Yeah. The Mariners, I don't think are going to survive the world baseball classic, even getting all of their, their team back healthy because they all seem to hate each other now, even though they'll downplay the situation. Because they had great chemistry last year. The WBC could have just completely eroded it. Yeah. I mean, Randy Rosarana told Cal Raleigh to like shove his handshake comment like up his ass, which is kind of like, this is going to be awkward. [37:35] is going to have to kind of sort that situation out. So I didn't think that a team was going to fall apart that wasn't playing in the World Baseball Classic, but we have to keep an eye on the Mariners now and see what's going on. But overall, I thought, great tournament. Here's another thing, by the way, Mark DeRosa might be the worst manager, I think, in the history of baseball. Just bring in Miller for the 9-2-2. [37:56] What are you doing? He throws one or two. Nobody's touching him. Just get an inning out of him. What are we doing? Did you see they were asking him about it after the game? So in the press conference after game,

[38:07] they were asking him, like, why didn't you bring him in? And he's like, well, I told, you know, I wanted to respect the Padres. It's like, respect the Padres? Did you see what was happening with Venezuela? Their manager... [38:17] Omar Lopez had three different teams call him and say, hey, you played a semifinal game last night. [38:24] do not pitch our pitchers back to back nice. Yeah. And he said, you know what? I'm going to pitch four pitchers back to back nice and you guys can deal with it because that's exactly what he did. Like four guys that pitched the night before. The Vinnisbergs were fine with it. They did it to, they did it to Whitlock and on the American team where he pitched three, three times in five days. Yeah. And his last appearance in the finals, he gave up the winning run. [38:47] his [38:49] His miles per hour was a little bit down. Big topic with Red Sox fans right now. Just ready for Whitlock to be on the DL in June because he pitched three in five days. So back to back, I don't even know. [39:01] Whitlock's a guy on the Red Sox, not to make this too MLB-centric, that I have wanted to work out for your team for the past five years. He was really good last year. Yeah, he was really good last year. But he was going to be a starter, and then they eventually moved him and figured him out. He's a reliever. Yeah, it's not as useful to me. I liked it when he was a fit starter. Yeah, no, he's a reliever. Going back to the team thing. [39:24] This is one of my issues... [39:26] rooting for America or being in the mindset of, I should root for America. This is the country I live in. First of all, the World Baseball Classic has not been around since like, [39:35] 1892. This is a relatively new thing, so it can't be like, "We have to root for our teams."

[39:40] I think you can kind of go where the heart wants, especially in the gambling era. [39:44] But I was watching the Dominicans and the Venezuelans, how they're just reacting to [39:50] a double in the third inning. [39:52] And they're just going crazy. They're so demonstrative. Ever been to dugouts flipping out? [39:57] And our team... [39:59] was basically like, okay, guys, we got them. Let's do it. I was embarrassed. It felt so forced. And even Bryce Harper, when he hit the game-tying home run in the bottom of the eighth, when he's coming around, he did a salute, and he's pointing at the flag. I don't know why it felt forced, and it almost felt like angry patriotism. But then you see the Dominicans and the Venezuelans are playing against each other. They're hugging each other at home plate, and it's competitive, but they're enjoying it where the Americans seemed like [40:29] Thank you. [40:29] forced. How about the Brake Homer? They weren't even at home plate. They were kind of over on the side like, all right, we'll go greet them. [40:37] Yeah. It was weird. The Roman Anthony. Roman Anthony is my guy, obviously. He's Red Sox, and he has the big go-ahead homer in the game before. [40:44] And it wasn't like if it happened for the Dominicans or the Venezuelans, it would have been like a borderline. [40:49] They would have lost their minds for five minutes. I don't know. It bummed me out. The American bat flips felt forced to me, too. It was like, well, I see how high the Venezuelans are throwing it. Let me try to throw it higher. [41:03] I think overall... [41:04] Great tournament. Have you turned on this whatsoever? Are you in on this? No, you know what's interesting? First of all, weigh in, enjoyed it way more than I thought.

[41:13] the ratings were really good. And I'm not a ratings guy because I don't understand how the ratings just get better for everything every year. [41:20] It's like ESPN every month. It's like highest blank ever. And just it feels like you can finagle it however you want. [41:27] But anecdotally, people cared about this. People in my life cared about this. Everybody that likes sports that I know, [41:33] Feels like they were at least monitoring it. And then the last two USA games, I feel like, [41:39] A lot of people in my life watched, they cared. My dad really cared. He was really upset that Anthony made the last out. He was like, I hope... [41:46] I hope that's not going to be bad for him for this season. I was like, he'll be fine, Dad. Yeah. He'll be playing in like two weeks in real games. You know what I really loved the most was how you vacillate emotions with, [41:56] I was mostly rooting for America, but when Judge made an out after Harper tied the game, [42:01] And you could be like, all right, Judge, let's go air and finish it off. Like part of me was like, I hope he makes it out. Yeah. I hope it becomes the story. You want your enemies to fail. Like it's so weird. Because like I don't like Ronald Acuna Jr. Because I'm a Marlins fan and he's a Brave. And I find him to be very annoying. But I felt good for him. And they're crying on the field the whole time. You mentioned the Red Sox. Did you see the stat where the Red Sox outfield?

[42:31] who hit the most home runs throughout the tournament. And it's listed like the Dominican Republic hit like 15 home runs or whatever, 12, 11, whatever it was. And then they had like the U.S. I think had like 11 or 12. And then just Boston Red Sox outfielders, 10 home runs in the World Baseball Classic. You guys? Our over-under is 86.5 for Wentz. And I think the Red Sox are going to be legit good. I think they're plus 300 on Fandle for the division. [43:01] kind of loaded. [43:03] And as long as they don't have any pitcher injuries or anything weird like that. But Anthony is the big thing. I mean, that was why his... [43:10] His homer that he hit, the go-ahead homer, I was really glad he had that moment because we're kind of counting on him to have the Drake May major jump in year two and Abreu two. I thought it was a good showing for them. It's weird to root for the guys on different teams that are your guys and kind of monitoring them. You end up like, [43:28] It's like a parent with multiple kids on different fields that, [43:32] you know, some, some, uh, new sports tournament. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [43:36] Um, one other thing with the world baseball that I, that I, uh, [43:40] I really liked it. [43:42] Um, [43:43] How it's going to transfer, all the stories now about how it transfers to, [43:47] to the actual season becomes like its own cottage industry for media coverage. Because we have fantasy baseball coming, we have the season starting, we have the season starting, [43:56] and just how it swings your opinions, [44:00] either high or low, I think is kind of entertaining.

[44:04] I think in 2017, myself and probably everyone else that was watching the World Baseball Classic when the U.S. won was like, [44:12] Marcus Stroman might be the greatest pitcher in the history of Major League Baseball. I need to draft him in the first round. Yeah, like I need to draft him right away. And then he has like a classic like Stroman situation where he's like really good one year. And then he's like not great the year that you draft him in fantasy. But yeah, people are definitely going to be drafting and overdrafting certain players based on World Baseball Classic performance. I like. Abreu is going to be one of them. [44:37] Oh, yeah, for sure. So you mentioned the ratings. Almost 11 million people watched the championship game, which is crazy. I think it was up from like 7 million or something, the previous championship game. It was the most watched World Baseball Classic game ever. [44:50] baseball's riding this high coming off of the world series and coming off of the world baseball classic and i'm a little bit worried that once the regular season starts and everybody goes back to their teams and you lose the excitement that the world baseball classic games had that people are like oh like yeah we're back we're back to baseball now because you don't have like the playoff intensity you don't have the world baseball classic intensity and now it's like okay this [45:20] playing trumpets and bat flipping and jumping over the dugout fence every time someone hits a home run. Now we need to get back to like [45:28] baseball decorum. [45:31] You know, I see the point. [45:33] I just think we're so loaded from a season standpoint with good teams in huge cities with real baseball tradition.

[45:42] players I care about in both leagues, young guys coming up. [45:46] Even like we mentioned Anthony, but there's a bunch of either rookies or second year guys that people are like super excited about just watching like what's happening with the baseball cards. The like you mentioned last time, the Pittsburgh, the 19 year old, the rookie shortstop, whether he. [46:01] Who knows when he'll come up? Will he be like a May 1st guy? Will he come up at all? I don't know. But his card was like exploding during the year. And it just feels like they have a lot of... [46:11] A lot of guys. [46:12] I hope they don't do the games with the rookies where they wait until... No, they're all doing it. The Red Sox are going to do it with the two pitchers we have. I hate that. I hate it. It's one of the worst rules that we have in sports. The extra arbitration year. Yeah, it's terrible. It's so dumb. It's terrible. But the Dodgers going for a three-peat. [46:30] It's a real thing. Like, judge... [46:33] who's now hitting his mid-30s, you know, and somehow became embattled coming out of this World Baseball Classic. I saw Mad Dog did a whole thing about it on ESPN that I enjoyed. Like, he's... [46:44] He's a real figure that people have opinions. My whole thing is baseball needed to get back to... [46:50] People in your life just having arguments [46:52] about different baseball things. [46:54] And I felt like we started to lose that a little bit as the sport became more and more stats and [47:00] more and more random, basically. And now it feels like, [47:03] He talked to people like, are the Dodgers ruining baseball? And half the people in my life would have a real opinion on it. [47:08] Do you think Aaron judged? Is it his fault? [47:11] People have opinions on this. What about Roman Anthony? Could he be the next guy for Boston?

[47:15] There's like 30 of these now. Who's the best pitcher in the American League? [47:19] We just have good arguments again. And I don't. [47:21] I feel blessed right as we head into a massive labor strike. Well, I mean, that's the thing. Baseball can't get out of their own way, right? Because they're riding this momentum and they're going to mess this up at the end of the year by having a lockout. Like 100% they're going to lock out. And it's like, why are you guys doing this? Like, why are we trying to ruin a good thing? Just kind of agree to something. Figure it out. Realize that you can't afford. I mean, they're not going to miss any time, even if they have a lockout. [47:51] games. If they missed games, it'd be the dumbest thing they could possibly do. Did you see the revenue thing where it was talking about the percentage... [47:59] that the leagues make and they were like 21%, 21%, 20%. And then baseball was like 2.4%. [48:06] Because so much of the revenue is being driven by [48:09] a couple of these teams, so much of the salaries, everything, and clearly something's going to shift. But on the other hand... [48:16] As a TV sport, we were all worried about it. Now that I have all the RSNs, as that all shakes out, [48:23] But it seems like from a right standpoint, they're going to be good. I like the fact that Netflix got involved with the World Baseball Classic and these different [48:30] non-traditional networks are trying to figure out ways to kind of grab a bite of the apple from them so that's a good thing it seems like a lot of people want baseball i was a little bit worried last year and like i'm not one that gets like into the tv right situation or cares that much like i'll figure out where to watch the games but when it was announced that they were gonna leave espn i was like oh this isn't good like right the end of sunday night baseball like what's gonna happen here and then like because i'm a weird guy and i like grew up watching espn worked at espn a

[49:00] know the personalities, I'm like, [49:02] what's going to happen to Tim Kirchner? I'm worried about this. Where's Kirchner going to go? I don't want to see him on the MLB network. My heart can't take that. [49:13] ESPN is going to have, I think, weekday games now, but then everyone's going to have games. There's going to be games on Apple. There's going to be games on Netflix. This is what we do now. It's almost like a game show, trying to figure out who has what games. [49:27] But I think part of that is good, though, because... [49:30] In theory, [49:31] each of the networks will be trying to make their one day a week, the most relevant game. So hopefully then we'll get good presentations and good broadcasts from all of the networks. And it's not just kind of like mailing it in. Hey, here's like a random Wednesday night baseball game, but we also have Sunday night and Tuesday night or whatever. So like we could just throw a fourth team on here and who cares what it actually looks like. I'm excited about baseball. I am too. We've seen this happen in NBA this year with, uh, [50:00] You know, like NBC's doing that Sunday night game, right, with Tariqo. They're making it almost like trying to give it. They feel big. Yeah, they're trying to give it the NFL Sunday treatment for NBA, and it feels like a bigger game. Like, it feels like they care more. [50:12] They're sending everybody there is at the game, like the studio shows there. [50:17] Tirico's doing it. [50:18] They have the John Tesh stuff, and it just feels... [50:22] bigger. [50:22] which I think what some of these places will do with baseball. I was just looking at the World Series stuff on FanDuel. [50:28] The top eight teams for odds right now, [50:30] Dodgers, Yankees, Mariners, Mets, Phillies, Red Sox, Blue Jays, Cubs.

[50:36] And then the ninth one is Atlanta. These are all like... [50:39] Big teams that have tradition and like big fan bases and really good players. [50:44] Right. [50:45] Seattle is probably the one like non giant fan base. [50:48] But they have J-Rod... [50:51] Cal rally, [50:52] I really like Naylor. [50:55] I love Naylor. It's a fun team. And even Toronto, which I think is going to be a little different this year because they lost a couple guys. They've had some injuries already. But they were in the World Series last year. People know who they are. People know who Guerrero is. [51:09] So I think we're in a good spot, Billy. Baseball might be back. Who knows? The ringer might have to figure out some sort of podcast thing. [51:16] Wow. I don't know. 11 million people for the World Baseball Classic. It makes you think like shit. [51:23] There's a market out there. Maybe people care again. [51:27] Maybe they care. All right. Billy Gill, how are you feeling about, you never gave your opinion on BAMS83. [51:33] on this podcast. So go quick. [51:35] Okay, so BAM's 83. I was in Sweden when it was going on. So it was 3 a.m., but my phone starts blowing up because I'm in group text and they're like, BAM has 72 points right now. So it's like 3 or 4 a.m. and I'm like, I wake up to these and I'm like, well, I can't go back to sleep. So I'm trying to sign into my FanDuel Sports Network Florida subscription that I have. Of course, because I'm in a different country. It's like the country code, this doesn't allow it. So I'm doing

[52:05] oh the mid 90s yeah like the the 976 lines so much so i'm watching like the ball move like low graphic up and down the court and i'm like man they keep fouling like this is kind of crazy what's going on here i saw that you were kind of a defender of bam's i'm a bold defender yeah yeah where a lot of people a lot of people weren't like yes stop him i'm surprised that that eric's bolstra [52:30] did it because it seems like with their whole heat culture stuff, like, oh, this seems beneath the heat to try to do something like this. But I loved it. I mean, obviously, I'm biased here because I'm from down here in South Florida, but [52:41] I love the fact that they did it. I was thinking that they might do the thing where they take him out and like, oh, we can't pass Kobe. They're like, no, let's do that guy. We're going to pass Kobe. No, it was cool. I think it helped that he was such a liked guy. [52:56] He's so not that kind of player who would chase stats. Everybody was supportive of that. It seemed like the most fun random game to go to. It was real joy in the stands. He got to 75. They're cutting... [53:09] Like, you know, Miami can kind of come and go as a basketball crowd. People were like deliriously happy as this was happening. It was really fun to watch. Well, the Wizards are a crap team, too. That's the thing. Like, stop him. Like, you guys can play defense. You can like, why don't you double him? Why don't you take the ball out of his hands? Especially in the first quarter. The Heat had like no starters out there except for BAMP. [53:31] It's like, just take him out. Let everybody else be. It was a disgrace. And this was my big case was like,

[53:38] The Wizards, like, [53:40] We have eight teams tanking. Now we have nine because Milwaukee's trying to tank. So it's almost one-third of the league. [53:47] That's a way more of a disgrace to me than Miami being like, Bam Adebayo is a great guy. It's having the night of his life. Let's see how many points he can get. I'm never going to be offended by that. [53:56] I didn't like that so many players and coaches came out and Swaggy P, former players, and they're just like, I don't respect this at all. It's like, shut up. No one cares what you think. Why do you have to ruin this? Why do you have to ruin a fun thing here? It is weird, though. If you look at the all-time list, then just bam, out of bio is number two on the list. Not that he's not an all-time great of all time, but he's not an all-time great. I've heard people say that, and if you go to every sport, [54:24] There's fucking weird things in there. There's people that have had like, you know, four Homer, four Homer games in baseball. They're like, that guy had four Homers? Yeah. And in football, same thing where like, uh, [54:36] Remember Flipper Anderson had the receiver record for Everton? [54:40] that receiver on the Rams was like 330 yards receiving or whatever it was. It's never who you think is going to have these records. I think there was some Kobe stuff with it too. I think people just love Kobe and they kind of want, they liked how it was wilt. [54:55] Ben Kobe and now Bam's in the middle of it and he's not a scorer. But I mean, everybody loves Bam. [55:01] And it was the night of his life. He had never had 42 points in a game. [55:05] So I don't know if, if you like sports, it's weird that you wouldn't like that one to me. But anyway, all right, Billy Gill.

[55:11] Good luck. Did you do your fantasy baseball draft yet? My fantasy baseball draft is next Tuesday. Keepers are in though. So that has been locked and we're moving forward now. We have to turn in keepers tomorrow night. [55:24] Me and my buddy, Hans, who's my... [55:27] League of Dorks partner, my AL Keeper League. And I can't even tell you the Google history. [55:33] Just searching... [55:34] Any sort of info I can find on Joe Boyle of Tampa, [55:38] Or Eric Lauer on the Blue Jays deciding whether we want to keep him for $3.00. [55:43] Do we keep Narvaez at seven? Just Googling all his spring... It's pathetic. It's such a waste of time. How many keepers do you get to have? We have 10. So we have nine keepers. Now we're battling for... [55:56] who should be the 10th, and it's just a colossal waste of time. I love it. You can keep like half your team? Well, we have a 40-man roster. 40-man roster? Including minors and reserves, yeah. That's insane. I got to bail you the thing. You won't believe it. And it's only one league. It's only AL. It's ALO, yeah. So you're just full of like random crap players. This is why we're talking about whether we want to protect Eric Lauer for $3. Oh, my God. That is deep. [56:25] One of, so we don't, we don't do auction. We do like the rounds still. So ours is you can keep four, but it's four. You can only do it two times. So like you can only keep them twice and it's four rounds higher than you drafted him the previous year. So I went in and I spent, and Stanton got dropped last year when he was injured. So he was just out there. So I picked him up on a flyer, just put him on my IL and I was like, I'll play him when he comes back.

[56:55] so I was like I'm using this for a future situation so I had Giancarlo Stanton but then the reports are he can't open a bag of chips which seems impossible and I'm looking at him like well he has three home runs or four home runs already in the spring so I guess the chip situation has been resolved he didn't play in the world baseball classic I could get him in the 20th round and [57:17] But also, I know he's just going to injure himself because that's what he does every year. So am I going to waste one of my keepers on him? I ended up not doing it. So we'll see what happens with that. The move is always if the evidence is you're going to really regret this a month from now and be kicking yourself, maybe don't do it. I'm always stunned by the lack of information. [57:35] In this world we live in now where information is everywhere. Like Twitter, you can't search for anything on Twitter anymore. [57:42] If I want to find out Joe Boyle, Tampa, give me the last five days of tweets about him. Fucking pizza comes up. [57:50] read at [57:52] Not nearly. Nobody's starting like a Joe Boyle thread, right? Are you expecting that? No, I'm not. So then you're Googling news stories and it's like, oh, Joe Boyle's in that one. And it's like just this tiny little tidbit paragraph. Just not a lot of info. They don't care about like the diehards. We need a return to like the true honest to goodness beat writers in baseball that are there in spring. They leave their family for a month and a half. They live in like Lakeland, Florida,

[58:22] giving us all the information on everyone. Now it's just like... Just a lot of dispatches three times a day, different things about different players. Yeah. We don't have that anymore. Now you just go, they're hanging out, making contacts or whatever it is that reporters are doing there. If they're even attending the games, the managers don't even bother giving you actual honest assessments of what's going on with the players. It's become a travesty that's going on in journalism these days, Bill. Well, fortunately, we have websites that can show us the miles per hour. [58:48] compared to last year and stuff like that. Not that I've ever been to those. Maybe I have. Are you excited about ABS's debut? We didn't have it in the World Baseball Classic. We didn't talk about that huge controversy at the end of the U.S. Dominican Republic game where it was clearly a ball. Game ends like that. Dominicans are eliminated. Not going to happen. Half a foot. Same thing happened the inning before against Soto. It was just a bad strike zone. And American umpire. So somewhat suspicious there. I don't know if he's on the take or what's going on. [59:18] It was a little weird. [59:19] All right, Billy Gill. You can listen slash watch to Billy on the... [59:24] on the ringer tailgate a great show that is continuing to go during the uh off season as well as you pop on ringer nfl [59:30] from time to time and all over the place. Good to see you. Thanks for staying up with me. Hey, thanks for having me. [59:36] This segment is brought to you by the all-new Audi Q3, made for the yes life. We're about to break down my NBA best-in-class pyramid, [59:44] The guy's playing well above... [59:47] the rest of the league. We just did Ringer 100, actually. I just turned in my votes. And I really, really battled with myself about whether I wanted to put Wemby or SGA in the top spot.

[59:58] And I'm not going to tell you what I did. [1:00:00] But that top four of Wemby, SGA, SGA, [1:00:03] Joker and Luca is about as good of a top four with everybody playing really well at the same time that we've had in a while. [1:00:10] So any pyramid would have to start with those four. And then you go down to that next level and it's got Jalen Brown and Donovan Mitchell and Kate Cunningham and so on and so on. [1:00:18] But I think that would be the... [1:00:20] the top four. And, [1:00:22] It's like the Audi Q3. [1:00:24] Those guys, that top four I mentioned, they're delivering a level of performance and refinement. [1:00:29] That puts them in a category of their own. The other fun thing about that four is, [1:00:33] All of them are so different, right? SGA's [1:00:36] He's the guard. Luca, I have no idea what position he is. Joker is like a center, but he's also a point guard. And then Wemby is just one of the freaks of all time that we've had in the NBA. Those guys are the NBA best in class. They show up and play on a totally different level. The all-new out of Q3 brings that same energy. [1:00:52] with faster acceleration than ever before, room for adventure in a digital stage that puts the whole game plan, [1:00:59] Right in front of you. [1:01:00] Say yes to performance. Say yes to the all-new Audi Q3. [1:01:04] Learn more at AudiUSA.com. [1:01:07] This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it. [1:01:21] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [1:01:25] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [1:01:27] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905.

[1:01:36] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. [1:01:38] Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. [1:01:45] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda. [1:01:50] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. [1:01:56] But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. [1:02:16] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. [1:02:45] All right, so coming up, it's my old friend, Wesley Morris. We used to work together at Grantland. He has a podcast called Cannonball for the New York Times. And we about to talk about the Oscars after it happened. So we're coming in right as, we went for too long. So I cut the first like seven, eight minutes and we went right into when we started talking about one battle after another versus Sinners. So here that is right now.

[1:03:07] I mean, it's been a long time. It's been 30 years of having this man in our lives and wanting the institutions to acknowledge how great he is at his job. Well, the origins of it could have happened for him and with with There Will Be Blood. [1:03:24] And he just went against the buzzsaw with No Country for Old Men. Right? So the 2008 Oscars... [1:03:30] And sometimes that happens, right? Like sinners, I think, in another year. [1:03:34] could have won all the major ones that they were up for, which is basically everything except for Best Actress. [1:03:40] That's his point about 70, 75, right? I mean, 75, the year, the movie year for 1975 at the 76 Academy Awards. And, you know, those five movies, Barry Lyndon, Jaws, [1:03:53] Dog Day Afternoon, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and... Mash them. [1:03:58] Nashville. I mean, come on, like four of those movies are going to lose. And, you know, historically, I watched one flew over the cuckoo's nest about a year ago. Yeah. And I [1:04:11] You know, the least... [1:04:14] I mean, the least impressive of the five and saying that like one flew over the cuckoo's nest is least impressive movie. Those five movies is a wild thing to say. And yet, like that is the one that is perhaps least discussed, I guess, like in these last 50 years is the one that's come up the least often, at least in my life. But Milos Forman, he's one of my I love him. I mean, every single movie he made pretty much, especially the Hollywood ones are pretty

[1:04:44] you know, chef's kiss. Well, we talk about, uh, this happens in sports too. [1:04:49] Sometimes the category is loaded. Sometimes you have an MVP, like the NBA, and it's like, holy shit, a lot of guys this year. [1:04:57] But then we also talk about distance, which is something we've been talking about in this podcast forever, like how we remember it. [1:05:04] five years from now. [1:05:05] Well, we think the right movie won. [1:05:08] Well, we think the right director won and stuff like that. This one, because it was one battle versus sinners... [1:05:15] for months and months. And then I felt like Marty Supreme was going to nudge some stuff in there, basically because it came out last. [1:05:24] This is something Sean had talked about, about just how late the Oscars were this year. [1:05:29] And by the time we actually had it, [1:05:31] it did feel like a lot of times since all of these movies came out. Right. And it probably hurts Chalamet the most, but, um, but I do wonder five years from now, what we're, [1:05:41] what we're going to think should have won. [1:05:42] Because I think there's people really strongly in both camps. You could feel it in the audience for the Oscars. It felt like Sinners was by far the most popular movie in the room, but that doesn't mean anything. Yeah, every nominee, from the Kraft folks to... [1:06:01] Michael B. Jordan and Ryan Coogler and the movie itself, even that production number when they did I Lied to You, [1:06:10] as part of the two songs that got performed during the show.

[1:06:14] you could feel the energy in that room for that performance. And it's not just because you had people like there were too many great musicians on stage, right? Yeah. Raphael Sadiq and Brittany Howard and Rhiannon Giddens and Shabuzi. I'm not putting him in the great musician class yet, but like he's good at his job. Um, [1:06:33] You know, Chris Stone, Kingfish, Ingram was up there. Buddy Guy didn't even play. He just stood around. Right. It just was, it was, it was extremely, it was, it was extremely, it was, it was, it was [1:06:43] impressive just to have those people up there kind of like, [1:06:47] contributing five seconds of music to this, you know, 90 second operation. But you could feel in the room that those people were at a at a concert, right? And they were reacting like they were seeing, you know, the people they were seeing on stage on stage for free. [1:07:03] So yeah, I don't, I mean, 5, 10, 15, 50 years from now, I will say... [1:07:11] That one battle after another, and I don't know if this is, this feels like it might be true in your life too, Bill, given the amount of time that I know you've talked at least about sinners. And almost certainly one battle after another, you live in Los Angeles, like a town that has... [1:07:26] such long, I don't know when to say ambivalent feelings about Paul Thomas Anderson, but you know, I mean, like the question always was, [1:07:34] you know, who's going to make the next one that's studio wise. And like, are the movies going to make any money? And so I spent, [1:07:41] I spent [1:07:42] a year and almost a year now talking about sinners. I've never had the same conversation twice. And

[1:07:49] I don't imagine I'm going to have the same conversation in five years talking about sinners. And one battle after another, I don't know, we should talk about this. I feel like, you know, of all PTA movies... [1:08:02] This is perhaps the most, at least in my life, this is the most contested one. [1:08:08] And it's the one where the contest, for me at least, feels like it... [1:08:14] It just really sucks to have these... [1:08:18] Thank you. [1:08:18] Mm-hmm. [1:08:19] arguments with people to pit movies against each other well to pit those two movies against each other but also the camp of people who really feel like one battle after another is just really doing black women dirty [1:08:30] and is operating on this continuum. You and I have talked about this particular... I thought it was the biggest flaw of the film. ...question before. [1:08:38] But see, I... [1:08:40] My thing about [1:08:44] What is going on in this movie is... [1:08:47] I think its best mode and perhaps the best way to understand it is... [1:08:53] Like something... [1:08:55] adjacent to a cartoon. [1:08:57] like a political cartoon. Right? [1:09:00] And, [1:09:01] The question that I... [1:09:04] The thing that excited me so much watching it that first time, which I'll never, ever forget, I just was so exhilarated and watched it in IMAX and it looked so good and felt like it weighed 4,000 pounds, was...

[1:09:21] The sheer fact that, [1:09:23] of Tiana Taylor as an elemental energy and a physical presence, right? I felt like [1:09:32] He was giving a black woman the treatment that he gives these white men in his movies. [1:09:38] He invented a character. And you know, Pynchon has a lot to do with this. Thomas Pynchon wrote Violin, the book that this movie is based on. [1:09:49] He came up with a character who is in the world of this movie a black woman who has... [1:09:56] as much weirdness and complication and like wrongness as the white guys do. Yeah. And that, that in the world of Paul Thomas Anderson is a form of that is, that is equality. But then undergirding that is this, are these, are these questions of like just American politics forget like leftist, [1:10:19] you know, white supremacist military industrial complex, but just like what the fundamental grimy roots of this country are all the soil they're growing in. And without really having to hit that drum too hard after the first 33 minutes, [1:10:35] you understand what the stakes are and you, [1:10:40] They don't have to be too specific about what the politics are. I never got hung up on the fact that these people believe in four things, and one of them is freedom from fucking fear. Like, yes, amen. I didn't need more from that because I feel like this is a chase picture. Yeah. You know, a chase infinity picture, a chase picture. Yeah.

[1:11:02] Between, you know, two white men... [1:11:05] for a black woman. And, you know, [1:11:08] Let's go back to, you know, that's a 400-year-old American story. [1:11:13] You know, I mean, I just kind of like the brazenness of it. [1:11:18] I liked its disrespect, but I'm also... [1:11:22] I'm so... [1:11:26] I don't know, comfortable with. And at this point, [1:11:29] here for and really... [1:11:33] I've absorbed all the critiques of this movie in, [1:11:36] In light of the in the light of the way I just laid out what I think is exciting and exhilarating about it, because, you know, there is also it's attached to this other history of how black women have been represented in art, culture and, you know, American commerce. If we're going back to like, you know, 1865 and before. [1:11:56] Mmm. [1:11:58] I thought both were... You gave me a lot to work with there. When I left the theater... [1:12:06] My biggest flaw with the movie, which I talked about after, was I was just... [1:12:10] It's like that person was a bad person. [1:12:13] - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - I still don't understand why they killed the people at the bank. [1:12:18] That was like, that crossed the line, right? And then basically... [1:12:23] dumps her kid, which is another terrible thing to do. And then there's this letter at the end that [1:12:28] She wrote, [1:12:29] Why aren't we sure she wrote that? I know we talked about this before, but do you have any more clarity on why? There's a theory that he wrote the letter to give the daughter closure.

[1:12:40] right um okay but listen big picture [1:12:44] I felt the same way you did in the theater, where I was like, this is just fucking cool. I'm just so glad there's a movie like this, which is the exact same way I felt about Sinners. And I think the... [1:12:55] 2026, the big picture when we look back at this on the year is just like, [1:13:00] Creative IP from scratch. [1:13:03] - Yes, yes. - Although Sinners is literally from scratch. [1:13:07] One Bad Owas adapted from a book. But either way, just two wholly original movies. If you read Vineland, you're like, how did he find this movie? Yeah, yeah. I'm saying at least there was a germ of somebody else's idea. [1:13:19] But just like how creative both those movies were, I think it's pretty inspiring. And then you talk about a director that we've been on this three-decade odyssey with. [1:13:29] who finally has his moment. [1:13:32] And then Coogler, [1:13:33] Who? [1:13:34] I would say probably has the highest approval rating of anyone in Hollywood right now. [1:13:38] I don't think I've heard one bad thing about him. Everybody loves him. [1:13:41] And he'll have his moment at some point and he'll have his PTA moment. I don't know when it'll be, but he'll be on the stage and people lose their minds. But, uh, [1:13:49] But two great ones. And now they're kind of linked in some weird way, I think. [1:13:53] Uh, yeah, I, I love, I mean, thank you for putting it that way. Cause I do feel like these movies are talking to each other in, in some way. [1:14:03] And I never felt good about them being pitted against each other. I know that that is the horse race nature of the way we think about the Academy Awards. But I don't know. I just really feel like the things, the events that unfold in Sinners, I don't know.

[1:14:21] have such like dimensional, dimensionalizing, um, [1:14:25] um, [1:14:27] consequences for what happens in one battle after another. Yeah. Right. I mean, you are this is two movies about [1:14:36] black people in America. [1:14:39] And the forces that are trying to almost literally extinguish and expunge and absorb and, you know, [1:14:49] rid white people of or for white people to sort of capitalize off of. In the case of sinners, it's just I don't know. I do feel great. [1:15:00] that these seem like the two movies that, [1:15:04] people were most enthusiastic about. [1:15:07] And you could feel just in the terms of the way the winners broke down. I don't remember exactly how many sinners wound up with versus one battle after another, but they feel close to me. [1:15:18] Yeah. [1:15:20] But, you know, then there, I mean, can you talk about Sean Penn for a second? [1:15:26] Well, there's a lot of stuff to work with with Sean Penn. [1:15:30] I talked about [1:15:32] with PTA doing basically the triple crown of movie director writing, which is – [1:15:39] Woody Allen. [1:15:40] Robert Benton, James L. Brooks. [1:15:42] Bong Joon-ho, and the Coens. [1:15:45] And that's the entire list, basically. So you have that. You also have Sean Penn moving into...

[1:15:52] Three Oscars. [1:15:54] Was that Meryl Streep? Daniel Day-Lewis? Jack Nicholson? So, [1:15:58] Katie Hepburn was four. I call her Katie. [1:16:00] Um, that's how you roll. [1:16:04] No, I have fun with four, but yeah, the three Oscar club is, uh, [1:16:09] is not large. But remember I wrote that, so I did that Oscars piece for ESPN Magazine in the late 2000s. [1:16:18] Where I created the scoring system. Oh, yeah. Okay. [1:16:22] Basically to try to prove that Meryl Streep was by using advanced metrics to prove that Meryl Streep was the greatest actor or actress of all time. [1:16:29] And the scoring system was Best Actor, Actress wins seven points. [1:16:33] Nominations three. [1:16:35] Best supporting Oscar wins three, and then supporting nominations won. [1:16:40] Right. And what was interesting about it. So Meryl Streep under the scoring system at 65%. [1:16:46] And Catherine Hepburn, 52. [1:16:48] And Jack Nicholson, 40. Those were the three biggest. [1:16:53] And what was interesting was getting to 20 was hard. There was like this weird cutoff with 20. [1:16:59] Where it was only Nicholson, Tracy, Olivier, Daniel Day-Lewis, Brando, Lemon, Denzel, Dustin Hoffman, 29, Newman, De Niro, Hanks, Peter O'Toole, Al Pacino, Leo now with 23, Gary Cooper, Frederick March, Anthony Hopkins, and now Sean Penn with 20. [1:17:16] So that's less than 20 actors. And if you're thinking about it, it's way harder to do this with actors than athletes. Be like, who's the greatest? Let's rank them. You can't do it. The eras are different. But it is a nice little list of...

[1:17:30] kind of actors that mattered over the last hundred plus years, right? And Sean Penn was right on the cusp, but now he's in there. Yeah, not one of those. I mean, it's funny because Sean Penn... [1:17:40] is probably the least likely to surface in a conversation that isn't among, you know, [1:17:47] our little circle. Right. Of the great actors. With the other actors, it seems like a lot of people felt like he was one of the guys. And that was the thing even in the 80s and 90s before he won an Oscar. That's one of the best actors we have. And he's always had that. [1:18:03] But it felt like it went away the last 10 years, and he just was... [1:18:07] hitting a pretty weird point of his career. [1:18:10] He just made weird choices. He went back to directing these. I mean, I don't think the movies were inherently strange, but I mean, commercially speaking, I mean, he was never really interested in the box office. He was following his instincts. And some of those movies were just, you know, that Dakota Johnson. [1:18:28] Well, he had that one where he was an assassin. Taxi. [1:18:31] Yeah. Taxi cab movie. It's just like he, he, you kind of didn't trust his taste anymore. At least I didn't. It was like, there's new Sean Penn movie. And I'm like, all right, I don't, well, I don't know if I trust that it's going to be good. [1:18:42] He does have this side of him that kind of wants it. Like, that's the only way you can. I don't know how else you explain I Am Sam, right? A movie that we all agree it's okay to laugh at the execution of a thing that is... [1:18:58] also execrable as storytelling and filmmaking. Well, it led to Simple Jack and Tropic Thunder. It was basically its ultimate destiny. Right, right. It was such a ridiculous choice that it had to be parodied within a decade. But I mean, it said to me, because all the great actors have that one performance where you're like,

[1:19:21] It's too much. You've gone too far. You want something too desperately. And sometimes going too far really does take you to the Academy Awards and put you on stage with an Oscar in your hand. I'm looking at you, Mr. Son of a Woman, Al Pacino. But that is also a performance that comes... [1:19:41] Like, [1:19:41] What? [1:19:42] 10 years after the one that really breaks him, which is Scarface. He does [1:19:47] He goes from, I think, and Justice for All. [1:19:52] Well, he has the great 70s. It's cruising, author, author. [1:19:57] And then Scarface. And then Scarface. And I think Scarface is the one. I mean, he, Nicholson, and Dunaway all break. They crack. [1:20:08] at the same time. Mommy Dearest comes out in 82, I want to say. Scarface is 82? 83, yeah. 82 or 83. It's 83, Scarface. And then The Shining is... That's 80. [1:20:20] Don't forget about De Niro kind of going sideways, too, during all this. But, you know, Bill, I have a scandalous feeling about that. I think Raging Bull is him cracking. That's the thing that, like, I mean, he wins an Oscar for it, but he's not the same after. He's a different actor. There's also massive amounts of cocaine going around [1:20:38] in Hollywood. So anytime I look at late 70s through like about 86, I never know what's going on. [1:20:45] It explains a lot of choices, a lot of the movies that were being made, a lot of the ups and downs of actors. Who knows? I just love that, though. I mean, and we're not. The thing that we're losing is the ability to sort of have this conversation, right? Like we cannot. I don't know who generationally like Michael B. Jordan wins best actor.

[1:21:08] Oh, I can't wait to talk about that. [1:21:10] But like, what are we, what does the equivalent of talking about a Faye Dunaway, Meryl Streep? I mean, and Faye Dunaway is just a person who I think was just one of the great, [1:21:21] 70s actors who like just shattered she went [1:21:25] She went, she didn't go too close to the sun. She flew into the sun. [1:21:30] Right. And tried to come out the other side of it. Tough. And mommy dearest. And a tough hang by all counts. [1:21:37] Yeah, sure. On the set, I think she was pretty tough to handle. And then Mommy Darius broke it, and then that was it. It got weird. When those cameras rolled, wasn't nobody more willing to do whatever needed to be done. I still think Chinatown is one of the... Her performance in Chinatown is the... I don't know. Have I said this to you before? I feel like I've said this to you before. What is it? Maybe... [1:22:03] I just think that [1:22:05] That is the greatest psychological performance I think I've ever seen. [1:22:08] I mean, maybe Isabelle Loupere and the piano teacher is is close. But Chinatown, it's just like she knows from the beginning of the performance what she's acting. But then she has to hold on to all of that. Mm hmm. [1:22:24] You know, she's keeping a secret from her. The character is keeping a secret from herself. [1:22:30] The actor is keeping the character secret while also keeping a secret from us. Nicholson, she has, she so wants to get caught and like unburden herself with this, that she is willing to get involved with a fucking detective, right?

[1:22:45] She wants to get caught. And all of those things are in that performance. Every single scene. It is just the way she uses her hands. The fluttering that her mouth does. Her eyes. The breath work. And the delivery of those lines. Oh my god. Her death. Like just what she looks like dead. [1:23:06] Oh my god. It's just one of the greatest performances ever. [1:23:10] of all time period. Who won that year? [1:23:13] Was that Ellen Burstyn? Yeah, she didn't win that year. That was Ellen Burstyn. [1:23:20] Yeah, Ellen Burson. Yeah, okay. I love that performance. We're probably doing that one over again five years later. That gets a redo. But Ellen Burson is great in that movie, though. That's the kind of thing you want to see actors. Ellen Burson in that movie, to me, I don't know how you feel about this. That's Chalamet in Marty Supreme. [1:23:41] Oh, explain. [1:23:43] what do you mean just like a really unpleasant person trying to live life right like i don't like that character i know where she's coming from i know where she's trying to get to but she is so abrasive and so hard to i guess quote root for unquote but the actor is delivering the thing [1:24:13] narcissistic woman whose dreams might not ever come true.

[1:24:17] and what you're watching Ellen Bernstein play is just... [1:24:23] Thank you. [1:24:24] The anger... [1:24:26] of those dreams failing, but also like, [1:24:28] loving this kid and letting this man into her life? But, you know, because it's Chris Christopherson, you better let him in. [1:24:36] But also, what does it mean to have him there? [1:24:39] Anyway, I don't know. Do you like that performance? [1:24:41] Well, the Oscars loves those kind of characters, right? Nicholson won with that, with As Good As It Gets, same thing. Horrible guy, and now I'm starting to like him by the end of this. Yeah, but you know, I hate that movie. I know you do. No, you hate that. We've discussed in the past. The greatest thing about the Alice movie is that it led to the CBS sitcom Alice with Linda Lavin and Vic Payback. It's one of the weirdest movie versus TV show adaptations we've had. [1:25:08] But 75 is a good example. [1:25:10] Because that was when Art Carney won for Harry and Tonto and beat Pacino and Godfather and [1:25:16] Part two, which was one of the great performances of the last 60 years. And then, uh, yeah. And then Faye Dunaway doesn't win for Chinatown either, but this is what happens. I do wonder if, [1:25:27] It's a really tough one because I thought Chalamet was great, Marty Supreme. [1:25:32] It's also a movie I probably don't ever want to see again. [1:25:35] It was a one-timer for me. [1:25:38] Now, with such things, I've only seen one battle once, and I'm not positive that. [1:25:43] I'll see it again at some point, but I haven't been racing back to see it. But I've seen Sinners four times.

[1:25:48] Interesting. So I don't know whether rewatchability affects some of the stuff with [1:25:52] Great movies. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it does. [1:25:55] But with Marty Supreme, he's so great in it. [1:25:58] But I thought that movie was... [1:26:02] He just kind of needed to take a shower after. It was a lot. I think that's why it didn't... I think, you know... [1:26:09] Something happened with that movie and, and, and its response and I learned the response to it. Um, and I think what you're identifying is something like what people felt, you know, I, I, [1:26:21] You know, we did an episode of Cannonball on the reaction to that movie. And part of that conversation that I had with Sasha Weiss was just like reading the comments that got filed on Manola Dargis' review of the movie. And, you know, she loved it. [1:26:39] And, uh, [1:26:40] The comments were like, you are out of your mind. [1:26:43] That is the least pleasant time I've had in a movie ever. I didn't finish it. I walked out. He is a reprehensible character. Why are we cheering this asshole? [1:26:53] And I think that, you know. It's a little like one battle with what we talked about earlier with that character. Why am I cheering for this person? Yeah, but the thing about one battle after another is. I'm talking about that Tiana Taylor character. Yeah, yeah, but Perfidia. I mean, Perfidia is still the mother of Charlene slash Willa, right? So the person you're really rooting for there is Charlene. [1:27:17] So I feel like the thing about.

[1:27:22] The thing that makes Marty Supreme great is also the thing that makes people hate it. [1:27:26] Well it's a 1950s ping pong movie New York And you know It's heavily Jewish which I'm sure Like affected some people's thoughts of this It's a holocaust movie It's like such a holocaust flex It's uh And there's some crazy ping pong CGI stuff Like I can see why people are like [1:27:46] the fuck is going on here? I also think that the [1:27:51] The way that they sold that movie... [1:27:53] I think people went thinking it was going to be like a cute... I think the ping pong confused people. Right. I think people really thought it was going to be like... That was Benning Forrest Gump. Yeah, honestly. He's just like doing a tour. [1:28:09] Now, it was yet another movie that was super creative... [1:28:14] and had an insane performance at the center of it that was like, wow, I haven't seen anything like this in a while. I just, I said this at the time, we did a really long rewatchables about Sinners. [1:28:25] I thought what MBJ did in that movie, I just couldn't believe how good he was. [1:28:30] And I don't want to say I didn't know he had it in him, but I had kind of reached a point where I wasn't sure he had it in him. [1:28:37] And I thought that the subtleties between the two twins were, [1:28:41] Kind of that 70s macho that he had to have. I thought the accent worked. [1:28:48] I thought that ending, which I just, I just love the ending of that movie. And I thought he was so good in that final scene. The epilogue or the KKK? I'm talking the epilogue. I love the epilogue. Yeah, I love the epilogue too. I love the epilogue. I just thought he was so good and I, and.

[1:29:03] It was a classic. It was like watching when you have an NBA player who toils away for 10 years and finally wins the title. That's how it felt watching it. It was like, holy shit. He put it together. He did it. [1:29:14] Yeah, I mean, I, I, that is the metaphor that I used in some, so I, you know, I watched him, [1:29:21] with Sean and Amanda, win that, you know, SAG award. Yeah. Um... [1:29:28] And, you know, there was that image of him like looking at like looking down at the floor with his hands on his head. [1:29:36] And I don't just that really stuck with me. And, you know, it's like an image that got like that was used to stand in for the rest of the acceptance speech. And like as and to sort of be a metaphor for how we all felt about him winning was like, whoa. Well, even having having Landry from Friday Night Lights in the front row and him doing this, like MBJ has been an important part of pop culture. [1:30:00] For this entire century. You go to how important he was, the first season of The Wire. He's in Friday Night Lights, which was this beloved show that people felt like [1:30:10] This whole generation of people felt like they saved it [1:30:13] It was going to get canceled. They saved it. And then he became a big part of the Renaissance. [1:30:18] And then, you know, Fruitvale, which is... [1:30:20] I actually watched Fruitvale this week. Oh, did you? And... [1:30:25] I forgot how good it was. I hadn't seen it in a while. It's not a movie you're going to watch 20 times because it's just so... [1:30:32] It's hard. It's so hard to watch. So then with Frufeo goes right to Creed,

[1:30:37] resuscitates the Rocky franchise, right? And that was one of those things where it's like, oh, I'm rooting for these guys, the Fruitvale guys. I can't wait. Had them on the podcast. Can't wait to see what's next for these guys. And then it's like, oh shit, they're doing Creed? Like, what's going on? [1:30:53] Did you think that was weird at the time? I was worried about it. It's like the same way I feel about the Miami Vice remake in Heat 2 now. Where it's like, [1:31:03] obviously I hope this works, but are we sure guys? I mean, the Miami Vice remake. By the way. And he's going to be in that, by the way. But it's just like he just has found a way to permeate culture over and over again. [1:31:17] But I never, I thought that shit might have sailed on the Oscar for him. It felt like he was moving into like, kind of where Jamie Foxx ended up in the 2010s, like, [1:31:26] action movies, maybe a couple of dramas, maybe some fun cameos, but could he carry a movie and be a best actor? [1:31:33] I didn't know. Yeah, I don't know. What year is that? I mean, I don't want to get hung up on Jamie Foxx, but like The Soloist, whatever year I guess The Soloist is in the 2010s. It was in that great, he had a great 2000s, right? Yeah. That includes, I think, one of the best performances of the 21st century, which is like him and The Soloist. And Downey is great in that movie too. [1:31:59] And it's, you know, Joe Wright, [1:32:03] brightness. I don't know. That movie is very moving. If you've never seen The Soloist,

[1:32:09] It's got two slam dunk performances in it, and it's got [1:32:13] Such good imaginative filmmaking from Joe Wright. [1:32:17] and you know it came and went it's one of those movies it wasn't trying to win any Oscars came out in April or March or something well you know the thing with MBJ [1:32:27] So – [1:32:28] And he'd been doing press for this movie for a fucking year, right? Just sit there and see. Yeah. But he did a really good job of... [1:32:38] just kind of played it close to the vest. You don't really, didn't have any damaging quotes or some weird anecdotes or something. But he's just not going to sink any campaign. But go on. He was just [1:32:48] He was just getting first downs, just moving the chains. [1:32:54] And Chalamet, and I don't think this was really 100% fair to him, but it felt like he's been promoting shit for a year and a half. And he's just been omnipresent. He's involved with one of the Kardashians. [1:33:05] which the people have a feeling about that. The movie was polarizing. [1:33:10] Then he had a couple dopey interview moments. And at some point he hit that really rare... [1:33:17] Fuck that guy. [1:33:18] potential, which happens sometimes where people kind of go, [1:33:23] Fuck that guy. [1:33:26] But nobody's like that with MBJ. So I do think that helps. No, it's the opposite. It's the opposite. Actually, I think his humbleness really, I mean, or at least the perception of his being humble. He's really like that, though. Yeah. I actually think he's genuinely like that. Whenever he came on your show...

[1:33:44] When. [1:33:45] Was it before Creed? He came on 2013. He came on. He came to my house in 2015. So it wasn't even Creed. No, he came the second. I had him three times in like six years. When was the first time? 2013. He came to the Grandland Studios. Okay. By the way, I coached him at the Celebrity All-Star Game too and he was like, we're basically trying to get him the ball. Kevin Hart just was ball hockey. [1:34:11] Shocker. But a couple interesting things with him just growing up. [1:34:15] was Wallace forever. [1:34:17] Like for a decade he was Wallace, but he also had the Michael Jordan thing. [1:34:22] It's like Michael Jordan, Michael B. Jordan. So you're not as good as Michael Jordan. And that Michael Jordan thing really hung over him the first 10 years of his career because just because of his name. [1:34:31] I don't feel like he shed it until Fruitvale. [1:34:34] I think when the fruit fail thing was just incredibly important for him in a, in a whole bunch of different ways. And it's a really important movie, you know? And you think like, [1:34:43] That movie happens... [1:34:45] what, seven years before George Floyd? [1:34:48] whatever but it was but it comes out at the same time basically as Trayvon Martin right and it just it's a pivotal movie for a lot of reasons but it was pivotal for him [1:35:01] Because it was like, oh, shit. [1:35:03] Wallace. [1:35:05] Vince from Friday Night Lights. The guy from Parenthood. [1:35:10] Parenthood. I forgot about that. [1:35:13] But he broke through all of it. And now he's minted.

[1:35:16] I had a whole little... I really believe this. I don't know if I should be ashamed of myself for having this feeling, but I feel like that B is doing a lot now. I never think about Michael Jordan. I never think about 23. Ever, ever, ever. I don't think about him at all. I think about that B as being like an action verb. [1:35:39] Oh, yeah. It's like a verb. Michael B. Jordan. It's just something... [1:35:47] It's a sentence to me. Right. [1:35:51] And I just he's such a fun even, you know, like I would not have voted for him for best actor. I just wouldn't have because I'm really not. I'm so much less about my feelings. Who would you vote for? [1:36:06] I would have gone Wagner Mora, Timothee Chalamet, [1:36:11] Although I would have probably gone back and forth between Chalamet and Wagner Mora in the in the secret agent. But those would have been my top two options. And I, you know, I know that DiCaprio, you know, I woke up like this. I feel like he kind of can do these things in his sleep of, you know, but he did a version of the same thing in Killers of the Flower Moon. And it was terrible. Right. He was not good in that movie. And he's got such control over the material here. [1:36:40] in one battle after. I also think he's better directed in one battle after another, which is a wild thing to say about Martin Scorsese directing DiCaprio, because, you know, that relationship. But I just think that the comedy...

[1:36:53] of this movie is what he could lean into. [1:36:56] And there's so that the comedy in one battle after another is so elastic that it just gives all the things that DiCaprio is good at someplace to go. Like, I think that that stretch from when he gets to... [1:37:11] Sergio San Carlos's, Benito del Toro's karate studio. [1:37:17] to the moment that he gets caught [1:37:19] with the taser falling off the roof. And his... [1:37:24] the way he performs that being tased, [1:37:27] is up there with the Quaalude... [1:37:32] Crawl from the house to Lamborghini. [1:37:35] in Wolf of Wall Street. [1:37:36] Right. That's just such a good the physical comedy dimension of how he plays Pat slash Bob in one battle after another. I'm not going to say it's underrated, but it's a huge part of what makes it makes that performance great. [1:37:50] really good. Anyway, I would have gone Wagner Mora, [1:37:54] Timothee Chalamet, [1:37:55] probably DiCaprio and then Michael B. Jordan because I'm not crazy about Blue Moon. I hate to say it. I do not love that movie. And I feel like Ethan Hawke is kind of [1:38:05] trapped in the gimmick, in the shrinking, in the short man gimmick. Yeah. I just didn't feel the tragedy of that story or even the sadness of it. I had Chalamet and B.J. basically 55, 45, but I'm not even sure which way. On your ballot? On your ballot?

[1:38:24] I think I would have voted for Chalamet ultimately, but I would have agonized over it for three weeks because I just thought – [1:38:34] And this isn't fair to do this. [1:38:37] What's a harder performance? And both of them were so hard. [1:38:41] Hard, yeah. Those are hard performances. First of all, playing twins that are [1:38:46] different, but not too different, but definitely different where you could tell them apart and what some of the choices... [1:38:53] Jordan made with that, I thought, was... [1:38:55] I thought that stood out. But [1:38:58] Chalamet, that's just an insane movie. I don't know how many actors could have even made that movie work. So I think I probably would have landed on Chalamet. [1:39:08] I would have loved to see somebody try with Michael B. Jordan. I think Michael B. Jordan might have... [1:39:14] a Marty Mauser in him somewhere. Maybe. I would love to see him. I would love to like, but that's a really, I mean, Michael Jordan, Michael B. Jordan's 39. [1:39:24] Timothee Chalamet's 30. Well, did you see he's had three Oscar nominations already before 30? It's like, [1:39:30] about as rare as it gets. I do wonder if Chalamet just goes to New Zealand to film a movie and, [1:39:36] Let's say he's filming Dune 3 in frigging Dubai, wherever. [1:39:41] And he's just gone the entire time. [1:39:43] promotion season. And I know they needed him to promote this stuff. And that was a big part of the movie itself is that. [1:39:50] they had to blow this out and do all these like outside the box things to get people to go see a 1950s ping pong movie. And it worked, right? It worked. I do wonder if he's just,

[1:40:00] gone, like Leo style, where he's just out. Can you do that and still be with a Jenner Kardashian, though? Is that possible? Maybe not. I don't think that's how that works. Maybe he's wearing Chromeheart suits at Knicks games. Like, this is just... I don't... But what's happened here now is now he's moved into the... [1:40:17] you have to escape the fuck this guy. [1:40:20] area. [1:40:21] and you evolve out of it and then people are like, oh, I like this guy again. This is the Ben Affleck Argo scenario. Okay, this is what I like. This is why I came here. Listen, [1:40:32] Let's just talk about what his life looks like if nothing changes personally, right? Because [1:40:39] On the one hand, this guy is in a really shitty position. [1:40:42] He is doing, he is the only person at his level of actorly faith. [1:40:48] Doing the thing that we complain, we like plebeians complain, we're not. [1:40:54] Nobody does anymore. Nobody gives, nobody's just like telling the publicist to go in the other room while I do an interview. Nobody's like just hanging around for some internet content for somebody who needs it. Nobody's promoting stuff the right way. It's like that we talk about tennis players and golf and golfers this way. [1:41:10] These guys aren't interesting. They need to be marching. And then he was actually interesting. And people were like, fuck this guy. [1:41:16] Yeah, I just feel like [1:41:18] Do you want Taylor Fritz to be your movie star? [1:41:21] Or do you want this Timothy Chalamet? [1:41:24] Taylor Fritz, by the way, for people who aren't paying attention, is a very sleepy tennis player who's good at his job, but is also something you bounce a basketball on. What about everybody on the woman's side right now?

[1:41:35] Sabalenka, I mean You mean tennis wise or acting wise? Tennis wise [1:41:41] I mean, Sabalenka is fun. I mean, she says some crazy shit. [1:41:46] And she doesn't apologize. Well, sometimes she'll apologize for it, but she speaks her mind. I don't know. I've never had a Sabalenka conversation with anybody at dinner. Hey, what do you think of Sabalenka? It's never happened. All right. Fair. But I'm just saying, if y'all want to talk about a really fiery tennis player who's great at her job, Arena Sabalenka is there for you. Have I told you about Serena theory, by the way, before I'm going to interrupt you and then keep going? Oh, no. Go on. [1:42:16] for a pro sports thing for her to come back right now. Oh, man. It would be so compelling. I'd be so into it. [1:42:24] What would be more fun? [1:42:25] Just come back. Just come back to us. Why are we doing this to ourselves? Just come back. We cannot do this. [1:42:30] Just come back. You know she could do it. [1:42:34] What would be more fun? [1:42:36] it would you know if Tom Brady came back it would be like this is terrible please don't do this if Serena came back I'd be like what time is she playing [1:42:45] But first of all, what an insult to the rest of the field. I'm sorry. I'm just going to say that. Yeah. Whether it turns out to be true, you could be right, right? Like she does get to the quarter semis and finals of events that she enters. She's the greatest tennis player of all time. [1:43:00] Yes, sure. [1:43:02] But you know what she's not out there doing every day that Elena Rabakina is doing every day? Right, just hitting four hands for five hours. She's just...

[1:43:09] playing tennis every day. I know. That's what would be so compelling. Anyway, I interrupted you. [1:43:13] I just, I don't, I don't, I can't, like, it's hard enough watching Venus lose in the first round. [1:43:19] Five times a year. Still. So you're pro Chalamet because he's interesting. And I completely agree. But I also think he was. I think he was in the limelight for too long. And I'm not the first person to make that point. Sometimes you can burn people out on your persona. [1:43:36] I also don't love the wigger thing that he was on for, you know, getting Marty Supreme rolled out, right? Like, he was doing that thing that makes everybody, you know, anybody who's attuned to, like, you know, our minstrel past. He was very comfortable sort of fucking with that. And... [1:43:56] And it wasn't in a knowing way. I mean, I guess it was knowing, but it wasn't. [1:44:01] He was leaning into and not questioning or challenging this thing. He was daring us to notice and comment on it. And that didn't feel great. But at the same time, again, like, [1:44:13] He is doing, he is the kind of star that we say we want to have. [1:44:19] And, you know, I think it is polarizing... [1:44:23] in a lot of ways. But, you know, my coffee girl, Chloe, you know, one of the coffee shops I go to in New York City, you know, Chloe, nothing is going to break her from her typical talent. I like that you name-dropped Chloe like we knew who this was. [1:44:37] Chloe, I mean, Chloe at Culture Coffee. I mean, if y'all know, you know. I mean, the culture on 38th and 6th. Like, she, there's nothing, she is worried about this relationship.

[1:44:50] with him going into the Kenner Kardashian family. How can he not be? Imagine if this is my son. [1:44:57] Be like, yeah, so he's dating one of the Kardashians. You'd be like, what's he doing? Why? I mean, but I think that that is part of... [1:45:06] I mean, we know the story that it just doesn't it doesn't always end well for the people who go in there. Oh, really? Um. [1:45:13] Is that what you've been hearing? [1:45:17] Listen, I think this is ultimately from a career-wise perspective. [1:45:23] From a career standpoint, [1:45:25] This is great for him. Big picture, 20 years from now, we will look back and we'll think, this is awesome. You needed to get punched in the chin a couple times. This happens in sports. This happens in movies all the time. We've seen the greats. [1:45:42] Sometimes it's good to get a black eye and have a broken tooth. [1:45:46] And then bounce back from it. [1:45:48] I really love the way he entered the Dolby auditorium. I don't know if you caught any of the red carpet stuff, but I don't, [1:45:54] I did not see him stop and talk to anybody. Well, he was walking to his assassination, basically. Like he knew it was going to be one of the worst nights of his life. [1:46:04] He was going into a roast. He certainly had, I'm going to get roasted energy. And he looked like Kevin Richardson from the Backstreet Boys. Yeah. You know, but he had some real, like, I'm going to get rickled. I'm going to get rickled energy going in there. He was strolling real hard. He'll be fine. He's a great actor. And good things will happen to him. I told you, I thought Jesse Buckley had the best performance, male or female, of this century. And you made a noise.

[1:46:33] You didn't really like that take. I didn't. I mean. You weren't in the hand then. [1:46:37] You're just not an emotional guy. [1:46:39] Have you met me? Stop. I think that the problem that I have with that performance is I just didn't understand [1:46:48] why the movie existed. And I sort of felt like it was an acting exercise in search of a reason to be. [1:46:57] I liked it. And then, and then the end comes. And like many other people, although I know a lot of people who, who, who got emotional at the end and were furious that it made them emotional. But the end, the end really works. And, you know, I think that it's, it's gotta be said, Bill, like that is maybe the greatest birth scene ever. [1:47:20] I mean, I know Vanessa Kirby also has a really tough one. You feel like it's actually happening. [1:47:26] Yeah, that is a really, I don't know how you, there's some things I don't know how you act. And giving birth is just one of those things where I'm just like, [1:47:37] Wow. Well, there's also been some really bad versions of it, too. Sure, sure. But I mean, they usually don't take place in a forest. Pam that for an hour or [redacted address] in a forest. For an hour and 20 minutes, you're like, what the fuck with this movie? [1:47:54] Yes. What the hell? And then all of a sudden, but all of a sudden, but this is, I think you have to, [1:48:01] The last 20 to 25 minutes...

[1:48:03] are so good. [1:48:05] you just don't even remember the first hour 20. It's like, [1:48:08] it turns into like, you're like, is this the greatest movie I've ever seen? And you just forgive the rest of it. [1:48:14] Bill so you're saying you're saying what I'm saying you're just also loving the movie because you expunged the first hour 20 minutes I thought the ending the whole last stretch was so good I didn't care that I was mad at the first part once she leaves to go to the theater I'm like okay when she's heading to the theater it was great uh [1:48:35] Best Oscars in memoriam ever. It took them forever to figure out how to do this. What do you think took them so long? [1:48:42] I don't know. [1:48:43] I just think [1:48:44] I think it took them forever to understand... [1:48:48] This is one of the only parts of the show where everybody's like, [1:48:52] I didn't realize he died. I didn't realize she died. Oh, I love that person. Like you could almost put this as an actual TV show. And I think it would get, [1:49:00] ratings. Okay. So you're a genius at that sort of thing. I don't know what you're talking to me for right now when you could be writing a pitch. It's so depressing. Here's our in memoriam for the year. Death show. But the Ralph Reiner thing, the only thing they fucked up, and I was so happy they did that. And obviously one of the worst Hollywood stories we've had. [1:49:22] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [1:49:23] They did a great job. Billy Crystal was awesome. Didn't break. [1:49:27] I thought he was gonna and he didn't do it. Never broke because he's a pro. [1:49:31] They show all these people from the movies. Yeah, yeah.

[1:49:35] And it's like four seconds. [1:49:37] I was like Can we sit with us for five minutes Do you know how long I've waited I was just about to say it [1:49:46] I was been waiting to see Daphne Zuniga at the Academy Award. What are we doing? I want to see all these people one at a time. I just couldn't. They quickly skipped over it. Meg Ryan was out there. I'm not even sure all the people that were out there. I don't even know either. Was Michael Douglas out there? I don't even know. [1:50:05] I don't know. I don't know. It's a great question. [1:50:09] Arr. [1:50:10] I don't know. [1:50:11] Oh, wait, did they do a... No, they didn't do it. No, they didn't. [1:50:14] He has no reason to be there. They skipped over no filmography. I thought I saw Fred Savage. I'm like, what's Fred Savage out there? [1:50:21] Oh, interesting. Was it like Patinkin? I don't know. But I thought that was great. I loved that. So they go through half of the memoriam. [1:50:31] And then Rachel McAdams comes out. [1:50:33] and does like a whole Diane Keaton thing. I'm like, great choice. Good job. Way to talk about some of the best females. They go through that. [1:50:41] Then they end with Streisand, which... [1:50:44] On the one hand, it was almost like watching one of our parents try to speak. It was like, oh, God, I hope this goes well. [1:50:52] And obviously she doesn't have the voice anymore, but it was weirdly touching. [1:50:56] Because she meant it. Yeah. Because she meant it. I would have Jane Fonda out there with her. I thought Jane Fonda and her should have been together for that. Did you see Jane Fonda what she said? Well, I

[1:51:06] She was joking, but it was one of those, I'm not totally joking. [1:51:11] Yeah, I don't know. She was like, I made four movies for them. [1:51:14] My Spanish is not good enough to pick up on the nuances of sarcasm, but it just seemed like she was saying, I read it in... [1:51:21] uh, [1:51:22] El Pais. So I'm not sure. I mean, the sarcasm might have been lost on me, but it seemed like she- [1:51:30] Yeah, I think she should have. I wonder what happened. I wonder how they asked, who they asked. Oh, I think we know what happened. Streisand's like, I'm only doing it if it's me. [1:51:41] Oh, interesting. [1:51:43] I'm not sharing the stage with anyone. It's got to be all good. Yeah, I just kind of loved how... [1:51:50] Like she just she just like woke up and was at the at the at the theater ready to do this. You know what else I love it? It tied into one of my other favorite things. [1:52:00] When somebody who's old [1:52:03] who had an awesome, incredible career, still carries themselves like they were just as famous as they were 50 years ago. [1:52:09] Yes. And I mean that as a compliment, not an insult. Nope. Nope. My mom always has this theory. My mom's had this theory forever that [1:52:18] Somebody who is beautiful at age 18 carries themselves like that for the rest of their life, no matter what they look like when they're 60. [1:52:26] And it's the same thing with famous people. If you hit a level of fame, [1:52:30] that you're just that way your whole life. [1:52:33] I'm sure Faye Dunaway before she died when I think she's dead.

[1:52:38] No, don't put that out there. Stay down the way alive. [1:52:41] Yes, she is. I'm sure Faye Dunaway right now, if you met her, would be carrying herself like one of the biggest stars in the world. I just think you almost have to buy into it to be that famous. [1:52:53] Yes. You're purchasing it. You don't lose it. [1:52:57] This is like, you know, I mean... [1:52:59] I like to talk to people about this. And if I had a different show that I was doing where I was just having people on to talk about how old they feel. Yeah. You know, Max Linsky had a great show called... [1:53:11] 70 over 70. [1:53:13] And it was just like, like people of note over the age of 70, like, [1:53:17] talking about what it's like to be the age they are. And I am, like, one of the things that comes up on that show is... [1:53:24] Like, how old do you feel you are? And I think a lot about, like, what is the age that you... [1:53:33] are going to feel when you're [1:53:35] 85 years old. Mine is 32. I have felt 32 since I was 27. And what's yours, Bill? How do I feel right now? [1:53:45] No, I mean, how do you, what's your spiritual age? Like, what do you... 44. How old do you feel as a person? 44, because I can't play basketball anymore. [1:53:53] I mean I probably could I would just get hurt That's a great answer but when you think of yourself you think of yourself as a 44 year old [1:54:01] Yeah, because I'm still... [1:54:04] I'm still locked in. [1:54:06] Yeah, I mean, I think that

[1:54:08] Barbra Streisand, I wonder what she would say her age is. Like, I wonder what she would say she is she like, [1:54:14] The 19 year old girl who got discovered singing at the Bonsoir. [1:54:18] In the village? [1:54:19] you know, I mean, she was younger than 19, I think, um, [1:54:23] I think that Jane Fonda is also one of these people. How old does Jane Fonda think she is? I guarantee she still probably... [1:54:34] Feels like she's a hot 42-year-old. [1:54:36] Yeah. I think that she probably is still doing workouts. Workout videos. And I think that for movies, I just think it's really important. Like Denzel, I think Denzel still thinks he's 25. Oh, you could see that in the Spike movie. [1:54:52] That was a performance that he's probably 10 years to do. He's like, fuck it. Is there a chase scene? I'm in. It can sometimes go bad. It can sometimes ruin movies. But a lot of the time, it brings out [1:55:09] something really... [1:55:11] interesting and special. I think that's the thing that I love watching about Denzel now is that even when the movie is bad or like he is even bad in the movie, he's committed to whatever it is he has decided to do in front of those cameras. And it is youthful. Yeah. And like the youthfulness of it is really powerful. Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited

[1:55:41] Get the Unreal College deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. [1:56:01] You have one new message. [1:56:06] Translating. Disney and Pixar's Hoppers is now available on Disney+. You could say that again. Critics are calling it Pixar's funniest movie ever and a wildly entertaining ride. Blizzard Potato. It's certified fresh and verified hot. Now we party. This is incredible! Wow, I am clear in the rest of the day. Disney and Pixar's Hoppers now available on Disney+. [1:56:31] I'm going to see. [1:56:32] You know, we have a... It's CR month on the rewatchables. I'm sorry you weren't a part of it. Thank the Lord. These movies... [1:56:39] I just finished To Live and Die in LA, a movie, I will tell y'all, y'all are going to kill me. I've never watched it. [1:56:45] So I watched, you know, I mean, one of the great things about the show is I'll just listen to episodes. I mean, I've seen it. I mean, well, now I that's this is one of the ones where like I watched it. Couldn't believe I've never seen it. [1:57:01] Forgot freaking had directed it. Listen to you guys talk about it. And was like, I cannot wait to smoke this movie. Well, so next week, we have...

[1:57:11] we did the nice guys. [1:57:13] And one of the things I brought up was Ryan Gosling's, not to step on three watchables, but we, Brian Gosling's 2016, he has the nice guys in La La Land. [1:57:25] And I was saying how one of the awards I would love to have in the Oscars... [1:57:28] is just the MVP for the movie year. [1:57:31] Like how we do in sports. And it could be a movie, it could be a director, it could be a writer, it could be anybody. But like, who is the most impactful? And it would kind of be shaded toward... [1:57:41] If you did at least two movies... [1:57:43] that were [1:57:45] consequential in different ways for some reason, or somebody that just owned the year. [1:57:51] So I think for this year, if we did the MVP, I think it would be PTA. [1:57:58] because... [1:57:59] of what he does, the three awards he wins for that movie, which as we discussed, [1:58:05] Not a long list for that. [1:58:07] Also gets Sean Penn. [1:58:09] an Oscar. [1:58:11] Another great Leo movie. [1:58:13] Chase Infinity, he basically... The money. [1:58:16] The money that it makes and... [1:58:20] will continue to make. And then some of the stuff it did for some of the actors in the movie, and then the Benicio del Toro gets nominated, Tiana Taylor. [1:58:28] Um, um, [1:58:29] the impact of it on all these different careers, plus how it did, I think he's probably the MVP. [1:58:34] But I wanted to talk it out. [1:58:36] Yeah, I think... Ooh, I like that. I feel like...

[1:58:42] I think it's hard to argue in that, you know, I don't know when the I don't know when in like the NBA, for instance, when this. [1:58:50] I mean, it always seems in the NFL that it's just statistics that determine it. It's not like feelings. Yeah, NBA is weird because NBA is regular season. I always thought there should be an award, like a playoffs MVP, but – [1:59:03] Movies are easy because it's just like 2025s. [1:59:06] It's basically who owned the year. [1:59:09] Well, but what I'm saying is what I'm actually asking is in your evaluation of Paul Tom, I mean, you did not introduce this, so I'm assuming it's inadmissible. Yeah. But the idea that the Oscars have to tie into it somehow. [1:59:23] No, it's the opposite. Does there have to be [1:59:26] Is there a history that you can take into consideration when making your choice, right? Like, do you think about the fact that it's taken PTA this long to get the MVP? [1:59:36] I think part of its narrative, part of it is... Has he even been one of the three finalists for an MVP? Do you know what I mean? Like, [1:59:43] He's never even been to this dance before in the way that he's been there. [1:59:48] Yeah, so... [1:59:50] If you did 07,000, [1:59:51] That gets really hard because you could say that Dana Day-Lewis, that's one of the great performances of all time. [1:59:57] Yes. Or you could say, yo, the Coen Brothers... [2:00:01] This is... [2:00:03] their whole career was leading up to this and they've completely resuscitated Josh Brolin and what they did to Javier Bardem and create one of the great villains of all time and they, Cormac McCarthy and Tommy Lee Jones, it's like this exclamation point in his career and they're probably the MVPs of that year, but

[2:00:21] And by the way, this is completely stupid. I'm fully aware. I'm sure there's movie nerds like, this is the worst thing I've ever heard. Shoot me. Don't do this. But it's a fun idea. Like kind of who owned the year. It's kind of an interesting idea. Right. I mean, like there was the year Sandra Bullock was definitely the MVP. [2:00:36] I think it was the next year, wasn't it? No, maybe it was like... For Blindside? 2009. Yeah, I mean, she had Blindside and the Proposal. Where she taught us how to think about race? [2:00:45] Yes, of course. I mean, I can be a better black mother than this man's, than Michael Orr's black mother. Never really considered all the stuff that movie made me consider before. But I mean, you know, the proposal and the blind side and the way that like it completely kind of [2:01:03] changed the [2:01:04] our understanding of what it was that Sandra Bullock [2:01:07] could be in late, sort of mid-late career. It's a great point. I love, not only did you embrace my idea [2:01:16] But you came up with an awesome MVP season, DeSandre Bullock, to do the rom-com. [2:01:22] win the Oscar... [2:01:23] She's also hot in the blind side. [2:01:26] Like, it's kind of like millfall of fame. [2:01:28] She really graduated into this different level of whatever and this sass. And nobody knew she had it in her. [2:01:36] No, that's the thing, right? Because the thing that makes her year, for instance, really interesting is... [2:01:43] that, [2:01:44] You just didn't think of her in all the ways that you were sort of being... [2:01:50] allowed to think of her, which is as

[2:01:53] Well, I think the sass, without having to sort of suffer for it. The sexy sass. [2:01:59] So we had Inglourious Bastards that year, and we had Avatar. [2:02:05] We had the Hurt Locker. Catherine Bigelow won picture and director. [2:02:09] Yeah, Cameron. [2:02:10] That's a, [2:02:11] That's a big one. And she beat her ex-husband, which was a fun one. So she would have gotten, she would have definitely been a finalist. [2:02:20] She would have been a finalist. But I mean, I think that that's Sandra Bullock's. That's not. See, this is a fun exercise. The MVP. Yeah. I think PTA was the MVP, but I'm willing to accept other. I mean, the other candidates include Kugler. [2:02:35] Kugler 100%. [2:02:37] Um... [2:02:38] Who would have been like if it's just... I mean, you could argue with the Coogler. You could argue the case... [2:02:44] Part of his case would be [2:02:46] the movie reverting back to him 25 years later. [2:02:49] Oh, and yeah, that's a good one, which is that he's not the first one that came up with that. But also like, [2:02:55] what that movie meant to Warner Brothers 2. [2:02:58] what it meant to Michael B. Jordan. Yeah, it's a good battle. [2:03:02] By the way, we mention this every time we talk about the Oscars, standing back to when we were at Grantland together. And even we did an Oscars preview. I think, was that on ABC or ESPN? [2:03:11] I don't... I think it ran on both. It was right before I left. [2:03:19] Thank you. [2:03:20] When we did that whole Oscars preview that year, and there was a reason I brought this up, because we were...

[2:03:27] We had all these fake goofy awards for it. [2:03:30] Yes. That were super fun. [2:03:33] They did add the best casting. [2:03:35] This year, which I enjoyed. And it made me wonder, are we going to start [2:03:39] Because I still feel like Best Young Star should be an Oscar. And I know they've talked about this on The Big Picture, too. [2:03:46] under a certain age, [2:03:47] I don't know if Chase Infinity, she might be one of those who's a little older than people realize. She might be. [2:03:51] I don't know, like, it depends on what your cutoff is. Is it 16 is your cutoff? [2:03:57] No, that's... [2:04:00] You went older? [2:04:01] And I'd probably go under 18. [2:04:04] Under 18, that's fine. Jason Penny was older than that. [2:04:07] obviously you could have the breakthrough star Oscar like somebody, but I guess that would be, it's he, they can get complicated. Like Noah's you, the, I think it's Noah's you, the kid from, from Hamnet. He, he's probably your winner. Would you have pet Oscars or no? [2:04:22] Oh, come on, Bill. No. Can you imagine like Hooch getting robbed in Turner and Hooch? Some other animal won. Sorry, Hooch. I don't know what to tell you. Hooch, you did too much campaigning. All the animals now are CGI anyway. Like, I don't even know what the real animal is. You'd have to prove that you used an actual living animal, which then creates all these moral and ethical concerns in your use of the animals. [2:04:49] I don't think it's worth it. So does Chalamet win an Oscar in the next five years? [2:04:53] Oh. [2:04:55] I mean, it's funny because I was going to ask you how many more Michael B. Jordan, how many more nominations Michael B. Jordan has. Oh, I think...

[2:05:04] Couple more. I mean, he's in that stage now. [2:05:08] The Oscars, they do make you earn it a little bit. You had to have been around... [2:05:13] I mean, Bradley Cooper, think about the people that do not have Academy Awards after like, [2:05:18] X number of. But what would Bradley Cooper have won for? [2:05:21] I'm not saying he was robbed. I'm just saying... Wedding Crashers? [2:05:25] although he was that's like there is a sneaky supporting oh there you go that's [2:05:32] So should there be an Oscar for comedy and should there be an Oscar for horror? [2:05:37] Should they just add those? And would you turn the TV off when they were awarding them? I would not. I personally would not. [2:05:43] if we are talking about going down this really bad idea route, no, because you know, it's true. There were no comedies. There were no best picture nominees that were like pure comedies this year for the most part. I mean, really at all. I mean, K-pop demon hunters is the funniest movie I saw last year and not nominated for any of the top awards. Um, [2:06:05] Original screenplay. What is wrong with y'all? [2:06:07] But I think that one of the interesting things to think about [2:06:12] is I thought I don't want a genre category that leave the like bring back the MTV movie awards for that. But what I think would be interesting, Bill, is. [2:06:22] is removing the genders from the acting categories. Oh, wow. [2:06:27] I think we got to call these people's bluff. [2:06:30] You're losing too much history with that though. [2:06:34] I think that's the only issue. I think you're creating new history. We're creating new history.

[2:06:38] That's a brain breaker for me. [2:06:40] I just think we got to try it. We got to try it. Because at least then we will know something about [2:06:47] this organization because it's not like it's the oscars it's not like [2:06:51] People, I mean, I'm sure there will be industry people who would hear a statement like this and be like, have you really thought this through? But I'm just saying, like, it's not like the Oscars doing it costs work. So who would have won if it was just one actor Oscar? [2:07:06] I think Jesse Buckley would have won. Oh, I remember what I was going to say when I brought up that Grantland thing. [2:07:12] Because if you notice, I pivoted beautifully, but I actually, I mean, I thought you remember. No, we've been talking about this for ever since we've been talking about the Oscars. [2:07:21] Not knowing the votes, [2:07:22] And this is a William Goldman thing. He was talking about all the time. Least the numbers. [2:07:27] It would have been amazing if Chalamet lost by like five votes. [2:07:31] Amen. [2:07:32] Can you imagine? I think Sinner's probably lost by five of us. [2:07:36] By the time we got to the weekend, everyone thought Sinners was going to win. Yeah. I mean, I'm telling you, if they'd had another week, I think so. I don't know. We could find out that Frankenstein came in second. There were too many awards. There were too many award shows in general. I said this to Sean last week. [2:07:54] You mean leading up to the Oscars? Yeah, too many awards and the Oscars... [2:07:58] It was too late. [2:07:59] It shouldn't be like right before March Madness. That's fucking crazy. Oh, oh. Put this in February. Like, let's get the year done and move on. [2:08:06] Well, I can tell you what does happen if you do that. Michael B. Jordan is not a best actor winner. I think people...

[2:08:14] I think people turned against Marty Supreme. We kind of talked about that. [2:08:19] And I also think it took people a second to really understand, including me, honestly, what it was that Michael B. Jordan was doing for that movie because the movie is so good that it doesn't even need him to be as good as it turns out he is. Right. Like we you, me and Van talked about this movie. We made it an instant rewatch. You made an instant rewatchables. And I you invited me in band to come talk about it. I. [2:08:46] What do we say? Who won the movie? [2:08:49] There were only two options. Who won the movie? We said Coogler because... We said Coogler. Because... [2:08:54] But partly because of that crazy deal he did. [2:08:58] And just how insane it is that he created this movie from scratch and got people to go see it. If you actually do the one sentence of, this is a vampire movie set in the 1930s. It's like the degree of difficulty was like a 9.95. But the Marty Supreme degree of difficulty was also high. I was just about to say, it did not need Michael B. Jordan to go out here and act a fool to try to get people to come see the movie. Right. [2:09:21] The way Marty Supreme needed Timothee Chalamet to do some interesting stuff to try to put some butts in some seats. Well, next year's Oscars is going to be... [2:09:32] A lot different because The Odyssey is just going to win 27 Oscars. No other movie should even come out. It's just going to be The Odyssey across the board winning everything. [2:09:42] I'm sighing and moaning and groaning right now. You'll be the first guy in the theater.

[2:09:51] Y'all know how I feel about Christopher Nolan. I'm just like, I'm not even opposed. I'm just, I don't know. We got to go. I kept you too long. I know. I'd love for you to come back on because there's TV stuff we got to talk about at some point. [2:10:04] Are you watching DTL? [2:10:08] Yeah, I saw of them. Or DTF, sorry. I saw of them. It's a fucking weird one. [2:10:12] I'm, [2:10:13] I don't like it. [2:10:17] I don't like it. We should talk about Love Story. Are you watching that? [2:10:24] Are you kidding? Uh-oh. [2:10:26] Am I watching that? [2:10:27] Okay. This is my wife's Super Bowl. [2:10:30] I was going to say. She's watching three times each episode. Watches it, goes to her mom's house, second watch, then third watch over the weekend. Oh, my God. This is like Carrie. She's been waiting her whole life for the show. We got to have... Okay, then I want to talk to Carrie because, I mean, I... [2:10:48] What a wild show. [2:10:50] And a wild show to have, and we can talk about it later, but like, it's a wild show to have now that the country and the world are falling apart. [2:10:58] that we... [2:10:59] I don't know what this Middle East situation is going to mean for us. It's definitely not good. I would say not promising. Not good. But... [2:11:09] Here we all are strung out [2:11:11] on a show about two, one very famous white person and his girlfriend, [2:11:17] And how much she does not want to get sucked into the vacuum of, of the thing that could probably kill her.

[2:11:24] Right. Fame and paparazzi, the whole thing. Plus this family that had a bunch of deaths. [2:11:31] Yeah, it just feels like this, I mean, in a completely accidental backhanded way, [2:11:37] Even more than, you know, heated rivalry solving other problems. This show is really about like this mess that we are in. And I don't even think it knows it, except it comes from Ryan Murphy's funhouse. I guarantee you it doesn't know it. [2:11:51] It might not now. Between this and heated robbery, I think this has been my wife's favorite TV year. It's only mid-March. The combo of those two already, if we can keep this pace the rest of the way. I got to be honest, banged out all three episodes of The Madison. [2:12:07] With my queen, Michelle Pfeiffer. Yeah, yeah. [2:12:10] It's a good one. [2:12:12] You told me to watch it. I will watch it. You love Michelle Pfeiffer as much as I do. It just looks like a catalog. You'll like it. [2:12:21] Listen, we have to support Michelle Pfeiffer and Gwyneth Paltrow for the rest of their careers. Those are our two. Yes. I mean, I'll do anything for a dope. I would love to bring you on after the last JFK love story. So mark it in your calendar now. Good to see you, Wesley Morris. Don't forget about Cannonball. [2:12:38] Uh, that's his podcast. I've been on it. I haven't been invited since I've only been on once. I'm always available. [2:12:44] was ready to go. [2:12:46] fret not. All right. Good to see you. All right. Nice to see you. Thank you. Bye. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to you, Billy and Wesley. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. Don't forget, two rewatchables went up this week to live and die in LA and a special mailbag.

[2:13:01] And the next episode of the Rewatchables is going to be the Nice Guys. [2:13:08] Yeah, that's going to be up on Monday night. I'm going to be back on Sunday after Celtics Timberwolves. We're going to be live on Netflix. [2:13:16] me and Zach Lowe. So it should be around 730 Pacific time when we're going live. So enjoy the weekend. Enjoy the basketball. I will see you on Sunday night. [2:13:40] We saw. [2:13:42] So I. [2:13:43] Bye. [2:13:45] Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call [redacted government id] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call [redacted phone] for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE. [2:14:15] or text HOPENY in New York for Louisiana. Call [redacted phone]. [2:14:22] Thanks to Fuel Meals, I haven't meal prepped in months. If I'm running from meeting to meeting, traveling, or finishing a workout, I've got something in the fridge that's going to help me stay on track. Fuel Meals makes protein-packed, chef-inspired meals that are ready in about three minutes. No shopping, no chopping, no cleanup. Check out the menu at FuelMeals.com and get 40% off your first order with code FMSAVE40. Again, that's FuelMeals.com, code FMSAVE40.

[2:14:52] Feel the rush. Live thoroughbred racing is happening now at Laurel Park, the player's track. Every Friday through Sunday, the gates open at 11 a.m. and the action starts at noon. Free admission, fast-paced racing, and real wagering excitement from start to finish. Pick your horses, place your bets, chase the win. From live racing and simulcast action to great food, special events, and nonstop sports viewing, Laurel Park is where the action lives. Come, win, play. Visit laurelpark.com.